Narrowing down the target for me. (PLEASE!) XL1s, PD-150, AG-DVX100

Chris Hurd · October 19th, 2002, 07:37 PM

David, at the very least, you'll need a good tripod, unless you plan on going handheld for your entire shoot. Then there's the cost of blank media. Audio is half of what you see, so yes, microphones are a big consideration. And how are you going to edit? This should be worked into your budget.

If it's only one project you're doing, then you might want to consider renting the gear as you'll get more bang for your buck that way.

Under three thousand dollars, you're pretty much limited to the Canon GL2 or the Sony VX2000 with just enough left over maybe for a half-way decent tripod.

Aaron Koolen · October 19th, 2002, 08:48 PM

Hi David. Hardcore? Maybe *stupid*, I dunno? :) The reason I want mic(s) and stuff is simple.

1) I don't know anyone who has any gear. I know people keen on acting, and helping out but that's it.
2) I want to make lots of short movies (I have several scripts in the works) so renting seems a little silly financially.
3) If I own the gear, it's always there, ready for me to do stuff with.
4) If I go broke I can flog it off and make some money back ;)
5) I know people interested in making their own movies but they don't have gear or money. By sharing my gear it just helps get more people creating more good stuff.

I won't be getting all the gear that I want, that would definately blow my budget, but I will be able to get enough good DV equipment to be able to make short movies to a "reasonable" quality.

Catch ya
Aaron

Don Berube · October 19th, 2002, 09:12 PM

David,

Before you buy anything, take a look at the GL2.

- don

Jeff Donald · October 19th, 2002, 09:20 PM

David,

The cameras are the fun stuff of the business and dreams that take place here. The cameras are what many dream about and what dreams are made of. Many people dream about making a movie. They buy a camera, shoot the scenes and paste them together. The camera goes on a shelf in the closet, only to be sold on ebay in 9 months. End of that dream, on to the next.

It is fun to talk about cameras and their many features, functions and benefits. Cameras are the fun stuff. Less talked about, but equally important for good films, are tripods, microphones, cases, filters, lenses, hoods, lighting kits, grip kits, cables, matte boxes . . . to name a few. You can search any one of those essential items and get various opinions. I can't say you need every item on a list, but I can guarantee you will need a couple of those items.

Figure out what the essentials are for your project and build a budget for all the items, not just the sexy camera. If you're unsure of your needs, maybe a few details about the type of projects and locations you want to use are in order. Then maybe, with the facts, you can separate your needs for film making from you wants.

Jeff

Zac Stein · October 19th, 2002, 09:24 PM

Well,

you need a tripod for sure, with a nice fluid head for smooth movement.

Have external mic's and boom poles/shock mounts is not excessive at all. On camera sound is almost always pathetic or barely usable.

With no light how can you see what is happening? and if the lights are wrong temp/looking how can you get a consistent good look.

And you what about post, you got computer/software/storage space.

Nothing about making movies is cheap.

kermie

David Nussbaum · October 19th, 2002, 10:24 PM

I have premiere, and my dad is buying a new computer with ALOT of gigs. im talkin 130+, and a SUPER fast harddrive, and a DVD burner and what not.

And im not just some kid who wants to make a movie because i saw "Dude wheres my car"

it is seriously such a strong passion for me. I already wrote about 5 shorts, and 2 feature lengths.

I make a short about every month, and im doing it so much ive decided its time to get serious. Thus, a good camera, etc.

Im getting a job within the next few days, so i will be able to buy a Mic and what not.

you guys probably just picture me as some kid who thought XxX was the coolest movie since Tomb Raider.

Once I get my first REAL short up online...you'll see...

How come you guys can invest in it, but I cant?

And I can get the camera whether its 3,000 or 3,500. like i said, i dont have a strict limit.

My parents are seeing my talent more and more as it is revealed in my shorts, so they are HAPPY to buy me such a gift.

I hope you see where I'm coming from.

Zac Stein · October 19th, 2002, 10:41 PM

Nobody is doubting your talent in the slightest, just giving you a cold shower to see the hurdles at every step of the way.

kermie

Jeff Donald · October 19th, 2002, 10:53 PM

We do see the passion and that is part of the problem. Passion alone won't make a great, or even good film. There are many essentials required for good film making and passion is only one. In the overall scheme of things, which of the three cameras your lusting after is not that important. the decision between the three won't make or break your project. But poor quality audio or unsteady camera work can be a disaster. These are things you can't fix in post, no matter how fast your computer or how big your hard drive.

Just as an example, the minimum I would plan on spending for a new tripod that will support the XL1 is $1,000 or a little more. The built in microphone on all three cameras is inadequate for every type project except maybe the neighbors birthday party. A decent shotgun microphone will set you back $300. If you want a wireless rig, add another $500. The external mics for the XL1 will require and XLR audio adapter so add another $250 or more. Both the Sony and the Panasonic support XLR audio so you're in luck there. A decent case will set you back at least $100 but more like $200 to $250 for one that will hold a little extra gear. Throw in some no-name, extra batteries for another $75 bucks each.

You're worrying about the quality of these great cameras, so now you need some filters to protect the great optics you've sweated over. Don't buy the cheap ones, because what's the point of putting cheap filters over all that great glass you've paid so much for. You'll need at least a UV and a polarizer and possibly a neutral density filter. Average them together at $50 apiece and you might be OK.

Believe me there is more, cables, lights, tape just to name a few. No one is trying to discourage you or your hopes and aspirations. But you need to make realistic decisions based on facts and real world experience.

Jeff

Zac Stein · October 19th, 2002, 11:25 PM

Jeff,

so well put.

kermie

David Nussbaum · October 19th, 2002, 11:49 PM

jeff, good post.

but i mean...the first step is buying the camera... isnt it? so should i choose one that best fits my priorities?

Chris Hurd · October 20th, 2002, 12:19 AM

<< the first step is buying the camera... >>

Well actually the first step is to do extensive pre-production, and get every last little detail put down on paper (storyboard, script, shot list, props, locations, crew, schedule, etc.), then worry about the gear.

<< so should i choose one that best fits my priorities? >>

Yes David but there is so much more to it than that, sort of a larger picture which you should be considering right now instead of just the camera.

Jeff and others have given you some extremely good advice.

In the long run, the "which camera" question really doesn't mean very much. Ultimately what it all boils down to is, the biggest difference between them are their color signatures (the "Canon" look of the video versus the "Sony" look) and you can tweak that a bit in post anyway.

The primary thing that we're trying to impress upon you here is, if you have a fixed amount of money for this (don't we all), then you owe it to yourself to consider what tools you're going to need, all of them, and not to concentrate so hard on the camera.

If you've chosen to go with a three-chipper like the VX2000, etc. then that would indicate that you're serious about the quality, and if you're serious about the quality then you're not going to take audio from the camera mic (the single worst place to mount a microphone). You're going to want to look at a high-quality mic to match the high-quality camera, which is going to put you out of at least $700 or so of your budget. Then there's the tripod, which Jeff mentioned ain't going to be cheap either.

What you'll find in the long run is "which camera" really doesn't matter. GL2, VX2000, DVX-100, whatever, you can do wonderful things with any of them. There's no "wrong decision" you can make between them. The one that's right for you is the one which feels best in your hands. Can't get them in your hands? Look over the pctures, read the manuals, read the user reports. In the long run, they're all good and it doesn't matter which one you choose as long as you put it to good use, which I have no doubt you will. Just be careful not to spend your budget in one place... take into consideration your audio requirements, tripod, blank media, feeding your crew, that sort of thing. Hope this helps,

David Nussbaum · October 20th, 2002, 11:12 AM

<< Well actually the first step is to do extensive pre-production, and get every last little detail put down on paper (storyboard, script, shot list, props, locations, crew, schedule, etc.), then worry about the gear. >>

one step ahead of you :D I have all that already.

you are absolutely right. I think I'm just gonna go with the PD-150. My friend has the VX2000, so i dont think it would be wise to buy the same one. I don't think i'll get the XL1s, because I dont think I could take advantage of the interchangable lenses...yet... and for the DVX100... if a review comes out before i buy the PD-150, i might have to decide between those two.

oh, and about the Mic, luckily my first short we are doing has no dialogue, so it gives me time to buy a mic.

which mics would you recommend? and the rods, etc?

also, how big is the difference between a shot gun mic you put on the camera, and one you need a boomstick for?

Robert Bobson · March 8th, 2003, 10:18 AM

1)

Has anyone tried attaching some kind of "weight" to the pd-150 to improve stability? I'm interested in any experiments in this regard.

2)

someone in this post said deinterlaced video from a pd-150 looked better than frame mode in the xl1s. Any comments on why this would be? doesn't frame mode in xl1s combine both fields into one progressive frame, whereas deinterlacing throws one field away and doubles the remaining field?

Thanks.

October 19th, 2002, 07:37 PM	#16
Chris Hurd Obstreperous Rex Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: San Marcos, TX Posts: 27,366 Images: 513	David, at the very least, you'll need a good tripod, unless you plan on going handheld for your entire shoot. Then there's the cost of blank media. Audio is half of what you see, so yes, microphones are a big consideration. And how are you going to edit? This should be worked into your budget. If it's only one project you're doing, then you might want to consider renting the gear as you'll get more bang for your buck that way. Under three thousand dollars, you're pretty much limited to the Canon GL2 or the Sony VX2000 with just enough left over maybe for a half-way decent tripod. __________________ CH Search DV Info Net \| 20 years of DVi \| ...Tuesday is Soylent Green Day!

October 19th, 2002, 09:12 PM	#18
Don Berube Moderator Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Boston, MA (travel frequently) Posts: 837	David, Before you buy anything, take a look at the GL2. - don __________________ DONALD BERUBE - noisybrain. Productions, LLC Director Of Photography/ Producer/ Consultant http://noisybrain.com/donbio.html CREATE and NETWORK with http://www.bosfcpug.org and also http://fcpugnetwork.org

October 19th, 2002, 10:24 PM	#21
David Nussbaum Regular Crew Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Issaquah, WA Posts: 69	I have premiere, and my dad is buying a new computer with ALOT of gigs. im talkin 130+, and a SUPER fast harddrive, and a DVD burner and what not. And im not just some kid who wants to make a movie because i saw "Dude wheres my car" it is seriously such a strong passion for me. I already wrote about 5 shorts, and 2 feature lengths. I make a short about every month, and im doing it so much ive decided its time to get serious. Thus, a good camera, etc. Im getting a job within the next few days, so i will be able to buy a Mic and what not. you guys probably just picture me as some kid who thought XxX was the coolest movie since Tomb Raider. Once I get my first REAL short up online...you'll see... How come you guys can invest in it, but I cant? And I can get the camera whether its 3,000 or 3,500. like i said, i dont have a strict limit. My parents are seeing my talent more and more as it is revealed in my shorts, so they are HAPPY to buy me such a gift. I hope you see where I'm coming from. __________________ Proud Owner of the AG-DVX100 :D

October 19th, 2002, 11:49 PM	#25
David Nussbaum Regular Crew Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Issaquah, WA Posts: 69	jeff, good post. but i mean...the first step is buying the camera... isnt it? so should i choose one that best fits my priorities? __________________ Proud Owner of the AG-DVX100 :D

October 20th, 2002, 12:19 AM	#26
Chris Hurd Obstreperous Rex Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: San Marcos, TX Posts: 27,366 Images: 513	<< the first step is buying the camera... >> Well actually the first step is to do extensive pre-production, and get every last little detail put down on paper (storyboard, script, shot list, props, locations, crew, schedule, etc.), then worry about the gear. << so should i choose one that best fits my priorities? >> Yes David but there is so much more to it than that, sort of a larger picture which you should be considering right now instead of just the camera. Jeff and others have given you some extremely good advice. In the long run, the "which camera" question really doesn't mean very much. Ultimately what it all boils down to is, the biggest difference between them are their color signatures (the "Canon" look of the video versus the "Sony" look) and you can tweak that a bit in post anyway. The primary thing that we're trying to impress upon you here is, if you have a fixed amount of money for this (don't we all), then you owe it to yourself to consider what tools you're going to need, all of them, and not to concentrate so hard on the camera. If you've chosen to go with a three-chipper like the VX2000, etc. then that would indicate that you're serious about the quality, and if you're serious about the quality then you're not going to take audio from the camera mic (the single worst place to mount a microphone). You're going to want to look at a high-quality mic to match the high-quality camera, which is going to put you out of at least $700 or so of your budget. Then there's the tripod, which Jeff mentioned ain't going to be cheap either. What you'll find in the long run is "which camera" really doesn't matter. GL2, VX2000, DVX-100, whatever, you can do wonderful things with any of them. There's no "wrong decision" you can make between them. The one that's right for you is the one which feels best in your hands. Can't get them in your hands? Look over the pctures, read the manuals, read the user reports. In the long run, they're all good and it doesn't matter which one you choose as long as you put it to good use, which I have no doubt you will. Just be careful not to spend your budget in one place... take into consideration your audio requirements, tripod, blank media, feeding your crew, that sort of thing. Hope this helps, __________________ CH Search DV Info Net \| 20 years of DVi \| ...Tuesday is Soylent Green Day!

October 19th, 2002, 08:48 PM	#17
Aaron Koolen Trustee Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Auckland, New Zealand Posts: 1,727	Hi David. Hardcore? Maybe stupid, I dunno? :) The reason I want mic(s) and stuff is simple. 1) I don't know anyone who has any gear. I know people keen on acting, and helping out but that's it. 2) I want to make lots of short movies (I have several scripts in the works) so renting seems a little silly financially. 3) If I own the gear, it's always there, ready for me to do stuff with. 4) If I go broke I can flog it off and make some money back ;) 5) I know people interested in making their own movies but they don't have gear or money. By sharing my gear it just helps get more people creating more good stuff. I won't be getting all the gear that I want, that would definately blow my budget, but I will be able to get enough good DV equipment to be able to make short movies to a "reasonable" quality. Catch ya Aaron

October 19th, 2002, 09:20 PM	#19
Jeff Donald Warden Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Clearwater, FL Posts: 8,287	David, The cameras are the fun stuff of the business and dreams that take place here. The cameras are what many dream about and what dreams are made of. Many people dream about making a movie. They buy a camera, shoot the scenes and paste them together. The camera goes on a shelf in the closet, only to be sold on ebay in 9 months. End of that dream, on to the next. It is fun to talk about cameras and their many features, functions and benefits. Cameras are the fun stuff. Less talked about, but equally important for good films, are tripods, microphones, cases, filters, lenses, hoods, lighting kits, grip kits, cables, matte boxes . . . to name a few. You can search any one of those essential items and get various opinions. I can't say you need every item on a list, but I can guarantee you will need a couple of those items. Figure out what the essentials are for your project and build a budget for all the items, not just the sexy camera. If you're unsure of your needs, maybe a few details about the type of projects and locations you want to use are in order. Then maybe, with the facts, you can separate your needs for film making from you wants. Jeff

October 19th, 2002, 09:24 PM	#20
Zac Stein Major Player Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Melbourne, Australia Posts: 730	Well, you need a tripod for sure, with a nice fluid head for smooth movement. Have external mic's and boom poles/shock mounts is not excessive at all. On camera sound is almost always pathetic or barely usable. With no light how can you see what is happening? and if the lights are wrong temp/looking how can you get a consistent good look. And you what about post, you got computer/software/storage space. Nothing about making movies is cheap. kermie

October 19th, 2002, 10:41 PM	#22
Zac Stein Major Player Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Melbourne, Australia Posts: 730	Nobody is doubting your talent in the slightest, just giving you a cold shower to see the hurdles at every step of the way. kermie

October 19th, 2002, 10:53 PM	#23
Jeff Donald Warden Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Clearwater, FL Posts: 8,287	We do see the passion and that is part of the problem. Passion alone won't make a great, or even good film. There are many essentials required for good film making and passion is only one. In the overall scheme of things, which of the three cameras your lusting after is not that important. the decision between the three won't make or break your project. But poor quality audio or unsteady camera work can be a disaster. These are things you can't fix in post, no matter how fast your computer or how big your hard drive. Just as an example, the minimum I would plan on spending for a new tripod that will support the XL1 is $1,000 or a little more. The built in microphone on all three cameras is inadequate for every type project except maybe the neighbors birthday party. A decent shotgun microphone will set you back $300. If you want a wireless rig, add another $500. The external mics for the XL1 will require and XLR audio adapter so add another $250 or more. Both the Sony and the Panasonic support XLR audio so you're in luck there. A decent case will set you back at least $100 but more like $200 to $250 for one that will hold a little extra gear. Throw in some no-name, extra batteries for another $75 bucks each. You're worrying about the quality of these great cameras, so now you need some filters to protect the great optics you've sweated over. Don't buy the cheap ones, because what's the point of putting cheap filters over all that great glass you've paid so much for. You'll need at least a UV and a polarizer and possibly a neutral density filter. Average them together at $50 apiece and you might be OK. Believe me there is more, cables, lights, tape just to name a few. No one is trying to discourage you or your hopes and aspirations. But you need to make realistic decisions based on facts and real world experience. Jeff

October 19th, 2002, 11:25 PM	#24
Zac Stein Major Player Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Melbourne, Australia Posts: 730	Jeff, so well put. kermie

October 20th, 2002, 11:12 AM	#27
David Nussbaum Regular Crew Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Issaquah, WA Posts: 69	<< Well actually the first step is to do extensive pre-production, and get every last little detail put down on paper (storyboard, script, shot list, props, locations, crew, schedule, etc.), then worry about the gear. >> one step ahead of you :D I have all that already. you are absolutely right. I think I'm just gonna go with the PD-150. My friend has the VX2000, so i dont think it would be wise to buy the same one. I don't think i'll get the XL1s, because I dont think I could take advantage of the interchangable lenses...yet... and for the DVX100... if a review comes out before i buy the PD-150, i might have to decide between those two. oh, and about the Mic, luckily my first short we are doing has no dialogue, so it gives me time to buy a mic. which mics would you recommend? and the rods, etc? also, how big is the difference between a shot gun mic you put on the camera, and one you need a boomstick for? __________________ Proud Owner of the AG-DVX100 :D

March 8th, 2003, 10:18 AM	#28
Robert Bobson Major Player Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Bay City, Michigan Posts: 585	2 questions 1) Has anyone tried attaching some kind of "weight" to the pd-150 to improve stability? I'm interested in any experiments in this regard. 2) someone in this post said deinterlaced video from a pd-150 looked better than frame mode in the xl1s. Any comments on why this would be? doesn't frame mode in xl1s combine both fields into one progressive frame, whereas deinterlacing throws one field away and doubles the remaining field? Thanks.