The "Use One Brand!" Controversy
 

One of the tell-tales of an unsubstantiated claim is the emphasis with which it is stated when it is passed on. I find the "stick with one brand" of miniDV tape advice to be of this type. Am I sure there is no truth in it? No. I am also not sure that holding my cams upside down would not extend their lives. But until there is evidence that this is true, I'll continue to use them upright.

I don't want to be argumentative, but I think It's a disservice to this community or any community to stand by and let urban legend or folk wisdom be granted the same status as real information.

So, believers, I ask you to produce some evidence.

• BEST--An experiment or published report of an experiment that responsibly tests a clearly stated hypothesis regarding the use of more than one brand as opposed to the use of a single brand.
• NEXT BEST--A peer reviewed expert article explaining the technical reasons for the caution.
• IF ALL ELSE FAILS, even a manufacturer's recommendation not to mix use of their product with anyone else's would be better than nothing.

I'll reply in advance to several types of posts that would move the discussion backwards rather than forward. They would just be further examples of the kind of "knowledge" that gave rise to this legend:

• ERROR 1: Anecdotal experiences. These don't count. If they did, here's mine. I've mixed five brands in my Canon, Sony and Panasonic camcorders for many hours without problems. I've used a head cleaner ONCE in one of the cams.
• ERROR 2: "A lot of people say so," or "A lot of knowledgeable, respected people say so." Lame. Do I have to list some infamous examples of this kind of folly?
• ERROR 3: "I've heard that the explanation is...." Please place such litter in the proper receptacle and give us your source.
• ERROR 4: "It's better to be safe than sorry." We could say that about staying in bed rather than going out and living. Actually, isn't it better to be free of irrational fears?

Fred, it used to be that Sony and Panasonic (and probably other brands) tapes didn't mix well. The lubricants would interact with each other and cause dropouts. But that was then. I believe Sony and Maxell reformulated their tapes in 1997.

I more or less agree with you that there's lots of FUD (fear, uncertainty, doubt) over tapes. Which is why there's an entire forum for this, where people rehash the same things over and over and over again.

Fred,

To me, this is the worst evidence. When CD-R's were becoming popular, label manufacturers helped spread the rumor that sharpie makers had chemicals that disolved the disc and lowered disc life. It was completely wrong, but it helped them so they said it.

Of course a tape manufacturer, once you have their brand in their hand, would love to assert that you will hurt your camera if you switch brands.

Glenn, if this issue were only rehashed here, it wouldn't bother me so much. It seems I see this "wisdom" proclaimed about every day in other forums, even when it's almost off topic.

Barry,
Then why are they all not saying it? I think the answer is that it would be a double edged sword, just like a statement that you should not reuse tapes, which would also seem to serve their interests. Trouble is, either of these statements could imply negative things about their products.

So if one were bold enough to say that you shouldn't mix his with others he'd have to give a pretty convincing and in depth explanation as to why, and this is why I might give it some credibility.

Fred, since you're the non-believer here, why don't you prove the rest of us wrong by mixing brands in your camera (more than you have--keep going)? After all, it was your idea. If anyone's heads should (might) get screwed up, why not yours?

Keep in mind, it may take many more tapes and many more hours of recording. But do let us know what you find.

In the mean time, I'll stick to one brand, thank you. I'd rather err on the side of safety and prudence.

Jay

agree with Jay

the problem is that while most brands probably mix just fine there certainly was a known issue between certain brands of tapes where the lubricants did not like each other.

Now for me i rather simply stick to one tape that i know to work well in my camera then to start buying all kinds of different tapes and having two possible problems one being that their might be an issue with mixing and the other an unknown tape that i have not used before.

There is nothing i would gain from buying different tapes so why should i ?

Fred ,I agree that "wives tales " are a diservice to fellow videographers.How ever many things are discovered outside of big budget and/or corparate involvments.An example is specific "bugs" with software,or equipment defects that the manufacture may not admit to.If you need examples I can supply them.
I believe the diservice is a result non responsible reporting such as per your error 2 & 3.We all have people that we trust that the info they give us is true and people we don't.It is up to the individual to decide whom is whom.
Some people in their zeal to help others make comments that they are not qualified to make but they wish to help and will use info suppied by others whom they may not have put in the right category( trust / dont trust).So the intent of some may be good.I try not to get upset by them.Just put them in MY right category.
As for your BEST--Who would benifit from an expensive experiment other than users?NEXT BEST-- An article is just a story which may or not have any merit and again reviewed by whom?Who can you trust?A search will show many complaints of errors in articles.
IF ALL ELSE FAILS-- Most manufacturers suggest their own brand and to be able to make a definitive statement about tape they would have to engage in a large experiment(costly) and still could find themselves in court.What would they gain from such an undertaking?
But anecdotal experiences I will consider if properly presented.
They may not be correct but if I think they are I go with them.Scientists have flip flopped on number of issues and I thought they had FACTS.
My experience is that I bought a new XL1S and ran about 10 new Maxell tapes in it with no problem.I bought 2 Sony tapes when because I was low.After I put the Sony tape in the machine it recorded for sometime (about 15 min)at which point I stopped the tape.When I restarted I got a clean head warning.I changed the tape to the other Sony and got the warning again (a number of times).I sent the camera in and they replaced the record assembly.Off the record(not on the invoice ) they suggested staying with 1 brand of tape.I switched to Panasonic ,order by the case and have not had a problem in 2 years.The camera was not exposed to extreme enviroment
I dunno if it was the tape brand switch or not.But I'm sticking with Panasonic until something changes my mind.I offer that info to help others in a case where no definitve info is available as far as I know.They can decide.
I accept others anecdotal experiences in case I might change my mind.That's our right.All of ours.
Now I appreciate your anecdotal experiences because I tend to put you in MY trust category( but the jury is still out)HA HA.Let's keep the info flowing ,but I agree lets try to supply trustworthy info.

I consider Adam Wilt to be one of the most straight shooting DV "gurus" around. Here are his remarks regarding this issues, lifted from his DV advice page ______________

Mixing different brands of tape: In DV's early days, Sony and Panasonic tapes used different lubricants, and if you used one brand a lot and then switched to the other, incompatibilities between the lubricants (which get deposited on heads and tape guides) could cause VTRs to jam up or the heads to clog, sometimes permanently. Supposedly the lubricants were made compatible starting in 1997, but I'm still hearing horror stories about these problems in the summer of 2002.
This is not a DV/DVCAM vs. DVCPRO problem; while many of the people reporting the jams are inserting the occasional DV tape into a DVCPRO transport, many others are seeing the problem in DV and DVCAM equipment, which (high-end DVCAM gear aside) can't play back DVCPRO to begin with. It also happens when other brands of tape are intermingled, not just Sony and Panasonic.
Anecdotal evidence would seem to indicate that the biggest problems occur when one brand of tape is used exclusively for a long time, and then the other brand's tape is used: instant mess! If one switches back and forth between the different tape brands frequently, say, switching between Sony and Panasonic every three or four tapes, the problems don't seem to appear.
Frequent switching apparently prevents a critical mass of one lubricant building up in the transport; switching tapes may clean off accumulations of gunk before they get heavy enough to cause problems. Whether this is really a solution, or if frequent switching only leads to a longer-term buildup of cross-contamination pollution on the tapes themselves, is unknown.
I run about 50% Panasonic DV tapes in my gear, with the remainder being a mix of Sony DV or DVCAM, JVC, and the occasional Fuji. I've never had a problem. It's rare that I run more than four hours on one brand before using the other brand of tape, so that may be a good starting place as to what a safe interchange frequency may be.
Thus there appear to be two general approaches to this problem:
Pick one brand of tape, and “stick” with it (sorry about the pun!). You simply won't see the problem. If any foreign brand of tape comes into your facility, do not put it into your VTR; make a FireWire dub of it onto your chosen tape brand on your machine, using the client's camcorder or VTR as the source deck.
Interchange tape brands frequently, so the gunk from one never builds up a critical mass inside the transport to jam up the other tape when it's inserted. Always clean the heads when changing brands, too.
Problems with tape interchange of this sort seem to be reduced by using a tape cleaner in between the different tapes. Especially in this instance, do not rewind and reuse the cleaning tapes; you'll just be mixing old gunk with new if you do so. Also, do not wait until you've run one pass on the new brand tape and seen blockies or dropouts: using the cleaning tape at this point may only polish the gunks firmly into the heads. Clean the heads before inserting the new tape.
Your results may vary: and if you've had any positive or negative experiences of this sort, I'd like to hear your story...
_____________________________________________

I think Mr. Wilts take is fairly responsible. As for first hand experience, after sending in a Canon Xl1 with head problems ... Canon repair specifically said TO ME "You're not using Sony tapes are you? Cause there's an issue with them, we don't recomend them." We weren't we were using Fuji as it happens. That's first hand from Canon to me to you.

Fred,

Anecdotal evidence is sometimes all we have. I have sucessfully mixed TDK and Maxell in my Canon XL-1, and now both XL-2 cameras. Have not had a problem.

You should realize that anything you read on these forums in the way of advice is subject to being inaccurate although well intentioned. That's the nature of these forums. We all offer our own experiences and you the reader, have to decide whether the information is something you should or should not heed, act upon, believe, etc. Remember, it's free advice we are all giving in an attempt to help our peers. In that regard, it is not a disservice at all.

=gb=

I have shot DV since day 1, I was given a VX-1000 the day they were released in the US in 1996. I have since shot with every 3CCD DV camera ever released in the US and shot THOUSANDS AND THOUSANDS of hours of DV. I can tell you that in general, tape problems are rare but switching brands makes them worse and more prevalent. Do I have data? No...just a decade of experience, sorry if that is not enough for you.

I generally clean the heads when changing tape brands and have not had a problem in many years but before then I mainly used Sony but noticed more dropouts and bad tapes when I used other brands. I first thought the problem was inferior other brands but when myself and others who had the reverse experience got together on sites like this and talked, we deduced that the problems arose when we used tapes other than our standard tapes.

Will changing tape brands make your camera break? Probably not, but it WILL cause there to be more aberrations than if you stick to the same brand.




ash =o)

Look at it from strictly the physical point of view.

Tape heads are designed to read the data off the tape, therefore the mechanisms inside must come into contact with that tape.

The only phyiscal damage that can occur here is through abrasion and lubrication of the head through the dry/wet fluid on the tape itself.

Sony's Master tapes use a wetter-type lubrication on their tape, and therefore transferring from these tapes to a drier TDK tape for example would transfer the lubrication on that tape and cause reading problems for the head as well as physical damage to the TDK cassette.

Consider what's actually different about the tapes, which isn't much, and then consider what matters to the camera, which will read magnetic data regardless of what it's on. If there's uncompressed DV footage on a tape, it will read it, and the only thing that could possibly inhibit that is physical issues with the tape itself, and the only one that I have ever found is the issue of lubrication.

You could possibly consider the mechanics of the rotating mechanism, but if they turn, they turn, and switching from tape brand to tape brand isn't going to change that.

Bottom line: If different companies use different types of lubrication on their tapes, than it is 100% possible that switching tapes without properly cleaning the heads will cause this lubrication to accumulate and mix together, producing undesired results.

That said, I can say I've used an extensive amount of DV tapes of differing brands over two camcorder lifespans and never even encountered a dropped frame. Although with my new GL2, I'm not willing to take the chance, so my Head Cleaner cassette is my best friend at this point.

<< So, believers, I ask you to produce some evidence. >>

Sorry. It's up to *you* to produce some evidence. You do the tests.

Until somebody can prove to me conclusively that tape brand switching is *not* an issue, I'll continue to recommend against it.

Anecdotal evidence is all we have to work with, and there is plenty of it here. Yes, anecdotal evidence certainly *does* count. I just don't buy the argument that "since it hasn't happened to me, that means it's not true." As the owner of this board, I have to look at it from a liability standpoint. I have to look at it as "what is the safe thing to recommend." And clearly the safe thing is to recommend *against* changing tape brands.

Show me the problems caused by *not* switching brands. Show me the reason why anybody *should* switch brands. I can think of no issues or problems caused by *not* switching brands. If somebody wants to argue against that, then the burden of proof falls on their shoulders, not mine.

If you say that tape brand switching does not cause issues, then *you* do the tests and you prove it. Until that happens, the official DV Info Net stance is to recommend against it. There is no FUD involved here. I'm just waiting for somebody to prove to me conclusively that brand switching is not a problem. More importantly, prove to me why it would *not* be a good practice to stick with one brand. If you can't show me why it's wrong not to switch brands, if you can't demonstrate the harm it causes, then I don't think you have a valid argument against that practice.

Chris, logically that's a fallacy.

You're right when you say that anecdotal evidence is all we have to work with, and anecdotal evidence is by definition inconclusive. Therefore it's impossible to conclusively say either way.

Anecdotally, I've used Panasonic, Sony and JVC tapes in the same camera (DVX-100) as long as I've owned it, since it was first released. The heads appear to be in excellent condition and I've experienced no dropouts or image quality issues.

So what makes my anecdotal evidence more or less conclusive than that of someone who says "Don't mix tapes, lest your camera enter into congress with the Beast"?

Granted, there is no scientific proof either way. But I think Chris stated his case very well. Look at it from a risk/reward point of view. We don't know for sure, but there might be a risk involved with mixing brands. OTOH, I fail to see any reward whatsoever associated with mixing brands.

So why would you want to take a chance when there's essentially nothing to gain by mixing tape brands? But of course it's your camera, so you have to make your own choices.

Personally I only use Sony premium tapes in my Sony cameras. I haven't had any problems with dropouts, so why would I want to start mixing brands? To save a few pennies when something is on sale??? The Sony tapes are available just about everywhere (WalMart, Target, CompUSA, Circuit City, etc) and I suspect the same is true for the other major tape brands as well.

Who the heck cares if there have been tests? Do whatever you want. The experienced people here and in other forums will tell you that it is best to stick to one brand. As noted above most the issues arrive when you use a certain brand almost exclusively and then shoot a tape with another brand. Nobody is saying there is a high failure rate or that your camera will be ruined. In the collective experience of those who have shot thousands of hours of DV we have found that dropouts and tape problems WHILE STILL RARE, seem to increase when you switch tape brands. The drop out rate may go from 1 every 100 tapes to 1 every 50 tapes.

I can tell you without question or doubt that if you shoot 100 Sony tapes, then plop in a TDK tape that there is a higher likelihood of issues that if someone put that same tape in a camera that shot 100 hous with TDK tapes. HIGHER LIKELIHOOD, not 100% certainty. As recent as last February I was on a behind the scenes shoot for VH1 "All Access" and I was shooting with an XL2 and another guy was shooting with a DVX-100a. He ran out of Panny tapes and borrowed some of my Sony tapes. Of the 10 tapes he shot, 3 were full of errors. He then proceeded to tell me what junk Sony tapes are and that he had only used Panny tapes in the past. From the same batch of 100 tapes I had zero issues.

Sorry that I have not spent hours documenting a scientific study to make you feel better about it but most every pro who has shot DV for a long period of time will tell you the same thing. Do whatever you want to do but dont challenge the experience of seasoned professionals. Nobody is saying you need to use expensive tapes or a certain brand, just to stick with WHATEVER you want. The only motivation is to share our experience with others.



ash =o)

Nice discussion everyone, thanks. A lot of people jumped headlong into one or more of the error modes I mentioned; some apologizing for it and some not even seeming to realize it.

Anyway, a couple points if I may:

1. I didn't say or mean to imply that people who advise against mixing brands do a disservice to anyone. No way. It's earnest advice, meant to help. This is a great community, as I've said many times. What I said was that I felt that I would do a disservice by not injecting a reminder into the nearly unanimous chorus that science has not spoken on this issue. I am being earnest too.

2. To the pros who have shot thousands of hours of tape and are convinced that their informal observations confirm the gunk theory, I submit that it is well known that the human brain will perceive things in such a way as to confirm its belief. It will bend time to force correlation of events in memory, it will equate correlation to causation, and it will reject conflicting evidence. This fact about human nature is very successfully expoited by professional psychics is it not? Well, we also do it to ourselves. For years I thought that the doppler effect depends only on the relative motion between sound source and listener, that it didn't matter which one was moving. My ears confirmed it over and over. But it ain't so. The amount of frequency shift does depend on which one is moving. Now that I know it, I can hear it.

Aristotle thought that it was obvious that heavy objects fall faster than light objects. No experiments necessary. Hey, he probably even saw an olive fall faster than a leaf, more than once. Confirmed. Because he was so esteemed by others, this blatant fallacy was accepted as fact for 2000 years. 2000 years!!

3. No, I don't have to prove that alternating brands is okay, and people who disagree don't have to prove their point either, unless one of us actually wants to convince the other. That's not my aim. My mildly provocative call was to try to flush out any real science pertaining to this matter that I didn't know about, and to let people who prefer the freedom to buy whatever is convenient put the advice against doing so in context. I also wanted to let them know that some people's extensive experience indicates that it's okay to do so.

4. I've seen lots of GL2 owners say "I've used only one brand of tape and I'm getting the 'Remove Cassette' message." I don't think I've seen anyone say "I've been using a lot of different brands of tape and now I'm getting the 'Remove Cassette' message." Now, that probably doesn't make anyone reading this post believe that using one brand causes the message.

But suppose for a moment that someone had that notion, dreamed up a plausible theory and posted his experience. Then the others I mentioned above chimed in one by one, saying "me too, but a different brand," and "me too, but a third brand," etc. Then you could very well have earnest warnings in the GL2 forum not to stick with one brand.

And what if the brand you choose to stick with turns out to be the most abrasive one, causing head wearout faster than others? Then you would have been better off alternating brands.

And finally, the anecdotes about a suddenly broken long string of single brand usage correlating wth increased dropouts may indicate the need to change brands frequently if you want to maintain the freedom to change brands. I don't know. Who does?

I can sum up my opinion with a little anecdote I heard long ago.

There are two types of people. If you say "be careful of that stove - it's hot" then the first type will say "thanks for the warning!" The second type needs to smell burning flesh.

The advice that's been given may not be scientific, but is a sincere warning from many experienced people. You can decide whether you're type 1 or type 2...

And I can sum up my opinion with a little anecdote I heard a long time ago.

There are two types of people. If you say, "Don't do that or you'll go blind," then the first type will say, "Thanks for the warning!" The second type will will figure he can do it until he needs glasses. :>)

I've had an XL1 for a little over 4 years now and have probably run every brand of tape through it. I have never given a thought to keeping the same brand of tape in stock. Never had a problem, not even a "dirty head" message. Never needed to clean the heads.

Prior to that I shot with Beta, 3/4", SVHS, etc. only had problems with the really cheap brands. And that I brought on by being cheap.

When I was in video sales, of course I recommended you find a brand and stick with it. The brand I sold was the one I wanted you to use.

There are so many variables in what we do that I think a lot of us try to eliminate one of those variables in sticking to a single type of tape. That's fine, we all do what works best for us and gives us the most peace of mind.

Based on similar discussions in different areas, I suspect this all came about to warn of bad quality tapes.
A cheap, poor quality tape will do far more damage than a top quality 'different brand' tape.

It's my observation that a small number of isolated cases can cause these things to become far bigger than intended, or needed.

Sorry to dissagree Fred but I bought an XM2 (GL2) 2 years ago and used mainly 3 types of tape, Fuji, Sony and Panasonic just as I had done with all my previous camcorders of different brands. Before buying the Canon I had been using a Panasonic Camcorder as my main unit and a Sony as a back-up. I never had any problems switching brands or re-using tapes. I bought the Canon, It worked flawlessly for 1 year, I even recommened the XM2 to a friend who also bought one. Then suddenly I got the "eject tape" message, I cleaned the heads and it worked for a short while but eventually the problem arose again, it got so bad that it occured 5 times during the recording a rugby final. I read about the problems of switching brands in this forum, especially wet/dry tapes, so I decided to stick to Panasonic branded tapes ( dry ) I purchased a Canon Xl1s as a main Camcorder and used the XM2 as a back-up, everything was going fine.
My friend then got the same " Eject tape" problem on his XM2 but was able to get his repaired under warranty.
We both stick to the one brand of tape now without a problem.
I have now purchased 2 brand new Canon XL2's and I will continue to stick to the one brand, I am not taking any chances.
My XM2 has gone back for repair at an estimated cost of £350, my friends XM2 is still working perfectly for about 12 Months now.

David

I had an uncle who used nothing but SONY tapes in his DV camera and then he switched to another brand.

That's when the trouble started. It was little things at first. He lost his car keys. The glass in the photo of his grandmother cracked. He dropped his favourite beer stein, the one his dad brought home from the war.

Then he began to hear voices and see shapes in dark corners where there were no shapes to be seen. One morning he said he saw a perfect likeness of Akio Morita in his pancake syrup. He began to complain that his editing room was full of a "cold, forbidding presence." He began to lose sleep. Strange hard drive-like sounds kept him awake. He said he heard them outside in the wind. He took to wondering the neighborhood and on nights with a full moon he wake us up screaming "The dropouts! Oh dear God, the dropouts!".

And then he faded to black.

There's your proof. Heed my tale or not, as you wish.

It's impossible to conclusively say either way, and most likely neither "side" of this issue will ever take on the burden of proof in order to make a scientific conclusion. But as for myself, speaking as the owner of this board, I have to look at this from a liability standpoint and not a scientific one (and the two are very often completely different points of view).

The reason why DV Info Net sides with the unscientific, illogical and inconclusive viewpoint that mixing tapes is harmful, is strictly a consideration of liability above and beyond anything else, including anecdotal evidence for or against. Somebody reads on this board that we encourage tape brand mixing, or even if we're just saying it won't cause problems, and then that reader does mix tape brands, gums up the heads of the camcorder, incurs a $250 repair bill, gets an idea and then wants to come after me, expecting whatever monetary compensation because this message board "officially" said it was okay to mix brands. Can you see what I'm getting at here. And I'm not concerned with whether or not I would be ruled against in a case like that, or if that case would be thrown out... I don't want to find out. I don't want to be involved to the extent where I have to find out.

From a standpoint of liability, keyword: liability, it is safer to say that DV Info Net firmly recommends *against* the practice of mixing tape brands. No that is not logical, nor scientific nor conclusive, and I make no pretense about that whatsoever. But it most definitely is safer from a legal point of view, and in the real world that must be my primary consideration.

Sticky situation
 

Peter:

You may have thought you were being funny, but I can tell you seeing images of Akio Morita in pancake syrup is no laughing matter. This, my well-intended colleague, is a very serious problem that is now being studied by a United Nations panel of experts. One the experts, who asked that he not be named, says there have actually been sightings of Akio Morita in napalm spills... but most of these happened after the witness/victim switched to Sony tapes purchased at Wal-Mart, not B&H.

Yes, tapes purchased at different retailers CAN clog your head... I mean, heads.

By the way: I ONLY use Sony tapes in my XL-1s. One of these posts scared the hell out of me back when I first got it, so I haven't taken any chances. However, every once in awhile I still get a message in the EVF: "YOU MORON, THE TAPE IS IS BACKWARDS." Other than that, no worries, mate.

The Pros only uses Sony tapes and will not accept any other brands when sending the tapes to the editors because switching tapes in the past has gunked up their player heads.

This leaves me to believe it must be true if an editing house has experienced and modified their workflow so as to have less gunk heads.

I can only convince myself, and share with others. Over the last four years I've used fuji tapes in my XL1's. Then about a month ago, when I was in a rush and need a tape for a last minute shoot, my only local source was out of the fuji's and I resorted to a Sony brand.

Fifteen-minutes into the shoot, the tape jammed! I remember pulling the tape out, the film unraveling from the heads -causing the presenter to give pause. I excused myself, unwrapped a fresh Sony tape. Ran a cleaning tape for 10secs. Then loaded the fresh Sony tape, and resumed recording. Ten minutes later, BAM! This time, there was no easy recovery, the tape was in there gummy and tight. Fortunately I was also capturing to disk so the shoot was'nt a complete failure... I did have to edit the parts where the speaker and audience were amused by my show of "Professionalism" in using choice words on that second tape (-Ah well, 10 years after being in the Navy and I still can't keep my mouth shut).

I sent my camera to Canon for repair. They had to replace several small parts -fortunately it was under warranty. That was about a dozen shoots ago, and I've since used the same old Fuji, with not a single re-occurence.

Pete

There's the proof. Mixing two brands is a problem. But because you mixed more than two brands it's OK.

Logical, huh? :-)

Just for an analogy... I have a friend who asked why I changed my oil so often (every 3k to 5k miles). He said he NEVER has changed the oil in his car that has 77,000 miles on it!!! So sure, mixing tape brands may not cause problems but the more experience you have, the more you realize it COULD... note that COULD does not mean WILL...



ash =o)

Anecdotal evidence is just statistics...except you know the people involved.

What a lame first post.

Hi.

Dan

A simple message
 

Stick With One Brand Of Tape, and you will have a lot less to worry about.

I don't mean to be argumentative, and I fully appreciate that you explain in a later post that you're not looking at this from a scientific standpoint, but I still must make a friendly correction.

It is always up to the *claimant* to prove something is true, not to the skeptic to prove it's *not* true. If I say "Don't go in the woods, Bigfoot lives in the woods," it's up to me to prove it, not you to disprove it. *I* need to provide compelling evidence. It would be utterly unscientific for me to say to you: "Fine, you're not convinced Bigfoot exists? Then it's up to *you* to produce some evidence that he doesn't exist." That is quite illogical. The positive claim must be proven. The unconvinced listener does not have to do anything.

This is one of the ways we discern what is true and what is not true.

You can't often prove a negative. For example, you can't really *prove* there's no such thing as Bigfoot (or unicorns, or invisible undetectable dragons, etc.). But if you want to be taken as a speaker of truth, you better be able to prove there *is* a Bigfoot if you claim there's one.

Maybe switching tapes can cause problems. Maybe it can't. It really doesn't matter how many people *believe* switching tapes has some effect. Until a scientific study is conducted, there is no way to isolate cause and effect and discern if what people believe is true. Any number of factors could be involved. Superstitious people become convinced that crossing the paths of black cats can cause bad luck and that holding a rabbit's foot enhances good luck at the slot machine. This is because they notice the proximity in time between bad events and black cats, or good events and their luck charms, etc., and ignore all the other times such things do not happen in proximity. They have endless anecdotes of how these things absolutely connect. But one of the golden rules in testing claims is: correlation does not prove causation. We are pattern-seeking beings, and we often notice the "hits" and ignore the "misses."

None of this is to say that switching tapes is *not* a problem. I have absolutely no idea. But I take Fred's excellent point as he intended it: why believe something without compelling evidence? No amount of anecdotal stories is compelling evidence, for the reasons outlined above. Many doctors -- even brilliant ones -- believe all sorts of things which are scientifically baseless, and which fail when scientifically tested. Why? Human nature. We're not often good at discerning what's a pattern and what's random. That's why science developed. That's how we correct for our deficiency. We all have it, none of us is a perfect observer without science.

I don't understand your claim that it's impossible to test. A scientific study could easily be conducted by any consumer group that conducts such studies. These sorts of studies are done all the time, it's really a quite simple protocol.

That's of course your right, and I hope it is always with the honesty and thorough explanation that you offer here.

1. Often enough, many of us find ourselves in the situation wherein we cannot get a hold of any tapes of the brand we usually use. Usually this is in an emergency situation, and we must choose to A) use a different brand, or B) skip the shoot. Which is safer? What's the evidence? If I had a concrete scientific study that has withstood peer review, I would be able to weigh this far more accurately. If I knew that nobody had a shred of compelling evidence, I would also be able to weigh this far more accurately.

2. Apart from being a necessity at times, switching brands could be very useful -- maybe you'll discover a brand that you prefer, for whatever reason. Maybe it's an easier brand to find where you are now. Maybe it's cheaper and works just as well. Maybe it does a better job in some way. Maybe a new grade of tape comes out by a manufacturer, and you want to try it. These are all the reasons people try new brands of *anything*. I liked Hershey's chocolate for years, then moved up to Ghirardelli for years, then the apex: Valrhona. Last week I tried Hershey's again and ya know what? I realize I really love it too, sometimes.

Strangely enough, now my XL1S is suddenly jamming some tapes. Hmmmmmm.

If every tape were absolutely identical, then I could see your point that there's no reason to ever switch brands. But then if they were all absolutely identical, the belief that switching brands can cause problems would be undeniably untenable.

I believe you're incorrect about the legal safety. Check with good lawyers. You are not in any more danger of being sued (much less being ruled against) if you stated: "While there is no scientific evidence to support this claim, many professionals have become convinced that tape switching can cause problems with cameras. I feel it is my duty to report this because it is a common claim which may be true. It is also my duty to be as honest and accurate as possible to the best of my knowledge, and to that aim I must acknowledge that I am not personally aware of any scientific studies which have looked into this claim, and thus cannot judge it with anything but a gut feeling. You must do your own research and draw your own conclusions. If you learn of any compelling scientific study, please alert me and I will post it immediately. Thank you."

Recall that situation I noted above, wherein I can't find any tapes of the brand I usually use but I'm in the midst of a shoot: my only options might be A) use a different brand, or B) skip the shoot. And because you have personally claimed that tape-switching is a real danger, and because you have put the official weight of your *wonderful* world-class board behind that claim, I could just as conceivably come after you with a lawsuit for causing me to miss a vital shoot because of your dubious warning, which I believed.

I don't see how you're any safer by not being plainly scientific about it. You're always safer with truth, accuracy and science -- which includes reporting that the jury's simply out on something. Unless there is compelling evidence (which there may well be, even though nobody's produced any in this thread yet), I still don't understand why "DV Info Net firmly recommends *against* the practice of mixing tape brands." At least not without the caveats you provide here. The honest caveats you provide here seem sufficient.

I don't think that's a relevant example. You would believe a stove is hot not just because someone told you. You would be weighing lots of other evidence too, the most important being: you know that stoves *do* get hot. In most situations wherein someone would give you this warning, there is probably no compelling reason to doubt the claim. It is quite basic.

So a relevant example along those lines might be something like this: If someone tells you, "If you cook with copper pots on that stove, you won't be able to later cook with aluminum pots," there are two types of people: those who will say "Thanks for the warning!" and those who will say "Wow, that's interesting, is that really true? How do you know that? What sort of evidence is there for it? Anyone know why that happens?"

Type 1 isn't very terribly concerned with accuracy, while type 2 is. Of course, type 1 may get by just fine in life, and indeed may be right to believe this claim -- maybe it's true. But maybe it's not. How do we confirm anything? Scientific testing. Period.


Until then, is it better to heed the tape-switching warning or not to? That is the central question that has arisen here, since so far nobody has been able to answer Fred's original question.

I see no problem with each individual making his or her own decision. (As Fred said, too.) Maybe this whole claim is true, maybe it's doesn't hold an ounce of water. Since there are times when one may want -- or need -- to use a different brand of tape, a decision *must* be made.

Personally, from all I've read and heard so far, my provisional conclusion is that it sounds like it's a tossup and I'll give it the appropriate weight whenever the decision comes up.

Unfortunately that's *correlation* but not necessarily *causation*. Did Canon happen to say it was probably the use of a new type of tape that caused your problem? If so, did they explain this? If so, could you please report that, it would be really useful information and would suggest Canon may have done some good research.

Otherwise, all we've got here is correlation. Seems compelling. But it is not. (Either way.) Could have been any number of other factors. I don't think we have any idea. Unless, as I said, Canon said something to this effect...?

That's cute.

But in case some readers aren't clear on how science works, that's of course not what the phrase "anecdotal evidence" means. Anecdotal evidence is evidence that was not gathered under proper scientific conditions and/or was reported as hearsay without proper documentation ("my uncle said...," etc.). As for "proper scientific conditions," that can be a number of things, but most often means double-blind testing, controlled for other possible variables, that's repeatable and peer reviewed.

It's all about *how* the evidence was gathered, not *who* gathered it. ...At least that's what I heard from my cousin's girlfriend.

My first DV camera: a Sony TRV-20 is going strong after five or six years of using whatever DV tape is the cheapest. I expect that it will retire from being out of date long before the constant changing of tape types does any damage.

Anecdotal evidence, and EXPERIENCE is what this board is all about.

"Anybody have any experience with XZX camera/NLE/Lights?" is the most often asked question on this board.

Even the original poster to this thread, has posted questions asking for other people's experience using particular equipment with particular conditions. The only possible answer he could get would be anecdotal. He must place SOME value on 'annecdotal evidence' or he wouldn't be asking for it.

I'm not saying that a double blind controlled study isn't MORE valuable than a collective POLLING of annecdotal evidence... I'm just saying that most of the people on this board are asking for personal experience reccomendations.

In terms of my OWN personal experience. Yes, I've had an Xl1 clog up when a different tape was loaded. Yes CANON service told me specifically that there were "Issues" with SONY tapes in their camera, causing clogging. That's something I know from a personal conversation with a Canon rep. No, I didn't ask them for a white paper on their comment, I was pretty busy trying to get the camera back in time for a shoot.

So, point taken, there is NO PUBLISHED, CONTROLLED STUDY of the tape switching issue. There is a whole heap of annecdotal experience on this board. IF you are so inclined, do a search, or run a thread to COLLATE those who have had problems with a switch, those who have switched and not had problems, and those who have Never switched and had problems and those who've never switched and never had problems.

I suspect that those who WANT such a detailed study, will be happy to do it.

Hmmm,

It appears to me, that some members of this thread, go yonder into the video wilderness, as bare foot pilgrims.

I have just shot a freeby, for my little town, and, noticed that I was short of my normal 10 Sony (name your own brand) tapes.

That was rectified today, with an order for 20 tapes.

My point: If you are not prepared to enter the professional arena, with the knowledge of the foibles of your equipment, don't leave your crib.

Decrying the malfunctions of this/that/, or the next thing, is a failure to prepare for the shoot.

I know of NO one in this "guild of not so great genius mentalities", who has not had some sort of cam problem.

I choose not to berate the equipment. I look to my self to correct the problem via my past experience; and, newly aquired problems.

Just a thought.

Quite right about sharing experience, and learning from others, etc. That's largely what makes this such a terrific forum (that and all the great wit, from Chris Hurd and others).

For what it's worth, my only reason for pointing out the lack of compelling evidence -- as far as I know, at this point -- is that I have heard so many conflicting reports here and elsewhere, just as you point out, that I have no idea what to think. Really. All I know is that usually, but not always, when things like this come up (conflicting reports, too many variables, no hard data, etc.) it turns out to be untrue or only partly true. I stumbled on this thread because I've only ever used Sony Excellence and suddenly am having constant rewind and forced eject problems. I spoke to a Canon tech rep today and after we talked about that problem, I asked him about this. He said he's heard about the whole switching tapes theory but said he has no idea if it's true. What he *did* know was far more important: that my XL1S is going to be away from its Daddy for at least 10 days. Ouch! Guess I'll get a lot of other things done next week.

Anyway, my own experience has no real bearing on the question; i.e., it doesn't in any way dispute the tape switching theory. It's just one more experience. Who knows?

It would make more sense for tape switching to cause problems than not, since different brands (if not different types within brands) use different lubricants and there could be a bad reaction. Why chance it?

But rather than debate the yeanayness of it, time might be spent compiling a list of "compatible" tapes, ones that use the same type of lube (if there be such beasts).

I do know this: if Brand A uses Bailey's Irish Cream as a lube, and Brand B uses Peach Schnapps, you REALLY don't want the two mixing inside your cam.

I do, but this is different.