24p look without 24fps (or does digital solve this) at DVinfo.net

Graeme Hay · February 21st, 2010, 11:34 PM

One thing that bugs me about movies is the refresh rate of film in theaters. I'm not sure if others notices it but the movie is "flashing" as each frame is shown on the projector.

I'm wondering if as we move to more digital production and projection systems if this will continue to be an issue (like LCD's don't "refresh" the same way as CRTs).

If not, how do I film a movie to get that 24p feel, but have it so that the end result is not 24p, and thus not flashy to me?

Ervin Farkas · February 22nd, 2010, 09:41 AM

The "24p feel" is just that: 24fps, always has beens flashing, always will be, more or less - some people won't even notice it, some are bothered by it (me included).

If you meant "movie feel" - there's a lot more to it than frame rate... lighting... depth of field... colors...

Put me too on the list of people waiting for cinematographers finally giving up on 24p!

Graeme Hay · February 22nd, 2010, 11:58 AM

Ervin, I agree there is more to that movie feel than frame rate, but I think I got the rest covered, I just want to remove the "flashing" of 24fps as it annoys me as well (especially on wide bright scenes with little action)

Bryan Cantwell · February 22nd, 2010, 11:39 PM

Well, like he said, 24p is 24p, the only way to "change" it to get rid of the visible flashing is to, well, change it. Digital projection won't make it any faster. It may make the projection cleaner, which may change your visible objections, but without tracking down a digital projection theater there's really no way to tell.

Lighting, lenses, color and more can all be played with to get a "film" look, and shooting at faster frame rates should alleviate the "flashing" of the slower frame rate. That and migrating to shooting with the Red One, Scarlet, etc. :)

But again, it comes down to perception, which is a very personal beast, and as such will always be a little fluid.

Ervin Farkas · February 23rd, 2010, 09:14 AM

Even on European movies (25P) I can see the flashing now living in the US, after I got used to 30fps. 25i is OK, but it's sort of history now with the CRT era coming to an end.

Basically you have two options. If you already have video shot at 24p, add more frames with some expensive software or hardware. For movies you will be shooting from now on, shoot at higher frame rate, at 30fps most of us will perceive continuous movement.

If you choose to add frames, choose 'blend' instead of 'nearest frame' and add some blur. Telecine, if well done, produces fairly fluent movement, in other words, gets rid of most of the flashing.

Reed Hewitt · March 4th, 2010, 02:23 PM

In the theater, each frame of film is flashed on screen two or three times, so the "refresh" rate is actually 48 or 72 fps. This is supposed to reduce the flicker effect, but of course there are still only 24 unique frames, so the action on screen doesn't lose any of it's cinematic jitter.

Wikipedia: Movie projector - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I'm guessing that digital projection at higher frame rates would be similar, with less flicker, but not smoother motion. I suppose they could implement some kind of algorithm that digitally interpolates the in-between frames and smooths out the action on screen.

I guess I'm blessed to have "slow eyes". Flickering and motion jitter have never been very noticeable to me, at least not if the movie is good enough. : )

Wesley Cardone · March 9th, 2010, 08:11 AM

If you have 24p capabilities on your cameras you probably also have 30p. Use 30p.

What you are really looking for in a "film look" is a non-newsie, non-soap opera look. You get this by merely shooting progressive, "p." Beyond that you will want to mimimic the physical characteristics of celluloid film. Most of the pro-sumer cameras used in event videography have the means to mimic this. Another option is to use a third-party plug-in with your NLE which will give you that celluloid film color characteristics.

Probably about all of the vendors with plug-ins have try-before-you-buy options so that you can evaluate each vendor tool's effectiveness.

But the main thing for you is to just simply dump 24p in favor of 30p. 30p gives you everything you ever wanted in 24p but without its legacy limitations.

February 21st, 2010, 11:34 PM	#1
Graeme Hay Major Player Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada Posts: 202	24p look without 24fps (or does digital solve this) One thing that bugs me about movies is the refresh rate of film in theaters. I'm not sure if others notices it but the movie is "flashing" as each frame is shown on the projector. I'm wondering if as we move to more digital production and projection systems if this will continue to be an issue (like LCD's don't "refresh" the same way as CRTs). If not, how do I film a movie to get that 24p feel, but have it so that the end result is not 24p, and thus not flashy to me? __________________ Independent Filmmaker in Canada's Capital

February 22nd, 2010, 09:41 AM	#2
Ervin Farkas Inner Circle Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Atlanta/USA Posts: 2,515	The "24p feel" is just that: 24fps, always has beens flashing, always will be, more or less - some people won't even notice it, some are bothered by it (me included). If you meant "movie feel" - there's a lot more to it than frame rate... lighting... depth of field... colors... Put me too on the list of people waiting for cinematographers finally giving up on 24p! __________________ Ervin Farkas www.AtlantaLegalVideo.com

February 22nd, 2010, 11:58 AM	#3
Graeme Hay Major Player Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada Posts: 202	Ervin, I agree there is more to that movie feel than frame rate, but I think I got the rest covered, I just want to remove the "flashing" of 24fps as it annoys me as well (especially on wide bright scenes with little action) __________________ Independent Filmmaker in Canada's Capital

February 23rd, 2010, 09:14 AM	#5
Ervin Farkas Inner Circle Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Atlanta/USA Posts: 2,515	Even on European movies (25P) I can see the flashing now living in the US, after I got used to 30fps. 25i is OK, but it's sort of history now with the CRT era coming to an end. Basically you have two options. If you already have video shot at 24p, add more frames with some expensive software or hardware. For movies you will be shooting from now on, shoot at higher frame rate, at 30fps most of us will perceive continuous movement. If you choose to add frames, choose 'blend' instead of 'nearest frame' and add some blur. Telecine, if well done, produces fairly fluent movement, in other words, gets rid of most of the flashing. __________________ Ervin Farkas www.AtlantaLegalVideo.com

March 9th, 2010, 08:11 AM	#7
Wesley Cardone Regular Crew Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Chelsea, Michigan Posts: 104	If you have 24p capabilities on your cameras you probably also have 30p. Use 30p. What you are really looking for in a "film look" is a non-newsie, non-soap opera look. You get this by merely shooting progressive, "p." Beyond that you will want to mimimic the physical characteristics of celluloid film. Most of the pro-sumer cameras used in event videography have the means to mimic this. Another option is to use a third-party plug-in with your NLE which will give you that celluloid film color characteristics. Probably about all of the vendors with plug-ins have try-before-you-buy options so that you can evaluate each vendor tool's effectiveness. But the main thing for you is to just simply dump 24p in favor of 30p. 30p gives you everything you ever wanted in 24p but without its legacy limitations. __________________ Wesley Cardone www.WCardoneProductions.com, Detroit and Lansing, Michigan

February 22nd, 2010, 11:39 PM	#4
Bryan Cantwell Major Player Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Terre Haute, IN Posts: 277	Well, like he said, 24p is 24p, the only way to "change" it to get rid of the visible flashing is to, well, change it. Digital projection won't make it any faster. It may make the projection cleaner, which may change your visible objections, but without tracking down a digital projection theater there's really no way to tell. Lighting, lenses, color and more can all be played with to get a "film" look, and shooting at faster frame rates should alleviate the "flashing" of the slower frame rate. That and migrating to shooting with the Red One, Scarlet, etc. :) But again, it comes down to perception, which is a very personal beast, and as such will always be a little fluid.

March 4th, 2010, 02:23 PM	#6
Reed Hewitt Regular Crew Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Florida Posts: 46	In the theater, each frame of film is flashed on screen two or three times, so the "refresh" rate is actually 48 or 72 fps. This is supposed to reduce the flicker effect, but of course there are still only 24 unique frames, so the action on screen doesn't lose any of it's cinematic jitter. Wikipedia: Movie projector - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia I'm guessing that digital projection at higher frame rates would be similar, with less flicker, but not smoother motion. I suppose they could implement some kind of algorithm that digitally interpolates the in-between frames and smooths out the action on screen. I guess I'm blessed to have "slow eyes". Flickering and motion jitter have never been very noticeable to me, at least not if the movie is good enough. : )