Why do a lot of filmmakers seem to hate deep focus cinematography?

Ryan Elder · November 18th, 2019, 02:58 PM

Well I guess I am cautious of going outside the box, cause when I do, it hasn't turned out well. Even with that script, I want to do, people said it was unconventional and I should direct something more mainstream instead for my career, so I guess I feel pressured not to go outside the box therefore.

Brian Drysdale · November 18th, 2019, 04:05 PM

Either you believe in the script or you don't. Time needs to be spent writing it and rewriting it, you can easily spend a year doing this on a feature film, quite a few scripts take longer, some take years If you have a script editor/doctor any flaws can be worked out, but you do need to have the confidence to take on board what is being said and making it your own. You need to sense that the suggested change required may not directly what's they say, but some missing element is required as a set up. The good ones don't give direct suggestions, they ask questions.

I wouldn't confuse crossing the line or shaky crane shot, with thinking outside the box, that's not a mechanical thing.

Ryan Elder · November 18th, 2019, 04:11 PM

Yeah that'st true. I've rewritten the script over the years, and kept applying changes and suggestions from people. But still people are not interested in doing it. I believe in the script, just got to persuade others to be in the rewrites.

Brian Drysdale · November 18th, 2019, 04:50 PM

Lack of interest in a script is more common than people wanting to get involved in a project. The person in charge of a big script development agency in the UK said that out of 200 well written, professional feature film scripts only one had what it takes to go all the way.

Ryan Elder · November 18th, 2019, 06:28 PM

Yep that makes sense. I'll keep plugging away it.

Brian Drysdale · November 19th, 2019, 01:48 AM

Get a professional script reader's report, they;re basic, but not hugely expensive, just be aware that they can be brutal affairs. However, they can be better than what friends tell you. For example, Euroscript runs a barometer service http://www.euroscript.co.uk/feedback-services.html , but you can find others online.

Beware thar all reports are subjective (they can vary from reader to reader), but they are good indicators

Paul R Johnson · November 19th, 2019, 06:25 AM

My Director this week has taken numerous scenes and rewritten almost every line in some, because he couldn't make the written words work with real people - perhaps they worked with the writer's imagination of the casting, but with the real people it was like they were speaking French - just sounded wrong. It's made a huge improvement and as it's better, the writer is actually happy, when hardly any line is left untouched.

Just how it is. The Director just stepped up, and did it. No asking "is it possible" or "could we consider..." He just said this is wrong and sorted it. Wide shoulders. Cast and crew all thought the same - much better. Only a stupid production company would put it back!

Ryan Elder · November 19th, 2019, 09:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brian Drysdale

Get a professional script reader's report, they;re basic, but not hugely expensive, just be aware that they can be brutal affairs. However, they can be better than what friends tell you. For example, Euroscript runs a barometer service FEEDBACK SERVICES - Euroscript , but you can find others online.

Beware thar all reports are subjective (they can vary from reader to reader), but they are good indicators

Okay thanks, I already did that by having other pro writers read it on sites. Opinions were very mixed. I can try this site too, after making some changes. Thanks! I think the biggest problem with the script, is that I find it difficult to create suspension of disbelief for readers, and need to work on that.

As for dialogue, I agree it's best to change the dialogue, once the actors are casted. I did that with some of my past projects, and the dialogue sounded better. One director I worked under, his scripts have very poetic dialogue, and the actors just can't recite it the way he wants in my opinion, but he still keeps the dialogue as is, and is not very open to changing it.

Brian Drysdale · November 19th, 2019, 10:47 AM

All fiction films are about the suspension of disbelief. You usually need to add a bit more narrative detail to the sales script than you would in the shooting script, they are different animals. Opinions in script reports can vary.

Paul R Johnson · November 19th, 2019, 11:35 AM

Going back to this topic title, I had to smile a bit when yesterday I had a two camera crew in from the BBC here and their complaint was that they WANTED deep focus and couldn't get it, so I suspect maybe, just maybe, this quest for deep focus is only in a small subset of cinematographer and video people.

Pete Cofrancesco · November 19th, 2019, 02:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul R Johnson

Going back to this topic title, I had to smile a bit when yesterday I had a two camera crew in from the BBC here and their complaint was that they WANTED deep focus and couldn't get it, so I suspect maybe, just maybe, this quest for deep focus is only in a small subset of cinematographer and video people.

Funny because we’re always struggling to get shallow focus but getting deep focus has its own set of challenges.

Ryan Elder · November 19th, 2019, 02:17 PM

Sure I can try adding more narrative details to suspend disbelief, if that would help. One thing is, some readers had trouble being able to tell what certain characters were thinking, since generally, you are only allowed to write what the viewer would see. But I can still write some thoughts.

As for shallow vs. deep depth of field, I could go for shallow if it's less challenging for a DP, as long as the audience doesn't mind rack focusing between multiple characters, in wide shots.

Brian Drysdale · November 19th, 2019, 02:59 PM

You don't put character's thoughts in a film script, novels do that. You have to have subtext, character expressions and body language and your use of words to reveal what they're thinking. E.G. She throws him an angry look.

There are books, Linda Seger's "Making a good script great" might be worth reading for this.

Talk to your DP about shallow vs. deep depth of field.

Ryan Elder · November 19th, 2019, 03:28 PM

Oh okay thanks. But even if you describe anger, or fear in looks, the reader still wonders some things about what is going on inside their heads still.

I will check out that book, thanks!

Brian Drysdale · November 19th, 2019, 05:05 PM

You can't show their thoughts in a film like you can in a novel, They're different mediums.

You have use the 93% that isn't the dialogue text and indicate that in your script, you can't see or hear on screen what's going on inside their heads unless you plan to use voice over. Sometimes you can indicate the subtext for the actor, but some actors don't like that.

You can put in things like "He stares out the stranger" or put "Angry" in the dialogue.

Are these readers script readers or your friends?

November 18th, 2019, 02:58 PM	#241
Ryan Elder also known as Ryan Wray Join Date: Nov 2017 Location: Saskatoon, Canada Posts: 2,880	Re: Why do a lot of filmmakers seem to hate deep focus cinematography? Well I guess I am cautious of going outside the box, cause when I do, it hasn't turned out well. Even with that script, I want to do, people said it was unconventional and I should direct something more mainstream instead for my career, so I guess I feel pressured not to go outside the box therefore.

November 18th, 2019, 04:05 PM	#242
Brian Drysdale Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Belfast, UK Posts: 6,143	Re: Why do a lot of filmmakers seem to hate deep focus cinematography? Either you believe in the script or you don't. Time needs to be spent writing it and rewriting it, you can easily spend a year doing this on a feature film, quite a few scripts take longer, some take years If you have a script editor/doctor any flaws can be worked out, but you do need to have the confidence to take on board what is being said and making it your own. You need to sense that the suggested change required may not directly what's they say, but some missing element is required as a set up. The good ones don't give direct suggestions, they ask questions. I wouldn't confuse crossing the line or shaky crane shot, with thinking outside the box, that's not a mechanical thing.

November 18th, 2019, 04:11 PM	#243
Ryan Elder also known as Ryan Wray Join Date: Nov 2017 Location: Saskatoon, Canada Posts: 2,880	Re: Why do a lot of filmmakers seem to hate deep focus cinematography? Yeah that'st true. I've rewritten the script over the years, and kept applying changes and suggestions from people. But still people are not interested in doing it. I believe in the script, just got to persuade others to be in the rewrites.

November 18th, 2019, 04:50 PM	#244
Brian Drysdale Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Belfast, UK Posts: 6,143	Re: Why do a lot of filmmakers seem to hate deep focus cinematography? Lack of interest in a script is more common than people wanting to get involved in a project. The person in charge of a big script development agency in the UK said that out of 200 well written, professional feature film scripts only one had what it takes to go all the way.

November 18th, 2019, 06:28 PM	#245
Ryan Elder also known as Ryan Wray Join Date: Nov 2017 Location: Saskatoon, Canada Posts: 2,880	Re: Why do a lot of filmmakers seem to hate deep focus cinematography? Yep that makes sense. I'll keep plugging away it.

November 19th, 2019, 01:48 AM	#246
Brian Drysdale Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Belfast, UK Posts: 6,143	Re: Why do a lot of filmmakers seem to hate deep focus cinematography? Get a professional script reader's report, they;re basic, but not hugely expensive, just be aware that they can be brutal affairs. However, they can be better than what friends tell you. For example, Euroscript runs a barometer service http://www.euroscript.co.uk/feedback-services.html , but you can find others online. Beware thar all reports are subjective (they can vary from reader to reader), but they are good indicators

November 19th, 2019, 06:25 AM	#247
Paul R Johnson Inner Circle Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Lowestoft - UK Posts: 4,016	Re: Why do a lot of filmmakers seem to hate deep focus cinematography? My Director this week has taken numerous scenes and rewritten almost every line in some, because he couldn't make the written words work with real people - perhaps they worked with the writer's imagination of the casting, but with the real people it was like they were speaking French - just sounded wrong. It's made a huge improvement and as it's better, the writer is actually happy, when hardly any line is left untouched. Just how it is. The Director just stepped up, and did it. No asking "is it possible" or "could we consider..." He just said this is wrong and sorted it. Wide shoulders. Cast and crew all thought the same - much better. Only a stupid production company would put it back!

November 19th, 2019, 10:47 AM	#249
Brian Drysdale Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Belfast, UK Posts: 6,143	Re: Why do a lot of filmmakers seem to hate deep focus cinematography? All fiction films are about the suspension of disbelief. You usually need to add a bit more narrative detail to the sales script than you would in the shooting script, they are different animals. Opinions in script reports can vary.

November 19th, 2019, 11:35 AM	#250
Paul R Johnson Inner Circle Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Lowestoft - UK Posts: 4,016	Re: Why do a lot of filmmakers seem to hate deep focus cinematography? Going back to this topic title, I had to smile a bit when yesterday I had a two camera crew in from the BBC here and their complaint was that they WANTED deep focus and couldn't get it, so I suspect maybe, just maybe, this quest for deep focus is only in a small subset of cinematographer and video people.

November 19th, 2019, 02:17 PM	#252
Ryan Elder also known as Ryan Wray Join Date: Nov 2017 Location: Saskatoon, Canada Posts: 2,880	Re: Why do a lot of filmmakers seem to hate deep focus cinematography? Sure I can try adding more narrative details to suspend disbelief, if that would help. One thing is, some readers had trouble being able to tell what certain characters were thinking, since generally, you are only allowed to write what the viewer would see. But I can still write some thoughts. As for shallow vs. deep depth of field, I could go for shallow if it's less challenging for a DP, as long as the audience doesn't mind rack focusing between multiple characters, in wide shots.

November 19th, 2019, 02:59 PM	#253
Brian Drysdale Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Belfast, UK Posts: 6,143	Re: Why do a lot of filmmakers seem to hate deep focus cinematography? You don't put character's thoughts in a film script, novels do that. You have to have subtext, character expressions and body language and your use of words to reveal what they're thinking. E.G. She throws him an angry look. There are books, Linda Seger's "Making a good script great" might be worth reading for this. Talk to your DP about shallow vs. deep depth of field.

November 19th, 2019, 03:28 PM	#254
Ryan Elder also known as Ryan Wray Join Date: Nov 2017 Location: Saskatoon, Canada Posts: 2,880	Re: Why do a lot of filmmakers seem to hate deep focus cinematography? Oh okay thanks. But even if you describe anger, or fear in looks, the reader still wonders some things about what is going on inside their heads still. I will check out that book, thanks!

November 19th, 2019, 05:05 PM	#255
Brian Drysdale Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Belfast, UK Posts: 6,143	Re: Why do a lot of filmmakers seem to hate deep focus cinematography? You can't show their thoughts in a film like you can in a novel, They're different mediums. You have use the 93% that isn't the dialogue text and indicate that in your script, you can't see or hear on screen what's going on inside their heads unless you plan to use voice over. Sometimes you can indicate the subtext for the actor, but some actors don't like that. You can put in things like "He stares out the stranger" or put "Angry" in the dialogue. Are these readers script readers or your friends?