Is it possible to pull focus on a lens while crash zooming?

Brian Drysdale · January 26th, 2019, 12:36 PM

If the actors are moving slowly or not at all during the speed ramp section of the shot, you won't get comedy type movement in their actions,

Ryan Elder · January 26th, 2019, 01:14 PM

Okay thanks, I'm just worried that the movements are going to look unrealistic if they are too slow or too still. However, if I am going to speed ramp it, should I use timewarp to add additional motion blur to the frames, since there would naturally be more motion blur if moving the camera really fast?

Also it was said that the zooms are regarded as cheesy, but the recommendation instead was to do speed it up with heavy post VFX manipulation. Wouldn't VFX also run the risk of looking cheesy, since it's VFX and not captured naturally in camera?

Josh Bass · January 26th, 2019, 04:31 PM

At this point I would start doing tests of all the ideas you have of different ways to do it. Rope family or friends in for an hour or whatever it takes, find a suitable stand in location, something where you could block the actors the way you imagine they would be on the real shoot day, and record tests where you try the gimabl thing, try the speed up thing, try the speed up thing with them moving normally and without moving at all, borrow the right kind of lens or rent it for the test day, basically every variation of each of the many ideas tossed around here. I think thats the only way to know if x will look to cheesy/stupid.

Brian Drysdale · January 26th, 2019, 04:40 PM

Test. test, test is the way to go.

Speed ramps have been used on quite a few films.

Here's an example that has both slow and a fast speed ramp. Usually they're used for slow motion, so doing the reverse, by going faster, is different.

Lying and cheating is all part of filmmaking.

Ryan Elder · January 26th, 2019, 04:59 PM

Okay thanks. It's just that when speed ramps were done before, the directors intended for the actors to look like they were moving faster, where as I am not, so I didn't think it would work for mine. But I can try it. If I were able to get my hands on a parfocal lens do you still think that a speed ramped gimbal move for the shot, would look better than a crash zoom?

I mean it was said before that crash zooms do not look cinematic cause they are done often in documentary TV shows. But fast speed ramps are also done in documentary TV shows, so wouldn't also look TV-ish, as a result?

Brian Drysdale · January 26th, 2019, 05:42 PM

Speed ramps are used in action films.

Doing a test is the best way to find out. No one here knows the build up or what happens afterwards, so any decision up to you. However, unless whole crash zoom shot is quick and doesn't linger I would tend not to use it.

Ryan Elder · January 26th, 2019, 06:13 PM

Okay thanks. I should watch more action films :).

Well I did a test here. One advantage over the speed ramp compared to my zoom lens is that I can cover a lot more ground.

Here are two speed ramp tests I did with some footage where I ran with a gimbal. The second speed ramp, I added additional motion blur to it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8yOA...ature=youtu.be

Do these speed ramps look like I did it properly, and does the added motion blur help?

Pete Cofrancesco · January 26th, 2019, 07:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ryan Wray

Okay thanks, sorry just trying to establish all the possibilities, since the focus ring thing was pointed out now.

As it for it being cheesy, I mean it is used in big budget Hollywood movies like Rise of the Planet of the Apes being the most recent I can think of where I saw it, so I figured if it's good enough for that, than it must not be so bad.

But if I have to, I can just run with the camera on a gimbal and speed it up, like it was suggested to. How do you make it look like it's not obviously sped up though, when it is?

None of us has vested interest in you doing it in a particular way. We are saying if you have your heart set on that type of zoom then get the proper lens. That is purely a technical point. Whether you should do it in the first place is a subjective question. Generally speaking a technique is not intrinsically good or bad it’s the application. It be like asking if you should use a wide angle lens.

Ryan Elder · January 26th, 2019, 07:04 PM

Okay thanks I see what you mean.

Well I could do the speed ramp way if it means saving on trying to rent such a lens. I mean it was said that crash zooms look cheesy so if the speed ramp way is better than I could do that if it will work.

What about the speed ramp, did it look better than a crash zoom possibly?

Josh Bass · January 27th, 2019, 01:40 AM

For me (remember this is only guy's opinion) the answer would be no. When it speeds up the composition goes completely to hell. If that trash can was your subject you would want it to stay fairly centered during the fast part and it does everything but. Plus your planned move, that we've been discussing for 6 pages, is the opposite of that anyway, right? start close, quickly go wide?

Anyway, the idea was for the move to look fairly smooth and not janky...that test definitely does not.

Brian Drysdale · January 27th, 2019, 03:18 AM

I suspect you don't have the resources to have the camera steady enough for a good fast speed ramp. When making films sometimes you (more than you'd want) have to bite the bullet and spend money to create what you want.

Ryan Elder · January 27th, 2019, 03:46 AM

Okay thanks. Well normally someone else operates the gimbal where as for this test, I just borrowed it from a film school and ran as fast as I could down the street. However the wind kept turning it and keeping it from having a dead on frontal POV.

But again, in the past I have gotten a separate gimbal operator with more experience, where as this was just a practice test I did myself to see how it would look speed ramped.

I would get a gimbal operator to do it for the actual movie when we shoot it, it's just I don't know any would be interested in operating the gimbal for me, for a day, just for a speed ramp test.

If I had a professional gimbal operator who could move it more smoothly without wind problems, would that make the speed ramp look better?

Plus it was said on here that zooms look cheesy and unnatural but don't speed ramps look unnatural as well, since the footage looks obviously sped up, at least to me it does.

Brian Drysdale · January 27th, 2019, 05:23 AM

Wind and lack of skill will work against you. It has to be fast, but smooth.

Crash zooms need to be either part of a cutting rhythm combined with fast moving action or a punch effect.

Zooms don't need to be cheesy, they can be very effective,

Ryan Elder · January 27th, 2019, 11:55 AM

Okay thanks. It was said before that speed ramps are used in action movies, what are some that have them so I can see how they are done right?

Also, if I were to zoom it instead, I would cut it with movement like I've seen in other movies...

And if I need a lens that has a focus ring that is a mechanical one, and not a fly by wire, are there any lenses that have mechanical rings that go up to 300mm that I could get for no more than say 550 USD? I asked at the store for any DSLR lenses that do that but they were not sure cause it was an unusual request. But are there any?

Brian Drysdale · January 27th, 2019, 12:32 PM

What size sensor are you using and what is the wide end focal length required for your shot?

January 26th, 2019, 12:36 PM	#76
Brian Drysdale Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Belfast, UK Posts: 6,143	Re: Is it possible to pull focus on a lens while crash zooming? If the actors are moving slowly or not at all during the speed ramp section of the shot, you won't get comedy type movement in their actions,

January 26th, 2019, 01:14 PM	#77
Ryan Elder also known as Ryan Wray Join Date: Nov 2017 Location: Saskatoon, Canada Posts: 2,880	Re: Is it possible to pull focus on a lens while crash zooming? Okay thanks, I'm just worried that the movements are going to look unrealistic if they are too slow or too still. However, if I am going to speed ramp it, should I use timewarp to add additional motion blur to the frames, since there would naturally be more motion blur if moving the camera really fast? Also it was said that the zooms are regarded as cheesy, but the recommendation instead was to do speed it up with heavy post VFX manipulation. Wouldn't VFX also run the risk of looking cheesy, since it's VFX and not captured naturally in camera?

January 26th, 2019, 04:31 PM	#78
Josh Bass Slash Rules! Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Houston, Texas Posts: 5,472	Re: Is it possible to pull focus on a lens while crash zooming? At this point I would start doing tests of all the ideas you have of different ways to do it. Rope family or friends in for an hour or whatever it takes, find a suitable stand in location, something where you could block the actors the way you imagine they would be on the real shoot day, and record tests where you try the gimabl thing, try the speed up thing, try the speed up thing with them moving normally and without moving at all, borrow the right kind of lens or rent it for the test day, basically every variation of each of the many ideas tossed around here. I think thats the only way to know if x will look to cheesy/stupid. __________________ The Bass' camerawork The Bass on IMDB

January 26th, 2019, 04:40 PM	#79
Brian Drysdale Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Belfast, UK Posts: 6,143	Re: Is it possible to pull focus on a lens while crash zooming? Test. test, test is the way to go. Speed ramps have been used on quite a few films. Here's an example that has both slow and a fast speed ramp. Usually they're used for slow motion, so doing the reverse, by going faster, is different. Fast Forward Speed Ramp Effect - Adobe Premiere Pro Tutorial - YouTube Lying and cheating is all part of filmmaking.

January 26th, 2019, 04:59 PM	#80
Ryan Elder also known as Ryan Wray Join Date: Nov 2017 Location: Saskatoon, Canada Posts: 2,880	Re: Is it possible to pull focus on a lens while crash zooming? Okay thanks. It's just that when speed ramps were done before, the directors intended for the actors to look like they were moving faster, where as I am not, so I didn't think it would work for mine. But I can try it. If I were able to get my hands on a parfocal lens do you still think that a speed ramped gimbal move for the shot, would look better than a crash zoom? I mean it was said before that crash zooms do not look cinematic cause they are done often in documentary TV shows. But fast speed ramps are also done in documentary TV shows, so wouldn't also look TV-ish, as a result?

January 26th, 2019, 05:42 PM	#81
Brian Drysdale Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Belfast, UK Posts: 6,143	Re: Is it possible to pull focus on a lens while crash zooming? Speed ramps are used in action films. Doing a test is the best way to find out. No one here knows the build up or what happens afterwards, so any decision up to you. However, unless whole crash zoom shot is quick and doesn't linger I would tend not to use it.

January 26th, 2019, 06:13 PM	#82
Ryan Elder also known as Ryan Wray Join Date: Nov 2017 Location: Saskatoon, Canada Posts: 2,880	Re: Is it possible to pull focus on a lens while crash zooming? Okay thanks. I should watch more action films :). Well I did a test here. One advantage over the speed ramp compared to my zoom lens is that I can cover a lot more ground. Here are two speed ramp tests I did with some footage where I ran with a gimbal. The second speed ramp, I added additional motion blur to it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8yOA...ature=youtu.be Do these speed ramps look like I did it properly, and does the added motion blur help? Last edited by Ryan Elder; January 26th, 2019 at 07:04 PM.

January 26th, 2019, 07:04 PM	#84
Ryan Elder also known as Ryan Wray Join Date: Nov 2017 Location: Saskatoon, Canada Posts: 2,880	Re: Is it possible to pull focus on a lens while crash zooming? Okay thanks I see what you mean. Well I could do the speed ramp way if it means saving on trying to rent such a lens. I mean it was said that crash zooms look cheesy so if the speed ramp way is better than I could do that if it will work. What about the speed ramp, did it look better than a crash zoom possibly? Last edited by Ryan Elder; January 26th, 2019 at 10:29 PM.

January 27th, 2019, 01:40 AM	#85
Josh Bass Slash Rules! Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Houston, Texas Posts: 5,472	Re: Is it possible to pull focus on a lens while crash zooming? For me (remember this is only guy's opinion) the answer would be no. When it speeds up the composition goes completely to hell. If that trash can was your subject you would want it to stay fairly centered during the fast part and it does everything but. Plus your planned move, that we've been discussing for 6 pages, is the opposite of that anyway, right? start close, quickly go wide? Anyway, the idea was for the move to look fairly smooth and not janky...that test definitely does not. __________________ The Bass' camerawork The Bass on IMDB

January 27th, 2019, 03:18 AM	#86
Brian Drysdale Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Belfast, UK Posts: 6,143	Re: Is it possible to pull focus on a lens while crash zooming? I suspect you don't have the resources to have the camera steady enough for a good fast speed ramp. When making films sometimes you (more than you'd want) have to bite the bullet and spend money to create what you want.

January 27th, 2019, 03:46 AM	#87
Ryan Elder also known as Ryan Wray Join Date: Nov 2017 Location: Saskatoon, Canada Posts: 2,880	Re: Is it possible to pull focus on a lens while crash zooming? Okay thanks. Well normally someone else operates the gimbal where as for this test, I just borrowed it from a film school and ran as fast as I could down the street. However the wind kept turning it and keeping it from having a dead on frontal POV. But again, in the past I have gotten a separate gimbal operator with more experience, where as this was just a practice test I did myself to see how it would look speed ramped. I would get a gimbal operator to do it for the actual movie when we shoot it, it's just I don't know any would be interested in operating the gimbal for me, for a day, just for a speed ramp test. If I had a professional gimbal operator who could move it more smoothly without wind problems, would that make the speed ramp look better? Plus it was said on here that zooms look cheesy and unnatural but don't speed ramps look unnatural as well, since the footage looks obviously sped up, at least to me it does.

January 27th, 2019, 05:23 AM	#88
Brian Drysdale Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Belfast, UK Posts: 6,143	Re: Is it possible to pull focus on a lens while crash zooming? Wind and lack of skill will work against you. It has to be fast, but smooth. Crash zooms need to be either part of a cutting rhythm combined with fast moving action or a punch effect. Tarantino // Crash-Zoom on Vimeo Zooms don't need to be cheesy, they can be very effective, The Kubrick Zoom - YouTube

January 27th, 2019, 11:55 AM	#89
Ryan Elder also known as Ryan Wray Join Date: Nov 2017 Location: Saskatoon, Canada Posts: 2,880	Re: Is it possible to pull focus on a lens while crash zooming? Okay thanks. It was said before that speed ramps are used in action movies, what are some that have them so I can see how they are done right? Also, if I were to zoom it instead, I would cut it with movement like I've seen in other movies... And if I need a lens that has a focus ring that is a mechanical one, and not a fly by wire, are there any lenses that have mechanical rings that go up to 300mm that I could get for no more than say 550 USD? I asked at the store for any DSLR lenses that do that but they were not sure cause it was an unusual request. But are there any?

January 27th, 2019, 12:32 PM	#90
Brian Drysdale Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Belfast, UK Posts: 6,143	Re: Is it possible to pull focus on a lens while crash zooming? What size sensor are you using and what is the wide end focal length required for your shot?