I just bought a DSR-20 from B&H Photo, because it has a time code display. It cost a little more than the DSR-11, but, oh well. The one thing that the DSR-11 has is the ability to play PAL. Can't do this with the -20. DVCAM is the Sony proprietary DV format. There's no performance diff between DV and DVCAM, that I can see. It has a better recording pitch, but, I don't notice any improvements. Both units have a 12v capability....good insurance for me in case the record head fails on my XL1s. I'd really like to record to HD, but, I find the Firestore plus Firewire drive a bit too bulky.

I'm envious, Bill. Please update us if you experience any drops using DV-CAM (if you use that mode for mastering). I get an occasional one with my DV-2000, and I've always thught that DV-CAM would be less prone to that.

I have the Firestore, but my confidence isn't there yet. I've had some success with it, but on more than one occasion, video appeared to be recording to the FW drive (1-hour continuous), but when I tried to access the files, there were just a bunch of 32K files, with no data in them. Fortunately, I was running a tape. I'm still experimenting, trying to figure that one out.

DVCam is a step up on the prefessional ladder from MiniDV. It is used a lot in ENG. DVCam cameras have a smaller compression ratio than MiniDV and produce a better image (if the camera operator knows what they are doing).
A good sight to go and check out comparisons of the various digital format cameras (and shooting video for eventual transfer to film) is Scott Billups' site http://www.pixelmonger.com

It can get complicated at times. If you really want to be confused, you could check out his book "Digital Moviemaking" as well. He contradicts himeself sometimes (compared to the info he puts on his site), but he's been around since the first video cameras started coming out, and has invented some advancements (at least oneadopted by - I think it was Sony).

Derrick Nelson

Sorry to contradict, but this just isn't true. DV and DVCAM use the same compression codecs at 5:1 compression. Audio is locked on the DVCAM. The rest of the differences are all in the storage format on tape and tape speed. I would sure like to know how to produce a better image with the DV codec(re:less compression).

My fault - I got DVCam and DVCPro confused (too many formats out there) - DVCPro has a compression ratio of 4.1:1.

Derrick

DVCAM
 

From what I understand mindv, dvcam and dvcpro use the same compression ratio. Dvcpro50 is a better ratio. I shoot on minidv with an xl1 and master finished projects to dvcam because it has a higher tape speed making is a little more stable and less prone to drop outs. There is no difference however in the image quality of mindv and dvcam, it just depends on your camera head.

No, DVCPro is definitely 4.1:1 compression ratio. The color sampl;ing is the same, however - a disappointing 4:1:1 color bit-sample rate. (disappointing at least for someone who wants to transfer shorts shot on video to film).

Derrick

dvc
 

Panasonic's website lists dvcpro as 5:1 and dvcpro50 as 3:3:1

That's right. Check Adam Wilt's DV FAQ at www.adamwilt.com.

DVCPro50 is a different type of DV standard called DV50. It refers to a bandwidth of 50mbs, as opposed to DV, DVCAM and DVCPro which are all known as DV25 formats, with a bandwidth of 25mbs.

Again, the Adam Wilt DV FAQ is more or less the definitive explanation in layman's terms of the different digital video formats.

Formats
 

Thanks Chris,

Adam's is by far the best explanation I have found on the digital formats.

I don't know - I was looking at Scott Billups' book and website (he invented some of the technology that is standard in DV cameras today)
He shows the compression ratios for the following formats:

MiniDV 5:1
DVCPro 4.1:1
DVCPro-50 3.3:1
Digital Beta 2:1
D-1 No compression
DVCPro-HD 6.7:1
HD-Cam/24P (simply listed as low)
D-5 No Compression

He goes into more detail about the different formats - this is taken from the chart. The book has a 2000 copyright so sould be fairly current. (Although he does state that specifications - like prices - change constantly)

It doesn't matter too much, the difference isn't that significant

dv
 

As you say it doesn't matter too much. I was looking at the specs on several minidv cameras and they all seem to show similar things such as this jvc camera that list the following info for minidv recording:

Video:

Video signal recording format: 8bit, 13.5 MHz, 4:1:1 (NTSC)/4:2:0 (PAL) component recording

Could you list the URL for Scott Billup's website, I would be interested in giving it a look over.

Billups website is http://www.pixelmonger.com
His book is "Digital Moviemaking: A Butt-Kicking, Pixel Twisting Vision of the Digital Future and How to Make Your Next Movie on Your Credit Card"

most people just refer to it as "Digital Moviemaking" for some strange reason. : )

D. Nelson

Awhile back Vic Owen asked for an update on dropouts with a SONY DCR-20. To date, I haven't experienced any dropouts. The DSR20 seems to work flawlessly, even in transcoding back to DVCAM from DV, which I've been using for mastering. If you can stomach the price, this is a nice solution. I've also been pre-mastering my DV tapes with timecode info using this deck. Transport mechanism response is MUCH quicker than the old DV cam I was using before. I'm running the "monitor" output to my ATi Radeon 8500DV input box and getting a nice monitor/preview window on my computer.

Thanks for remembering! I'm still pondering the purchase of either the DSR-11 or DSR-20. Both appear to be fine devices. I holding off until I see what kind of reliability I get from my Firestore. I just sent it in for a firmware upgrade, and I hope, among other things, it fixes its tendency to record empty files on the FW drive. Hopefully, my confidence level will go up to the point I don't feel the need for a backup tape machine when shooting.

I'd really like to get the DSR-20...but it looks like I'll get the DSR-11 instead because of the price difference.

There's one bit of information I'm wondering about that I can't find, though...is it "free voltage"? (100-240...referring to the DC plug adapter that comes with it)

[Incidentally...for those of you who are also interested in the DSR-11, I found a great PDF brochure and have put it on my domain in case anyone wants to download it. Just point your browser to http://zchildress.com/dsr11.pdf ]

MiniDV decks
 

I just use whatever old camera I've upgraded from. That used to be a TRV-9...At the moment that's a TRV-20. We shoot with a VX2000. When I want something new...that VX2000 will become our deck. So far so good!

Sony GV-D1000
 

I dont know if this is a deck more than what they advertise it as a video walkman. I have it and it works great for my needs. You can connect the XL1s to it and have a secondary recording device thru firewire. And you can use it as an lcd monitor as it has a 4 inch lcd.

Sony has replaced the DSR 20 with the DSR 25, it now does Pal as well
"http://bpgprod.sel.sony.com/bpcnav/app/99999/16/113/65183.99999.print.BPC.html?reload=1"

I'm waiting for Sony's release of the new DSR-25 deck in June. Aimed specifically for the NLE market, it's a follow-on product to the DSR-20, is switchable between PAL/NTSC, has timecode display, phone jack, audio levels, a 2-inch LCD for monitoring picture content, plays AND records on miniDV, full-size DV, and DVCAM. List price is $4100, so street price should be about $3600. You can store up to 270 minutes on a full-size DV cassette (184 on DVCAM), plus these tapes are more robust than a miniDV cassette. Another big advantage of using a deck is in black-striping tapes (laying down continuous timecode before recording video on the tape, kind of like formatting a computer disk), thus saving even more camcorder wear and tear. Here's a link to Sony's description of the DSR-25:

http://bpgprod.sel.sony.com/bpcnav/app/99999/16/113/65183.99999.product.BPC.html

Can you believe that that particular section of the Sony site is unavailable to Mac users? Talk about cutting out the market. I wonder what percentage of DVers use Macs...and what percentage of those don't bother to go back to the Sony site ever again.

Even my 15 year-old nieces' personal web page is available to all platforms. Perhaps the Sony webmaster needs to consult with my niece to get up to speed.

John,
Indeed, Sony's professional products Web site is a disgrace and should be considered a red-faced embarassment to that company. Other than complete lack of management attention to detail there's no excuse for its technical and content condition.

Whoa: Don't hold it against all of Sony that some idiot in the company hired a still-more-idiotic web designer to do that job for them. It's awful, it's ridiculous, it's stupid that Mac Users cannot access with IE, but all you have to do is switch to Netscape and it works fine. I keep both browsers open as Sony's webmeister is not the only stupid fool out there....
Scott Shuster
WorldDance New York

;) Don't worry Scott...I'm not sticking pins in my Sony products and doing a hex dance right now or anything. I love their products. But you've gotta admit...for Sony that's a pretty pathetic web site.

Speaking of pathetic...you said the "N" word...brrrrrr. I avoid it as much as possible. Apparently most of the rest of the world does, too. According to recent statistics, 92% use one of the IE browser versions. The other 8% is split between the others. All the more reason for Sony to check statistics and get with the program.

Anyway...looping back to the original post...I'm interested in the new deck coming out. Thanks for the heads up, Ian.

DV players
 

So I'm in the market for a dv player, yet know nothing about them. I really don't want to spend too much ( under $250 if possible), but am looking for something that is a good prosumer product. I'll be using it to play dv tapes on my tv and possible to make dubs. Any ideas which are the best, prices, and where I can find 'em? Thanks for the help in advance.

The cheapest I've seen is $600-ish.
A better idea might be to go buy a cheap miniDV camcorder and use that instead. Then you have a deck AND extra camera. I saw a Samsung miniDV for about $500us recently.

Mini Dv Decks
 

Just wondering what "cheaper" minidv decks are recommended if any around here? I'm trying to save the wear and tear on my new camera (GL2) if it ever shows up.

I'm using a JVC SR-VS30. NOT pro quality (prosumer) but works well to save wear on the camera. Can also dub directly to VHS (and SVHS) from DV so provides a quick easy way to provide rough to clients.

The cheaper miniDV decks are actually just low end miniDV camcorders. Much cheaper than an acutal deck. I use a Canon ZR40 for my deck.

So the ZR40 holds up ok under constant use as a deck?
If so that makes alot of sense giving me a small camera to take into not so welcome places.

Felix, this is a common question here, and there are all sorts of opinions and reviews already posted. For more answers to your question, you might consider doing a search using the link in my sig.

As Robert says, there have been numerous discussions on this topic.

I've only put about 30 hours on it so far, so I can't say anything about it's durability yet. However, I have no complaints...
And hey, it's a camera too! I use it for family, fun, and inconspicuous shooting.

Just to add my 2 cents: I have and am happy with a Sony DSR-11. Not the cheapest deck, but, inexpensive in comparison.

I am thinking about purchasing the Sony GVD-1000.

Its expensive, however, it could double as a 'Out in the Field' monitor.

PROS - - > Portable, 4" LCD Screen, Firewire, fairly small footprint
CONS - - > Price, Price, Price!

I was thinking about going the camera route also. The prices are coming down.

Cheers!

Derrick

Capture Deck?
 

I was wondering who uses what as their edit deck for the video shot with their XM2? I use a MV6i ( Elura 50 NTSC ver) that does quite well with the video but if I have shot anything in LP mode the sound won't be picked up. I find its better to beat on the relatively cheap MV6i's heads and motor then to use my expensive XM2 for everything i.e. capture, shooting , editing , and playback. I also do the same thing with my Pana DVX100 and have a cheaper DVC923 to use for playback ( my NTSC cameras) I know a lot of people use expensive MiniDV decks that are quite expensive so I figured why not just buy a cheap camera that I can use as a second as well if need be.

Just wondering what you professionals use, yeah I'm getting paid like a professional but I'm still learning too.

Professionals use a "real" tape deck instead of a camcorder if
they need to read tapes. I just use my camera since I don't
have one, yet. Do keep in mind that recording in LP mode can
be a bit dangerious. A lot of cams have trouble reading that.
For the little extra money I'd always shoot in SP mode (which I do)

Thanxs Rob
 

Yeah I rarely record in LP mode but when I'm doing a really long conference I sometimes have to. As far as the decks go , I would rather pay just 500 for a small camera to use for capturing and editing then 1000 bucks for a full pro deck but hey thats why I'm freelance, I have to be cheap.

Playback units? Options?
 

If not the camera, then what? Not sure what my options are and would appreciate your input. Thanks.

I record in my XL-1 and play back to the computer or VCRs in my Panasonic AG-DV2000 MiniDV Deck. There are several MiniDV decks available but expect prices of $1000+.

I priced a JVC DV camera this morning locally at $389. It's tiny, so my wife and kids will love it. Can anyone see how I could go wrong buying this cheap camera for limited family use and as a playback deck? Sure would save some wear and tear on the high end units, wouldn't it?