I know this is going to come with a bunch of arguments, but I really suggest spending the money on a hard-drive based recorder.

This is the problem with tape and HD media. Dropouts are common as hell - everyone's experienced at least one, and they always cost time and money - if the scene isn't completely ruined by them.

I understand that tapes are great for long term storage and backup. But I would never, every consider going back to using tape for my primary video recording solution. Dropouts are just too... damn... common.

Brian, I agree but the problem is the cost of getting two firestores, flash based drives.
I now record to pc when filming single camera ice skating events because I cant afford a drop out, but weddings etc thats just not practical.
The sony flash card recorder looks good but again buying two along with the extra batteries and media makes it a non starter.
So for jobs where I can only use tape I just buy the best tape stock and use two cameras.
Im also starting to believe that once a tape has been used and you know its a good one, then use it again.
cheers john

You paid how much for the cameras? The $2000 for two Firestores shouldn't be that much in comparison.

I put off buying an XH-A1 when given the oppertunity simply because Canon still has the damn thing recording to tape.

Slightly more over here Im afraid... plus enough batteries for two.
4180 | Focus Enhancements Firestore FS-C (FSC) - 60GB DTE HDD recorder + mounting kit for Canon HDV Camcorders

Thats a whole lot of sony master tapes.
time I got my moneys worth it will be time to upgrade cameras( possibly)

However having recorded direct to hard drive before ( spare pc, cost £200) the benefits are staggering so yes the canons are the last hdv tape cameras i will buy.

This is a good point: not all dropouts are the same. There are record dropouts and playback dropouts.

Say a piece of shmutz gets on the tape as you record. That segment of tape will not get recorded--a record dropout. No amount of playing it back will regain that segment of information. But rerecording that same tape may result in a good recording a second time as the shmutz may have moved (likely to another spot on the tape).

Say a piece of magnetic material is missing from a section of tape. Again, a record dropout and no amount of replaying it will find that material.

Now, say the tape was pristine during record. A piece of shmutz gets on the tape during playback. Replaying the tape may remove the shmutz and allow sucessful playback. However, it is quite likely that the shmutz might get moved somewhere else (as above).

Or, say a piece of material flakes off during playback: this may as well be a record dropout--no amount of replaying will regain this information.

It's digital, so that is not possible. The data is either there or it isn't -- it's all 1s and 0s. "Better" S/N ratio is an artifact of analog tapes.

Ok to record in HD on non-HD miniDV tapes?
 

I just bought a XHA1s and got both SD and HD tapes for it. But I recently read that to shoot HD you do not need HD miniDV tapes. You can use the standard miniDV tapes. The HD tapes are supposed to give fewer drop-outs than the standard tapes. With DV-AVI a drop out would be hardly noticed, but as HDV MPEG2 is a compressed format and the picture relies on information in a number of frames any drop-outs can give a second or so of bad video. But if you do not want to risk problems with dropouts, then use HD miniDV tapes.

Sound correct?

yes, and more importantly, once you pick a brand, stick with it. Changing brands can cause clogged heads. If you must change brands, run a cleaning tape before the change.

The format is digital, not analog. It's a series of ones and zeroes. Marketing hype and misinformation aside, a good-quality DV tape will do just as wel as a "special" HDV tape.


J.

There are so many threads on this subject already.

Follow up...
 

After reading through this entire thread and seeing that this question was not answered, it seems that it may not be important, but I feel I should ask again anyway. Within the thread, there are differences described between HDV's and DV's materials used, so it seems that this could potentially create some conflict within the brand. Does someone need to worry when switching between HDV and DV when using the same brand? Would cleaning the heads be a good idea when performing such a switch? Also, would it be necessary to have a cleaning tape that aligns with the brand of the tapes someone is using, since a sony tape cleaner might be better designed for cleaning a "wet" lubricant off the heads?

Forgive me, as I am just a lowly newbie looking for answers and I would appreciate any feedback on these questions.

Thanks, Justin.

You can use any make of head-cleaning tape you like. They're all pretty abraisive, so it matters not a lot which one you choose.

And you can safely swap between (say) Sony's Premium, DVCAM, HDV and Excellence tapes without going through the head-cleaning tape phase first. I know - I've been doing it for years.

tom.

Fair enough.
 

Thank you for the timely response. Now I can put my order in through B&H for all my extra goodies! I appreciate it Tom.

Justin

To all those that have posted answers - Thank you. I had a Sony HC9HDR replaced by Sony Aus as the Tech guys had no idea about drop outs. The original one worked fine with Sony and TDK tapes but things turned south with JVC tapes. When I got the replacement Camera I had not yet read the invaluable info posted here and again used Sony, TDK and JVC tapes and yes it happened again. Since reading this thread I have run a head cleaning cassette through the machine but I still have a few drop outs. As I do underwate video I only get one chance to shoot whever is there and a drop out at the wrong moment. Any other ways to avoid the drop outs?

The more I read about JVC tapes, the more I back off.

Obviously if you're making BD you'll have to shoot HDV underwater Joseph, but if you're simply down-converting to edit then have you considered shooting in SD to begin with?

Then if you can get dropouts the individual frames can have their sparklies repaired in Photoshop. You won't be doing that with half a second of lost HDV footage.

tom.

I tend to agree as I also have had problems with the cheaper JVC tapes.

Hi Tom, Appreciate your quick response. I am an amateur but love underwater videography. I had a JVC SD Camera but it has been replaced with the Sony HC9. I could not go back to SD. With the URPro filters the Video often appears better than the dive. This is only posible watching it in full HD. I Edit using Pinnacle 12 and burn files to AVCHD on DVD.

Other than cutting out the drop outs how else would the drop outs be "Fixed/Tweaked". Any other advice would be greatly appreciated - am off to PNG andBali in July so any tricks would be great.

There is no fix, no tweak. If it's not been recorded to tape, it's not been recorded - simple as that.

Use a head cleaner, then stick to one brand of tape. Maybe you should've looked at cameras that record AVCHD direct to SDHC card?

Tom - Hind sight is a wonderful thing. Had I found this thread between cameras (so to speak) I probably would have gone to SDHC. Thanks for the advice

Martin - I noticed you are a fellow Perth Person. Do you by any chance Video underwater?

Mini DV tapes vs Mini HD Tapes.
 

Ah I re-found the thread!
I read this thread awhile back and had to give it a try. I was very skeptical since I would think the technologies would be incompatible.
My wife had just bought 100 SONY MiniDV Excellence on eBay for $4.00+ each
(I wish she'd use the $2 Premiums, but she needs the IC memory chip) regardless, I gave it a try and it works perfectly! No drops, nothing, its perfect. I haven't cleaned my heads or anything. Now I use the SONY Excellence exclusively, I don't see myself going back to HDV tapes anytime soon.

I would have never tried it...I'm thankful I did!
Thanks,

Rick

Mini DV tapes vs Mini HD Tapes
 

Joseph.
Sorry for the late reply, I did not get a notification until now.
I take video of dance competitions and my own social events.
Regards,

Martin