HD mini DV or "standard" mini DV
 

I've got a new Canon XL-H1 and about to buy some tape.

What is the real difference between the Sony HD mini DV cassette and their
Premium mini DV cassette.

What is the difference between any brand of HD mini DV tape and a "standard" mini DV tape, besides price?

Am I doing an harm to the H1 or "short changing" myself by using Sony's Premium mini DV tape, which I've been using for years? The marketing gurus put HD on the case and claim that it is neccesary to pay 3x the price over non-HD tape. Is it?

Some of you may respond; you've paid $10K for the camera and your worried about paying $10 for tape, its the cheapest thing you'll be buying for the camera. I'm just wondering what are we getting for the money.

I've searched around and couldn't really find an answer.

Cheers,
D

This issue has been raised many times before. First, any MiniDV tape will record HDV. There should be no difference as to what you get off of it in terms of image quality.

I personally think HD labeling is a sales gimic, but others indicate the highest quality HDV tapes may prevent drop outs more common to HDV.

I think the consensus is that you should choose a brand of tape, and keep using it so you don't run into reaction between lubricant types on different tapes that can clog heads....

Despite that, I am sure there are a lot of people out there who mix tapes, and never have a problem.... and use headcleaner tapes if they do.

I ve had an FX1 for about 14 months now, and shot may 100 hours on it, but haven't had to even run a head cleaner on it. I ve used primarily Panny and TDK tapes, because I get them in bricks or blister packs cheaper than others, and haven't experienced, issues. Others will tell different stories... So go for it.....

I just back from the XL-H1 forum and the thread "Pre-purchase Jitters and ?s". I read the thread right after I posted my thread and there seem to be a few people using Premium tapes (non-HD) in their H1s without any problems. I'd just like to a clear explanation of the difference.

I agree with you about the HD labeling sales gimic. Just like in thread I mentioned, the salesman selling a HD UV filter.

I work with another cameraman and we've been using the Sony Premium tapes in our XL-1s and XL-2 and we haven't run into any major problems. We buy the tapes in bulk so it would be nice to continue doing so, without having to buy two different types of tapes.

Cheers,
D

I've been using Sony's Premium (blue packaged ones) since day one of my FX1 never had any problems.

Same here.

So, What's all this hype about HD mini DV tape.

According to members here, who I trust more then the marketing gurus, it sounds like it isn't necessary to run HD tapes.

Cheers,
D

My limited understanding is
 

that the biggest difference is in the manufacturing process. I've been under the impression that the higher quality, more expensive tapes are coated with their respective layer of magnetic coating applied through some vaporous-metal process. I believe that method somehow is supposed to provide more even distribution of the magnetic layer, which leads to claims of fewer dropouts, while the less expensive tapes use some other process (I think maybe a chemicial deposition process rather than some form of vaporized metal). I know that the deposition process (and maybe even the metal used) is one of the differences (other than the size) between Panasonic's mini-DV and full-size DV tapes.

Others here can probably give a much more detailed explanation.

Hi All,

maybe some of you can shed light on this: couldn't it be true that DV and HDV have the same vulnerability to dropouts because it is /the same amount of data/.

Both DV and HDV record at about 25Mbit/s, if I'm correct. So, any tape fault would affect the same amount of data in terms of bits-on-the-tape. Of course, HDV is MPEG2, so the question would be if MPEG2 is more easily affected by dropouts than the regular DV encoding. I could imagine this, because of the GOP structure.

Anyone who could take this from speculation to facts? Hope so..

Regards,
Pieter

If you have a dropout on a tape recording using MiniDV, then you may lose part of one frame, or possibly an entire frame. Both have happened to me.

If you have a dropout on a tape recording using HDV, you will probably lose 15 frames or about 1/2 second.

Correcting one frame in post is sometimes possible. Adjusting the audio is harder.

Correcting an HDV dropout that lasts 1/2 second is not feasible, in my opinion.

Drop out in HDV is more serious because of GOP, I would assume. In HDv Frames are interdependent on others, so dropout on one frame could effect many other frames....

Despite that, in a year with my FX1 I have not seen many drop outs. Obviously if you are shooting something very precious, take the greatest precaution, and include the HD premium tapes.

The differance is the amount of money you pay for them! Shot 5 tapes last night, and I doubt I'll have any drop-outs there either, as I have never had any with my Sony Premiums at about $3.00 each/50 at a time.

Mike

HDV recording on MiniDV tape
 

Hi

Í'm new to HDV recording and would need some advise. I have just purchased the XHA1 and was looking for the right MiniDV tapes for recording. The Video accessories shop mentioned to me that I should purchase the MiniDV tape that supports HDV which cost much more than a normal MiniDV tape.

However, curiously, when I insert a normal MiniDV tape into the camera and shoot in HDV, the tape seems to be able to record and output the footages rather well.

Could I ask if anyone could advise:
1) What is the different betwen MiniDV tape that is designed to support HDV recording and the normal MiniDV tape that has generally been used for SDV recording?

2) Is there resolution different the two which I couldn't tell? Do I need to invest in such costly tapes for all my HDV recording?

Thanks.

No difference between them. Using high grade tapes marked for DV will be fine for HDV.

DV and HDV have the same bit rate. As far as the tape is concerned, there's no difference.

Hi John

Thanks for the clarification. Seems that I can save up some cost to buy the standard MiniDV tape in bulk for my shooting instead of going for the individual HDV MiniDV tapes.

Regards

Vincent Ng

HDV tapes are generally higher quality, often coming from closer to the centre of the master spool - the stats say you're 90% less likely to experience drop out/distortion etc which are common with cheap MDV tapes.

I've shot more than 40 hours of video on my A1 with Sony's "premium" MiniDV tape (about $2.20 wholesale) and have yet to have a dropout event.

The problem with the "90% less likely to have drop out" claims is that I've yet to see any tape manufacturer say what the error rate on their basic tapes is so one can't know what comparison really means. 90% less likely compared to what exactly?

Between my SD and HDV work, I've shot hundreds of hours on the inexpensive Sony tape and think I've had one for two drop outs that I can remember. Maybe I'm just lucky.

How clean the camera's heads are and physical conditions like temp. and humidity etc. are more critical variables I'd think.

This was something I was definitely curious about too. Thanks for the clarification guys. :)

I've shot over 100 miniDV tapes between my two XHA1's some Sony some TDK both brands costing $2 a tape in HDV with no drop outs.

Excellent post.

Vincent, if you're still monitoring this thread, you can get slightly higher quality miniDV tapes like Panasonic PQ at Hai Chew in Sim Lim Tower. These are probably a better risk than buying very cheap tapes. The price is quite reasonable and I'm sure you will be able to bargain better than me. :)

Richard

Thank you
 

Hi Richard

Thanks for the info. Will check up the shop.

Thanks all for the sharings too.

Rgds

Vincent

DV tapes
 

This is the first time I have posted to this forum. I am upgrading to a Sony FX7 camera. What is the exact model of the Sony Premium tapes you are using? Is it the DVM60PRR tapes? I did not realize that this was such a big issue. A lot of great info. on this forum, I love it.

Thanks,

John

Panasonic is about the only company that I have seen publish any technical data about their tapes. The following specs are for their AMQ tapes.

Data Signal Output Level (21MHz): more than 0dB
Frequency Response (21/10.5MHz): within ±2dB
Overwrite (10.5/21MHz): less than 2dB
C/N (21MHz): more than -1dB
C/N (10.5MHz): more than -1dB Impulse Response (1/90Tb) within ±5 Recording Characteristics Optimum Recording Current: 0dB Tracking Signal Output Level (0.47MHz): 0dB
Overwrite (0.47/21MHz): less than -1dB
Magnetic Characteristics Coercivity: 120KA/M
Max. Residual Magnetic Flux Density: 500mT
Squareness: 0.8

I have no clue how these specs effect on what I see on screen. But I do know that there is a difference in the specs between their AMQ tapes and Panasonic's lesser grade tapes. Not a big difference, but a distinct difference. I think virtually every tape manufacturer claims that their expensive tapes have better color, better picture, fewer drop-outs, etc. I have no way to quantify any performance difference nor can I really see any difference. But who knows? It could be true.

Yes, Greg, it could............
 

It could also be possible a quarter of the Earths population is really Aliens in disguise and that you can, indeed, win the lottery without buying a ticket.

Then there's the telephonic "You and your familly have just been awarded a free holiday to [post name of exotic location here] by [name totally unheard of corporation here] for a week, just because you're you" phone call.

Digital is digital, if it can read it, it will always be the same, regardless if the coating was dried mud or bats blood and no matter what it's characterisics might be.

If your camera system is analogue, that's a different subject entirely, however, as this is "The Dvinfo", I think we'll stick to digital.

Build quality with tapes is about consistency and contaminents, get either of those wrong and you get dropouts.

Some are better than others with one or both.

Even the best will get bad batches.

The rest comes down to quality control.

Fail or don't care about the latter would appear to be where the wheat gets sorted from the chaff with tapes.

Even so, tape has been pushed to about it's absolute limit, and with the advent of Long GOP, the repercussions of even the slightest flaw has major implications, thus driving the move to solid state or other alternative storage methods.

Tape characteristics tell you a lot about a tape, and absolutely nothing.

CS

Dear Greg,

The claims that some manufacturers make about better color, etc., are completely groundless.

With digital, your camera sensor's image is converted to digital, then stored on the tape digitally, just ones and zeros. (Tape is always an analog medium, but the data stored is ones and zeros, nothing in between.)

The magic of digital is that the tape just has to record the ones and zeros, not subtle variations in a signal.

With analog, the signal gets recorded, and when the tape is read and processed, you get back the original signal plus some noise.

With digital, the signal gets recorded, and when the tape is read and processed, you get back the original signal without any added noise.

In other words, with digital you always get a perfect recording and playback (unless you have a tape dropout).

When the tape is read, the analog signal on the tape is read as ones and zeros. If it is close one, it becomes a one, if it is close to zero, it becomes a zero.

The important part is that when this works (and it almost always works), you get back the exact same image that you recorded. If the tape works at all, the image is exactly the same, regardless of the brand or quality of the tape.

"Better Color", is just marketing hype for MiniDV or HDV tapes.

The difference in tapes is consistency and low dropout rates.

I hope this helps

Dan & Greg...........
 

Dan,

Thanks for your erudite and logical explanation of the situation.

It seems I have a way to go with that approach - I'll work on it.

Well done and thank you.

CS

Dear Chris,

Thank you for the kind words.

We are in complete agreement - better color / better picture from a specific tape is just hype.

FWIW, it isn't as simple as a 1 is always a 1 and a 0 is always a 0.

The digital signal is inherently analog when recorded to tape. All digital communications are inherently analog at the most fundamental level. The key thing is whether the square wave analog signal is sufficiently unambiguous to ensure correct differentiation between 0 and 1. Dropouts, foreign matter and dirty heads add to the likelihood of the raw analog signal either being too close to call or just wrong.

The DV and HDV formats have a tremendous amount of error correction embedded into the signal that gets recorded. That information never makes it beyond the device on playback.

You can guarantee that a supposedly perfect dub from one camera/deck to another will not be perfect. The error correction within the device will have done its job admirably but where the errors are too great, the device will set various flags in the output stream to tell the decoder (e.g., on your PC) to mask appropriate parts of the video or the audio (which has the highest error correction on tape).

MiniDV vs HD miniDV Tape Mixing
 

I read on some other posts that you shouldn't mix brands of tapes in your camcorder, why exactly?

I just ordered a HV30 that will be here tomorrow (can't wait) with a 3 pack of Sony HD MiniDvs'. I also have some TDK and Maxell and Sony regular miniDVs. So if you shouldn't mix brands, what about mixing the HD and the regular ones? Obviously I wouldn't mix on the same shoot between HD and SD.

Also, if miniDVs are all 0's and 1's.....what does it matter to have HD tapes? Is it just that it holds more data like CD vs DVD?

Thanks.

In some cases if you switch brands you will get head clog. If you must change, use your head cleaning tape before you switch and then again after you switch back to your first brand. The only difference between HD and regular miniDV tape is quality. The more expensive tapes in theory don't have dropouts nearly as much. However, I know people shooting HDV with Sony's cheap Premium tapes with no trouble. You don't get any more data on them, except that the professional versions are 63 minutes instead of 60 to provide room for color bars and tone at the head and tail.

Is there really a difference in spec's..mini dv tape?
 

Hello All,

Currently I'm using Sony premium's for my XH A1. And I've yet to have a real problem with any of them even in HD.

I'm willing to spend more per tape if I could actually get a higher grade of tape to justify it.

Here's the deal.

When I look on-line for specifications on Sony tapes all I find are 'claims' that tapes are better with no specifications that would tell me why they are better by price.

Anybody know what specifications actually make a better tape? I mean for example: thickness, coating on the tape, better tape housing etc?

Thoughts?

Thanks again.

Rog Lee

As long as they're working for you with no dropouts, that's what counts.

Back in the old days when we used 2" and then 1" tape, there were two grades: mastering stock and pallet stock. Pallet stock, as the name implied, was delivered by big truck with a forklift to offload pallets. If you did a lot of dubs for TV stations, you'd need a pretty big area to store lots of pallets of tape. Mastering stock came in individual boxes because you didn't use so much of it. It was used for, as the name implies, mastering. The only difference, other than packaging, was the frequency of the manufacturer's dropout checking. Apparently they used some sort of automatic scanning devices that would inspect for dropouts, I'd guess microscopic anomalies in the magnetic coating. Pallet stock was checked at a rate of X times per running inch, while mastering stock would be checked at a much higher rate. So--same tape but you could be reasonably confident the good stuff would have far fewer dropout problems.

In more recent years, a tape supplier told me once that DVCAM stock was produced in big sheets, just like film, and slitters would cut it into the proper widths before it was wound onto cassettes. He said the good stuff came from the center of the sheet, while the cheaper tape came from closer to the edges where presumably it might be subject to more manufacturing stress and maybe the creation of dropouts. Who knows if that's legitimate or not. Sounds good.

I think it's a reasonable guess to say that the expensive stock might be subject to some tighter inspection criteria and that it's all probably from the same sheets running at high speeds across rollers. It could be that there is a lower rejection rate for cheap tape during some inspection process.

It would be nice if manufacturers today would say something concrete about all that instead of weaselwording claims that have little or no technical validation.

Sony has made claims on marketing posters that their higher quality mastering stocks in 6mm have higher gaussian magnetic strength (they retain the magnetic patterns laid down on the microscopic metal oxide "bits" better) than the run of the mill consumer quality. As well, Sony uses a different backing material in their higher quality HDV/DVCam/DV tapes containing more ceramic, again according to a poster I saw at a pro retailer in town.

Can I verify any of this? No.

Bill, I have been told the same thing about the center cut vs. edge cut tapes.

Many years ago I went to an Ampex Christmas party. I was seated next to the tape manager. The night wore on. Finally after a lot of small talk and many glasses of wine, I popped the question, "Is there any difference between your premium UMatics and the standard ones?" "Yes, the box is better." "And the tape?" "Exactly the same."

Today I buy from Costco at $2.20 a miniDV (Sony) - never had a drop out or any problem.

S
http://stefansargent.com

My own experience has been that standard MiniDV tapes give me dropouts on both my Z1 and A1. In 60 minutes I can pretty well count on one or two dropouts. Therefore, I use the two buck standard MiniDV tapes when dropouts don't matter. Where dropouts would create problems I use inexpensive HDV tape at about six bucks a pop. I have not had any dropouts using HDV tape.

I think it is safe to say that in a digital era of video capture, at any point in a tape either you have quality recording or you have unacceptable recording. There is no in-between. Therefore, as long as you are free of dropouts you cannot do any better. Use the cheap tape if it works.

The only exception might be for legacy issues. If you want to re-download a cheap quality tape five years from now it could have degraded causing massive problems.

Note carefully, however, that when I re-use a tape recording HDV, my dropout count increases radically.

I don't know in today's era if there really is a better mini-dv tape. Back in the days the best quality tapes were the Sony U-matic rainbow series, it was so good you can re-use it multiple times. Sony pulled the plug on the Rainbow series because of that (urban legend).

This is a very worrying statement Wesley, as every time you replay a tape you're 'reusing' it. The deck mechanism doesn't care a hoot if it's recording or replaying, both cause exactly the same stresses and strains. If I was meeting this radical increase you describe I wouldn't be able to sleep nights.

tom.

Tom, the way I understand it, there really is a physical difference between playing a tape and recording new video on a used tape. At least at a microscopic level. The information on tapes is recorded into these tiny pieces of metal that are glued to the tape. When you record to tape they magnetize the little metal bits and arrange them so that they become organized information. When you play them, nothing has to be moved or changed. When you re-record a tape, the tape is demagnetized (erased) right before it goes to the record heads on the drum. So these microscopic metal bits do get rearranged twice and theoretically they might come loose. At least that is the way it was explained to me.

What was explained to you was analogue recording Greg. Digital recording is tough, has error correction and only ones or zeros are laid onto tape. There's no erase head. There's no colours recorded, no audio, no sharpness, nothing but ones and zeros.

If a one is recorded badly as 0.72 (say) it's still read as one. If a zero is recorded as 0.3, it still seen as a perfect zero.