Money is no object editing PC
 

I know these exist all over the place but I cannot find one that seems to align to what I'm looking for.

Specifically, I'm lucky enough to have won an amount of money that will easily cover the cost of a new computer and then some.

So here's what I'm considering using to run CS3 + Prospect HD & After Effects (and probably not much else) to edit HQ 1920x1080 footage from the new Sony PMW-EX1.

M/B: Asus Blitz-Extreme
Processor: Intel Conroe (Quad Core) Q6700
RAM: 2Gb 1066Mhz DDR2 RAM
Video Card: Asus 512MB 8600GT

I already own the HDDs and I'm decided on the Video Card so I just want feedback on my motherboard, processor and RAM choices.

Am I way off? People are still telling me to consider Xeons, but others say no way. If I wait 2 weeks will I be able to get an 8 core processor?

Also, does the brand of RAM matter?

Finally, as for the case, I don't care what it looks like but I'd prefer quiet, as well as an in-built power supply that would suit all of the above, as well as a HD-DVD drive, Blu-Ray Drive, System HDD, 3 RAID 0 drives & 2 Video Cards. Any advice?

Thanks all for your assistance!

NO money limits? Buy an Avid Media Composer Adrenaline.

Well, I won't say NO money limits, but I'm also not going to go over the top for no reason.

I like CS3 and want to stay with it and I don't want the best just for the sake of having the best - I want the most capable for my purpose, which is CS3. That system is aimed way higher than the workflows I'll ever reach.

I would do a number of things differently. First off, consider budgeting for an AJA Xena card so you can get Hardware output of the timeline, and not rely on the second port of the graphics card. It will open up many other options as well. Currently AJA cards are the only ones supported by Prospect for preview.

For the Video Card, be aware that Nvidia limited the Video Overlay features in the Geforce8 Series, so if you don't get a Xena card, you want make sure you get the best Geforce7 card you can (probably 7950GT). If you get a Xena, that won't be an issue, so the recently released 8800GT will be the best option for you. (Faster, coolest running 8 series)

Get 4GB of RAM, no question. Brand shouldn't matter as much, but get a speed that is a linked you your FSB. The 1066 memory will be good for that CPU,as long as your MB supports it, which the ASUS does.

For the Xeon question, if money was NO OBJECT, then Xeon's for sure. For putting reasonable limits on, it just depends on how much of a power user you are. Will you switch over to work in AE while your PPro timeline is rendering, etc. I run 4 CS3 apps at once, and benefit from double as many cores. Waiting two weeks should lower Intel prices all the way around, if purchasing the new CPUs OR the old ones. The new ones will run cooler and more efficient, but won't be durastically faster.

I'm going to end up with 2 graphics cards (which I have at the moment) and have managed to get by without the full screen video function because CS3 allows for external playback of the timeline on another monitor, which seems to work fine. What would be the advantages of the AJA card over this process?

My research into Xeons is minimal and I don't know much about them.
What's the difference between all these:
Intel Xeon - 3000 Series
Intel Xeon Quad Core
Intel Xeon Socket 604

Is Quad Core the obvious best choice?

I also don't know a thing about which motherboard to look at for them.

Do they need server motherboards or will they fit on any 775 socket intel board?

Thanks for your help,
-- John.

Hi John

I would suggest you look at the Matrox range of products - RTX2 or Axio. They extend the realtime capabilities of CS3 and provide various outputs for broadcast monitors.

I've just ordered an Axio LE following an impressive demo...

Hope this helps

I don't know if I want anything like that really. I don't even really know what the "real-time capabilities" refers to.

I have no problem with my dual graphics card setup at the moment. I have dual 22" monitors to spread CS3 across and a 24" HD for the full screen video preview and I have zero problems diosplay wise.

What I want is a PC optimized for working with the PMW-EX1's HQ 1920x1080 footage in CS3 with Prospect HD. I can do that without those display adapters, nice as they might be, so I don't want to spend for the sake of spending, I just want to tailor a PC to my specific needs.

"True" Xeons require a dual 771 socket motherboard. You DON'T want Socket604 Xeons, they are two years out of date. Two quad-core Xeons will literally be twice as fast as a single Core2 Quad, for multithreaded apps.

The Xeon 3000 series is a renamed Core2 Quad, with few true advantages I am aware of. Might be work an extra $50 to know your CPU was one of the best off the production line. Xeon 3000 series chips use regular 775 sockets.

The AJA would offer 10 bit monitoring, and SDI I/O, but if all you are doing with it is monitoring the timeline on an LCD, then the graphics card solution should be fine. From what I have heard, that feature is limited in Geforce8 chips, so don't say you weren't warned if it doesn't work. The 7950GT would be a safer bet if you can find one.

The Axio LE would not be very compatible with the Cineform workflow, offer you one advantage. Axio systems can edit XDCam files natively, but I am not sure how the new EX format will work. With Axio, realtime means REALTIME, as in every supported effect plays back in realtime with absolutely no preview rendering. You will have to really commit to the AXIO solution to use it though. They are picky about hardware, etc.

I would say that AXIO is faster than Cineform, but Cineform usually offers higher quality compression and output, plus it scales to compressed 10bit and 2K if desired, and is much cheaper.

This is a difficulty for me because I can't find a motherboard that suits every purpose. Specifically, I'd like it to support the fastest RAM possible, which the ASUS Blitz Extreme does (it even supports DDR3) but people have said ASUS motherboards do not do too well with non-hardware RAID configurations. For that, I was recommended the ABIT IN9 32X-MAX LGA 775 NVIDIA nForce 680i SLI ATX Intel Motherboard but it only accepts DDR2800, not 1066, like the ASUS does. Is there a good motherboard that someone can recommend to me that does both (and must fit nVidia Graphics Cards too)?

I'm happy to get a Xeon, since most of the prices are only $20 - $30 more than the Intel Core 2 Quad processors anyway. What are the advantages of a Xeon over the regular processors exactly? And can I be sure that so long as I have a Socket 775 motherboard that the Xeon will work just fine?

Here's the one I'm looking at:

Intel Xeon X3230 Quad Core - 2.66GHz, 8MB Cache, LGA775, Active Cooling

There are faster ones which will hopefully come down in price between now and when I purchase so I could end up with a 3GHz one instead (hopefully).

Is that the right choice?

The new ones? Can you explain which ones you refer to?

Thanks very much for your help,

-- John.

I wouldn't sweat the Ram speed, I am considering the Abit board for my new build.

I mean that if money was no object DUAL Xeons for sure, with a worksation class system. At least twice the price.

The "new ones" are the new 45nm CPUs Intel is beginning to release next week. Not necessarily faster, but more efficient. (No real increase in clock speed, possibly thanks to no real competition from AMD)

Really? I've had others tell me to get the fastest speeds possible... I don't even know what the fastest speed is these days?

And also overkill, so I won't bother getting two. I'm definitely going to get a Quad Core processor, but I will not get two of them. Given that, does it matter a stuff whether I select Xeon or Core 2 Quad? The prices don't really suggest a quality jump so it confuses me a bt.



Are these new ones Xeons or just Core2 Quads?

You say you're looking at the ABIT board - what processor and RAM are you looking at to go with it?

The speeds are going up all the time, but those products are targeted toward gamers. Compare the speeds of professional workstations. DDR800 should be sufficient.

Many CPUs come off the same line, and are given speeds after testing to see whaich ones perform better. Xeons and Core2 Extremes theoretically should be where the best CPUs off the production line get directed. No significant difference between a Xeon 3000 and a Core2 Quad.

New everything, but over the next few months. Core2 Quad Extreme and Xeon5400 series first, next week. Then the rest of the desktop Core2s in about two months, and then Quad Core2 mobile CPUs in about another 2 months. (Estimated)

I will buy DDR800, whatever is cheap from a company I at least recognize, and a quad core 2.4Ghz CPU, unless prices drop a lot next week, then I will be at 2.66 or 3.0Ghz. I am hoping Nvidia releases a new chipset this month, so my motherboard research may bo out the window.

So if I'm going to just get one cpu it's insignificant whether I get Xeon or Core2Quad... That's interesting.

Could I ask you to keep me updated in this thread about your choices, particularly with motherboard - it's one area that I feel I'm way behind with.

I read somewhere recently that nvidia is supposed to release a new chipset soon, for the new CPUs. I am looking forward to PCIe 2.0 among other things. A new chipset will totally change the motherboard options, and will probably offer the faster Ram you are looking for. I am interested in Nvidia due to the SLI possibility as well as to test out there nTune software for optimizing performance.

When I buy a system, I will definitely post my selection choices on my website.

Thanks!

I hope that if that's the case, that my current graphics cards work in the new motherboard - I don't particularly want to have to upgrade those too.

I'm totally out of my depth here, but hey, when did that ever stop anyone? Actually I was just going to chime in with some probably irrelevant info, but when I was at NAB 2005, there was a presentation by a couple of guys from STEAM (I believe that was the name). Anyways, they did an HD spot for the Discovery Channel. Now, please, all you techies out there don't kill me for saying this, because I don't know a thing about it... the guy presenting said they used the Adobe software (Premiere, After Effects) on a BOXX system. According to him, they shot in HD, captured at full resolution, edited at full resolution and then output in both HD and SD. I remember he specifically mentioned that there was no "off-line editing" or low-res capture. He said the workflow was just the same as SD. I just thought I'd mention it. I know nothing about the BOXX systems, accept that they're supposed to be really good, and really expensive.

I don't really know much either, but the way I see it is that there isn't really a need for off-line editing at all these days, since so many computers are perfectly capable of handling HD footage.

I'd recommend a server spec motherboard (Tyan, Supermicro) a few high end Opteron chips, a huge RAID array for storage and as much high end RAM as you can get your mitts on. As far as GPUs go I'm not too sure if you'd be better off with a pair of high end consumer cards like the X1950 / 8800GTS or a pair of open GL cards.

My ideal machine:

Tyan s2895 Thunder mother board

2 X Opteron (fastest I could find) *Apparently more overclocking potential than Xeon chips*

32GB DDR RAM (match frequency to board, don't remember numbers at the mo, lowest latency possible) *Is it not possible to boot into openbsd and run the render engine on there? Which can access 32GB of RAM? I was told it was*

A full RAID 50 array of the new 360GB Raptor drives *apologies, I mean 150 and hit 360*

2 X PC Power and Cooling 1KW power supplies

2 X X1950 Graphics cards *Again the reason I mentioned x1950, is that they apparently have more overclocking potential than the Nvidia cards*

All sat inside a mountain mods U2 UFO Horizon case

Dual booting Windows XP and openBSD

This machine would be expensive but not stupidly so.

I would take a pair of QuadCore Xeons over Opterons any day. Anything over 4GB Ram requires 64bit OS, which limits your video I/O hardware. 360GB Raptor drives don't exist and would be unnecessary regardless. In a true limitless system, SAS would be the answer. For our reasonable limits, the new Seagate 1TB disks provide over 100MB/s per spindle at peak transfer rate. The X1950 is outdated, and I would definitely recommend Nvidia currently, the 8800GT being in the sweet spot.

To Bert: I would avoid BOXX, they got out of the video editing system business a while back, and focus on 3D. The systems they left behind to their users have serious reliability problems and are extremely unstable. I have used 4 Boxx systems at three different companies, and all have had massive problems.

PCIe 2.0 will definitely be backwards compatible for older cards. (Like AGP 2x)

Intel Core 2 Extreme QX6850/Quad Core CPU/3.00GHz/2 x 4MB L2 Cache/1333MHz FSB/LGA775 BX80562QX6850 -- $1,199 Australian dollars

It looks like this is the top of the range 65nm processor around at the moment (Am I right?)

But if these 45nm pocessors are coming soon, hopefully the price of this one will fall a bit.

So you're saying that the speed of the 45nm ones won't be increased, just their efficiency? Do you mean energy efficiency?

Do you think you'll end up choosinf a 45nm processor or 65nm? If the advantage of 45nm is only superficial it may not be worth whatever the price difference may be.

Another question (or two):

Some folks have been telling me that:

a) Quad Core is wasted on CS3 and pretty much anything else because programs only recognise two cores, and
b) 4 GB of RAM is wasted on CS3 and other programs because programs only recognise 2 GB anyway.

Can you shed some light on this arguement for me? It continues to confuse the heck out of me!

First of all, CS3 uses up to 16 cores. Second, the OS of choice currently is XP Pro, so memory should be 4 GB. Whether you want to use the PAE and 3 GB boot.ini switch depends on the programs you use.

From a hardware point of view, I would go for the following configuration:

1. Chassis: Supermicro SC745TQ-800
2. Mobo: Supermicro X7DAE+
3. CPU: 2 Intel Xeon X5365 quad core 3 GHz
4. RAM: 4x 1 GB DDR2-667 ECC FB-DIMM
5. Areca ARC 1231ML raid controller with BBM and 2 GB cache
6. WD Raptor 150 G ADFD boot disk
7. 8x Samsung Spinpoint 500 GB storage disks, 2 in raid0 and 6 in raid5
8. 2x NEC AD-7173S DVD burners
9. nVidia 8800 GT 512 MB video card

I don't think that currently you can do any better than this and again it proves that the ideal PC was and still is around $ 5.000. That was true 20 years ago, 10 years ago and is still true today.

Thanks Harm!

I can't even find these components listed on any web sites in Australia.

And the RAID controller on only one site.

What is the trouble with using RAID without the hardware controller? It seems like one of those things that may not be necessary...

Also, what's a chasis? When I've seen it referenced before I always thought it referred to the motherboard, but clearly not...
I have no idea what any of that means!!

Sorry to sound so ignorant!

Chassis is probably referring to the computer case.
Hardware RAID is the way to go if you can. Software raid will utilize your CPU and will probably not be as fast.

Others have given you a good idea about he memory and CPU limitations but here is my thinking as well even if they don't utilize the additional resources perfectly right now. Symmetrical programming is a nightmare. I am not sure though, once you hack your program for 2 cores how much different it is for additional processors. Either way you can assign programs to their own core for increased performance. Plus if you multitask you wont slow down as much while you have AE and PP3 open while downloading some additional music tracks and such. I remember when the first dual core CPUs came out and everyone screamed about what a waste of money there were and how it was just better to get a really fast single core CPU... well in some cases yes but you don't see anyone sticking to the Single core really fast CPU as much anymore do you? Give it time and they will find a way for one application to use 4 cores.

Here are the specs of a PC I just did for my CS3:

Intel Core2 processorQ6600 Quad Core
4GB DDR2 800Mhz Ram
500GB HDD
768MB NVIDIA GeForce 8800 GTX (I like to game too....)
Blu-ray AND 16X DVD+/-RW

Plus all the hard drives I all ready have. The only thing I did different this time is I let dell build it and I got the complete care warranty so I don't have to trouble shoot it if it dies. The price of building it my self and dell building it are so close these days. That is the only extra thing I would think about before building on my own.

That's doubtful. Most I've seen it utilise is two cores. Final Cut Pro uses about 2 cores with FCP6. Compressor uses more, but it's still slow as hell.

Mikko, you are quite correct when talking about CS2, but one of the improvements of CS3 is the support for multicore CPU's.

John, the reason for the raid controller and specifically the Areca ARC 1231 ML is the use of a hardware based (in this case the IOP341) processor is that is does not choke the CPU. As you may be aware a raid5 or even more a raid6 entails a rather significant computational burden for parity calculations. If that can be off-loaded to the raid controller instead of the CPU, that will show marked improvements in system thruput, disks being the major bottleneck of any system. The Areca is by far the fastest raid controller on the market, far better than 3Ware, LSI or software based cards like Promise or Highpoint.

A chassis is the case. For the PAE or 3 GB switch, these items have been discussed rather extensively here on the forums. I don't have the link at hand but a search here or on the Microsoft site will give you relevant information.

This seems like a good setup for a high end system. The only thing I would change is the possible addition of a Video I/O card, and I would do the storage system differently. 8x1TB disks in an eSATA RAID5 array is probably the fastest budget solution for video editing currently.

Mike,

In part I agree with you, one would need a PCI 3x FW card for I/O, but that is peanuts, one would also need a SGPIO cable for the LED control on the mobo, but again that is peanuts. Where I disagree is the 1 TB disks. Currently they are way more expensive than 500 GB disks. However, the 1231 ML has 12 SATA connectors, so you could start with 2 disks on the mobo in raid0, 6 in raid5 on the ARC and keep 6 lanes open for eSATA expansion in a separate rack. In that case you have 1 TB for pagefile and scratch, 2.5 TB for media and future expansion of 2.5 to 5 TB in an external storage rack. Seems sufficient to me. Also the case just does not take more than 9 hard disks and 2 DVD burners, so you have to revert to an external storage case.

Also bear in mind that the chassis has 8 hot swappable disk bays, so it is easy just to exchange 8 hard disks for the next set. From a price point of view, I guess my preference would be to have two sets of 8 disks of 500 G each instead of one set of 1 TB each and still keep some change in my wallet.

Firewire is not what I meant by video I/O. For a high end system, you need a Xena, a Multibridge or an AXIO card. That allows spanned monitors for the interface from your graphics card, plus an independent video monitoring solution, ideally 10bit if money was no object. Some cards accelerate processing as well.

I agree that 500GB disks are much cheaper, but Money was supposed to be no object, within reason. An 8 disk array runs cooler and quieter, and will be easier to deal with than some split plane solution. I no longer use dedicated scratch disks. Modern arrays are fast enough to map Premieres scratch folders onto the same array as the video and audio files. I never render previews anyway (See I/O card). Obviously the ultimate solution would be a SAN with a local raid for scratch files.

I can cope with a single super fast quad core processor on a top notch motherboard and 4 GB of RAM and enough HDDs to suit my purpose. But I fear that maybe this "Super computer" with dual quad core Xeon processors with RAID controllers and even talk of AXIO cards is not aligned with my needs.

Like I said in the first post, I will be editing 35Mb 1920x1080 footage from the XDCAM EX in CS3 (hopefully) and Magic Bullet (even more hopefully). My projects will probably be between 90 minutes and 2 hours. Chances are I can do that with my dual core AMD 4400+ and 2 GB of RAM.

But I'd rather something that didn't "stutter" the way mine does when I ask too much of it.

So as much as I appreciate all the suggestions for a super computer, I'm really just looking for recommendations for the described workflow. And I don't want something that's just adequate. I do want something that can handle it and then some.

All of the suggestions so far sound great, but also sound like I'd be indulging in goodness that I'd never take advantage of.

Well man, you are the one who titled your thread "money is no object..." I don't disagree that a single socket Core2 Quad should be sufficient for you. I would Raid 0 two large SATA disks for economic storage.

I know, but I did hope to keep it specific to my workflow. I appreciate the help, don't get me wrong - it's helped me figure out heaps about what's a good computer.

I think I'll end up with a single Quad Core (don't know whether Xeon or not).

You said that a single Quad Core would be sufficient but would it run nicely or would it limp at times under the pressure of Magic Bullet and 1920x1080 footage.

Depends on what you are doing with Magic Bullet. The original MB will never be realtime, but that was for converting NTSC to 24p. If you mean CCR work with looks or colorista, that will primarily be a function of the graphics card I believe. A Geforce 8800 will be the best option, I reccommend a GT (Unless you need fullscreen video overlay support)

I will have Looks (provided I can install the program without ruining my codecs) and use that.

As for needing the full screen video overlay, CS3 can force the full screen video preview regardless of the nVidia settings. When I installed the drivers for my 8600 GT they removed the full screen overlay function from the nVidia control panel but CS3 can still do it without a hitch.

Interesting, not everyone has the same experience with the GeForce8 series. I believe it is confirmed not to work with Prospect full screen overlay in Premiere, but you are indicating that it can still work in desktop mode. I will have to check more, now that I got my 8800GTX back.

I don't know if we mean the same thing though. When using CS3 (with no Prospect though) I ignore the full screen overlay in the nVidia overlay (which can't be turned on anyway) and adjust the Playback Settings in CS3's preview monitor to set it to "Playback on External Monitor" or whatever it's called. And You can choose which monitor and it works flawlessly.

See if either of these two links help at all:

http://www.videoguys.com/DIY5updateNAB07.html

http://www.guygraphics.com/GGSUBCAT-...28NLEs%29.html

Thanks for that! I'm still struggling to understand which motherboard fits which processor.

Also, I read today that if you have a motherboard with two separate processors you must have two copies of windows - one for each processor. Is that correct?

Not as far as I know.

Heavens no - but you do need a sufficiently recent version of Windows to make the best use of multiple processors and multi-core processors. Windows XP Pro should be sufficient.

Just found what appears to be this motherboard here though it doesn't have the "plus" at the end, which I cannot find anywhere in this country.

Anyway, on the website it says that this motherboard will only support 2 x quad xeons to a maximum speed of 2.66GHz.

Is this true? I cannot find ANY reliable sources or sites that can direct me with any confidence to the correct answers to these sorts of questions. I cannot for the life of me decide which of the 3GHz Xeons or Core2Quads is the best nor can I figure out which Motherboard suits which!

It's ridiculous!