Darn. There I go mixing up analog and digital technology again.

Perhaps I should have said that when you are playing any tape, you are not rearranging the particles on the tape but just reading them, passively.

But, perhaps the reason you might experience more problems when re-recording a used tape is that you must rearrange those metal particles to store different information. And during that rearranging process the metal particles might become more prone to drop-outs. After all they are just metal evaported bits bonded to some sort of mylar backing, if I am not confusing analog with digital again.

Does that make more sense, Tom?

Mini DV Tapes for HD
 

Will regular tapes work as well for HD in camcorder as an HD tape????

I assume you mean HDV, and by regular, you mean DV. Yes they will work. But I wouldn't do it. Very good quality DV tapes will be fine. But they cost $8-$10 each anyway.

Tape rules:

Don't waste your money on HDV tapes. There is no difference in picture quality between these and regular MiniDV tapes -- it's all digital. Sony Premiums are fine and can be had online for a little over $2 each.

Tape manufacturers often say that HDV tapes are built to higher standards than regular MiniDV tapes. That's frequently claimed but so far no one has ever presented any statistical evidence, anywhere, that this is so.

Even if it is true you need to do a cost-benefit analysis to decide if overpaying for all your tapes is worth the reduced chance of a dropout, especially if such dropouts are easily cut around (as they are in all the shooting I do). If it's a once in a lifetime event and you want to maximize your chances of having every frame be perfect, then the more expensive tapes may be worth it for you.

When I first started shooting DV I used the TDKs available at Costco for about $2.50 each. I used a couple of hundred without a dropout or any other problem. Later I switched to the Sony Premiums because even with shipping they were cheaper. I’m on my fourth case of 100 and have had maybe three dropouts total in two years. Costco now sells the Sony Premiums instead of the TDKs.

Don't mix tape brands. Sony uses a different lubricant than others and switching could gum up your heads. Run a cleaning tape for 10 seconds and then pick one brand and stick to it.

Never re-use your tapes. They should go through your camera exactly twice: once when you shoot and once when you capture.

Yes, the data is digital. But the tape stock, and magnetic media are not. Having come from analog audio recording, I can assure you that differences DO exist.

Now, your second comment is interesting. It is quite likely that if you use a tape for 2 passes, you'll never see a problem. However, in a commercial environment, where we shoot, capture, archive, then get asked to re-capture 3 months later, and perhaps 2 years later, and perhaps again down the road, it certainly makes a difference.

I needed to pull some data out of archive this week. Something from almost 4 years ago. Guess what the head of the tape looked like?

My suggestion to tape shooters:

Shoot on whatever you want, but pre-roll bars and black for a minute, and archive on quality tape. If it's important enough to save, it's important enough to save on good tape so you can pull it back later if need be.

Analog is completely different, as you know, and differences do exist there. Buy with digital all the image quality will be identical no matter what you use. Obviously a better-constructed tape shell stands a better chance of working for a longer time. The actual tape that goes into these shells comes off the same spool; the accepted wisdom is the more expensive tapes come from the middle of the spool while cheaper tapes come from the edges.

Either you have a drop-out or you don't. That's the gamble you take deciding which tape to buy. But there is no difference in audio or video quality; it would be quite impossible in a digital medium.

Obviously you might want to capture again from an archived tape; that's why you would never re-use it. That's my point, addressed to those who think they can save $2 by shooting over an old tape again. It's false economy.

Equally obviously, if you are charging (and marking up appropriately) the client for your tape stock, why not go with the most expensive tape you can find? But for personal use this makes no sense.

Yep. I re-use tape, but after 2-passes it's labeled as "scratch" and used as such. Honestly, it's a RARE occurance I touch tape now. Only from archives.

I tended not to buy the most expensive I could find, only the Panasonic MQ level tapes, which worked marvelously.

The topic of tapes in HDV/DV world is endlessly debated on forums and the general consensus is that there is no consensus. For every person who swears by one habit or practice, someone else will insist you should do the exact opposite. In our shrinking economy it might not be prudent to spend $20 on HDV-branded tapes where a $4 tape will suffice- on the other hand, if you are a paid professional who can't risk one horrendous dropout on your footage, the $20 tape might be well worth it and is something you can build into your cost of doing business.

I used DV tapes for awhile with my HDV camera (Sony V1U). But after some really bad dropouts (almost devastating) I switched to HDV tape stock. I haven't had a drop out since. I use Sony VG 63 DV/HDV Tape which is only about $7 a tape. It's worth the extra in my opinion.

And this is why I now archive to Blu-Ray. Cheaper media, no dropouts.

The whole point of developing HDV was to use *exactly* the same physical and logical technology while varying only the way data are encoded. For the likes of Sony to go to all the trouble of sticking with the same transport mechanism, control logic, digital transport protocol, bit rate etc (obviously in the interests of cost) but then turn around and develop entirely new tape formulations is very hard to believe.

A high quality DV tape will perform just fine in an HDV unit. Lower quality tapes won't because MPEG is much less tolerant towards the higher levels of data corruption that may be encountered.

Lots of good points raised here and I'm with Adam in post #3. There's no such thing as DV tape or DVCAM tape or HDV tape - it's all just tape. And at the price we pay for even the expensive cassette you're certainly not getting any human inspection, so every time you pop a new one into your deck you're taking a risk with an untested bit of kit.

So my only divergence from Adam is that when I reuse a tape I know it's a good one, I know I've tested it, I know it's been burnished smooth by two or more passes. And I archive onto tape because I know how reliable it'll be for the 7th or 10th pass in the future, when I want to access that data again.

Each to his own.

tom.

A year ago I was reading Sony’s professional tape specifications (pdf) regarding the HDV tapes. I just spend an hour trying to find it on the net, to no avail. But if I remember correctly, the difference between the Sony's DV(CAM) and HDV tapes is the fact that the HDV tapes have higher RF output, making them less prone to errors (dropouts).

Rob

I suspect you are refering to the DigitalMaster series of tapes (Sony Digital Master - Home , http://www.okno-tv.ru/files/equip/eq_2836_126.pdf). These have two magnetic layers instead of one. The tapes are branded equally for DVCAM, DV and HDV. And at $17 a pop for a 63min tape, quite reasonable for critical/unrepeatable recordings.

I've been using those Sony Digital Mastering tapes for some time now. They've gone up from about $15 to around $18 now, but that's still cheap for an hour's recording. I haven't seen a dropout yet. For home movies and fun stuff I used the cheaper Sony HDV tapes, for $7-$8 each, but now I do that sort of thing with a little pocketcam Sony TG1.

Especially for those of us who remember BetaSP at 30 minutes for 30 dollars. <grin>

Or how about me with my pre-striped Kodachrome 40 Super-8 sound film. That was 3 mins 20 seconds for $15 back in the 1980s

Before that I was paying about $145 a roll for 10 minutes of 16mm film, including processing and workprinting. When I first got into video 2" and then 1" tape was around 2 bucks a minute. We thought that was amazingly cheap. Then 3/4" was around $30 for 30 minutes, falling to half that as Betacam came out. Thirty bucks for 30 minutes of Betacam SP was pretty standard for a long time. Eventually we were paying in the low 20s. Good tape is cheap today, but I don't think that cheap tape is always good.

Tape Mixing
 

Hi there, these are my experiences.
I have been taking video for about 20 years and are now at tape 375.
I started with standard 8 mm, them Hi8, them Digital8 and now for the last 4 years or so MiniDV.
Someone some 20 years ago made a comment in an electronics magazine that there was noting wrong with using different brands of tape, as long as you did not use one brand long enough so only one type of oxides and the like would build up.
I used this philosophy right through the 8mm tapes and rarely had to clean heads. The same goes for the various video recorders (BETA and VHS) I have owned.
With my last camera I changed my routine and only used one brand of tape. This went OK for about 1.5 years at which time I started to experience picture and sound drop outs (picture blocky and sound a buzz) for about 1 second at the time. Sometimes it happened once per tape sometimes twice and sometimes not at all, using a cleaning tape would clear it for one or two tapes and then it would be back.
I changed back to my previous routine and started again to mix different brands of tape and the drop outs have all but gone.

What are the experiences of others video camera users?

MiniDv tapes, like everything else, have different quality levels and everybody has his/her favorite brand. It's not dv vs hdv, because the tapes are all the same format.

The issue with sticking with one brand is that some tapes use a wet lube (Sony, Panasonic, as I am told) and others use a dry lube (Maxell, JVC, etc). Either one is fine but if you switch back and forth the mix of dry lube and wet lube makes mud and clog your heads. So you pick one type and stick with it to avoid the mixing....or so the urban legend goes.

FWIW our team goes through 100-150 tapes a month and we are perfectly happy with the one brand we have been using for three years without dropouts or problems, we are superstitious enough to keep doing it. (It doesn't matter, but it's Maxell DV Pro, I'm not recommending that specifically, just to stick with a brand that works for you) //Battle Vaughan/miamiherald.com video team

changing DV tape brand
 

The problem is, that in my case, staying with the same brand worked for over a year and than I started to have consistent trouble with drop outs.
Since I have reverted to my previous practice of using several brands of tape the drop outs have all but disappeared.

Currently I am using Sony, Panasonic, JVC and TDK.

How many people stick with one brand of tape for their home VCR?
Now a lot of people will point out how much smaller the MiniDV tape is, and that is right but small is only relative and the old VHS tape is much smaller than the Umatic tape or some other formats that came before that.

FWIW Panasonic uses dry lubricant. As far as I know, only Sony has used wet lube on its tapes in recent times. I have not been able to find out if Sony uses wet or dry lub on their high dollar HDV tapes.

What is the best tape? I have a friend who goes through a lot of MiniDV tapes and he will use anything but Sony and he switches brands often. I have another friend will only use Sony Premium tapes and he is absolutely certain that they work the best. I think his opinion is mainly based on price. But, he has been shooting on HDV longer than I have and he says he has never had a single drop out. On my VX1000 and later on my VX2100, I mixed tape brands all the time and never had any issues when using new tapes. But I did experience problems with used tapes. My impression was that most of the problems I had with used tapes were mainly Sony. But I didn't really document it. Since I have started shooting on HDV, I have used Panasonic 99% of the time. But I did use maybe 1 or 2 tapes that were some other brand. So far no drop outs at all.

Who knows......

changing DV tape brand
 

You confirm that changing brands of tape does not have to produce problems.
Anyone that has had my experience, that changing brands had a positve effect?

Yes. I switched from Panasonic AMQ to Sony's PHDVM and quit having dropouts. That's the only reason to switch, in my opinion. If one brand of tape starts giving dropouts, clean the heads and move on.

changing DV tape brand
 

I suppose my last sentence should have read:

Is there anyone that has had the experience, that constantly changing the MiniDV tape brand used in a video camera drastically reduces drop outs?

Adam

I agree with you that you should never use tapes over and over again but you state here that you should only use it "exactly" twice. Why exactly , I for example use my tapes 3 to 4 times only and never had any problems.

Stelios

Only because that's the minimum possible when shooting and capturing. More passes will likely work fine and are sometimes necessary, but every pass increases your odds of a problem.

Don't forget that using a new $2 or a $10 tape also increases your odds of a problem. You're expecting a highly complex, 28 component part mechanical assembly to be perfect, straight out of the box.

At these prices there's no human inspection whatsoever. If you've used a tape - in other words inspected it thoroughly yourself - then that's a far 'better' tape than a new, untested one.

You'd not dream of using an untested microphone for a shoot. Don't dream of using untested tape, then.

tom.

well that means its better to use the "tested" tape again than using a new one as Adam suggested! the question is then, are the odds more to find a problem with a new tape or with a used one that has been passed 4 or 6 times?

Stelios

That's correct. Of course you can't go on re-cycling for ever, you will have to break open new tapes now and again. My point is that such a tape should be used on a 'repeatable' shoot, where should a fault occur the shot can be captured again. The untested microphone can also be used on this shoot as take two can rectify any problems that arise.

Weddings and real-time events meant you only have one shot. Use untested kit if you're the type that doesn't buckle up on the drive there.

tom.

This makes no sense at all to me. The odds of getting a "bad" tape are far lower than the odds of actually creating one by running it through your cam unnecessarily. Precisely how do you "test" a tape? What do you do, roll an hour of bars and then sit and watch the whole thing to make sure there isn't a dropout? And what guarantee is this, as the odds of a dropout increase with use -- the first pass could be fine but you could be creating a problem for the second pass. And this doesn't even take into account the extra wear on your heads and tape transport if you effectively shoot twice as much tape as necessary.

This is up there with the myth of pre-blacking a tape, which is not only unnecessary but potentially harmful (timecode-wise).

Normally I defer to all Tom advice, as he's right about everything, but this time I just don't get it.

I'm just quoting this to get it up in print again :-))

Each to his own, good people. My decks are kept glinty-clean, I don't film in adverse conditions, I change tapes with gentle care and often I run the camera for an hour non-stop. The tapes are 'checked' in that the footage (B cam often) is transferred to the pc with ne'er a dropout. That is indeed the 'dangerous' second pass.

I agree - don't black.

Let's take mechanically automated tape production as 99.9% perfect - a wildly optimistic figure when we pay so little for so complex an assembly. That means for every 1000 sold one is duff in some way or other. Millions and millions must be sold, right?

So out there, on the shelves, waiting to be bought, are the duff ones. Every time I crack one open I pray it's ok. It's a third the cost of a sandwich, and I've had a few iffy sandwiches in my time.

tom.

I normally run a minute of bars at the head of each tape before I shoot anyway, so maybe this suffices mechanically. I suppose a quick FF/REW could also verify the mechanics of the tape as well.

But dropout-wise, I just don't see a way to do this.

And don't get me started on the sandwich thing....

Mini DV Tapes vs Mini HD Tapes
 

I just purchased the Z5 and used it this pass weekend.
I used it with Sony HD Tapes. I was told that I can use
regular mini dv tapes and shoot in HD.
Has anybody shot regular mini dv tapes in HD
and if so how was the content?

You're kidding, right? That question has been answered a half-dozen times in this thread alone...

If you don't want to read the whole thread, start with post #44...

general rules
 

I agree with the opinions of the people had used different kinds of tapes. In my opinion, as general rules, I propose these:
1.-Use high quality HDV tapes (more expensive of course) if you shoot critical events(historical, documentary, etc.) That's way you can use years after without problem
2.-Use high quality DV tapes (less expensive) if you shoot not important events at all.

3.- In any case don't reuse these tapes. Only once.

With this basic rules, you have the 99,9 % garantie no problems in your recordings.

Thank you very much for this forum.

Well on friday I recorded on to a Tape and got a drop out, a big nasty one second type where the audio just drops away (tried capture several times to verify a drop out).This was a brand new just unwrapped tape!
So as a trial I then reused the tape, taping over the area where there had been a drop out.
I then played the tape back and low and behold a good tape no drop outs!
so is the old used once tape a now good old tape or should I throw it away and try a new tape:) ! thought provoking?

You don't say what make or type of tape you were using John, but the reality is that you're buying a highly complex, multi-part assembly for very little money indeed - about a third the price of a sandwich.

So with no human inspection there will be failures straight from the box, and as the first pass generally burnishes off the high spots, the second pass (usually the replay of that tape) is when it's at its best.

I wouldn't throw away that tape, though I might be tempted to use it on a two camera shoot just-in-case. I think you were just unlucky, and the debris that got carried to your spinning heads has now disappeared.

tom.

Tom I agree totally with you, the point I was trying to make was that the so called new tape isnt always the best and the tape is now in my camera box ready for use confident that its a good one, but for a multi camera shoot or test footage.
For critical work I still use the sonyHDV masters. FYI the tape was a sony premium, I use them all the time.
cheers john

I've used the Sony DVM63 (HD) tape for one particular project and I haven't been impressed. Seems like the same amount of drop-out occurs as with the cheaper Sony miniDV tapes. I can only hope that maybe there's a slight difference in noise levels but who's to say?