How should I handle this co-director job?

Brian Drysdale · December 22nd, 2019, 05:32 PM

You can ask to have your credit removed or to be called "Alan Smithee” in the credits. This was the DGA credit if a director wants to disown a film, it was retired in 2000, but is still used in TV etc.

BTW The director dealing with the actors will want to block their action.

Ryan Elder · December 22nd, 2019, 05:52 PM

Oh okay thanks. I thought about that too, but wasn't sure who should block the action, since I am coming up with the storyboards and shots.

Brian Drysdale · December 23rd, 2019, 01:56 AM

That sounds more like storyboard artist than co director, but since there is no job description for a co-director it can cover a number of things and will vary from film to film.

Just bear in mind that the DP will also have input during the shoot, so the final piece may not be precisely the same as the storyboard. This can change due to a number if factors, including coming up with something better on the day.

Ryan Elder · December 23rd, 2019, 10:46 AM

Oh ok thanks. But i still have to tell the storyboard artist what to storyboard, don't I? I also don't like changing the storyboards on the shoot day cause in past experience, the new shots weren't as well thought out, cause i got too excited and came up with them spur the moment, rather than going with the original better thought out plan.

Paul R Johnson · December 23rd, 2019, 11:30 AM

You've got fixated again on titles. In your scale of production, titles are often totally meaningless - far more important is what the individuals bring to the story. The script/screenplay is what really matters, and once read, the Director decides how too shoot it - commissioning professionally produced storyboards, or rough sketches on a pad with stick people. The problem is simply deciding how best to shoot it - and there it sounds like your co-director has it organised. You're wanting him to fit into your carefully thought through set of little boxes. The best thing about being director is simply saying - no, I don't like that, we'll dob it this way.

If you push this, one of you will win, the other lose. If you lose, everyone will follow the winner from then on. You will be clearly demoted to 'assistant to.." and lose the credibility you perhaps have now - although yet again it sounds like a repeat of past problems. You want order, planning, absolute decisions that can then be followed, but he sounds like a shoot from the hip kind of Director.

Josh Bass · December 23rd, 2019, 12:23 PM

Yeah. Ryan, here’s how I think this is going to go. Right now you think have certain responsibilities; I think you will end up not even having those. You already said the agreement you came to previously isnt being respected. I foresee your boards and shot ideas etc. being overridden to the point where you really won’t have a creative hand in this project at all. You can let this happen, and go along for the ride and hope to learn things from it you can take to future projects, fight it and end up with the same result with the added bonus of humiliation, or have a real ultimatum kind of talk with this other director and bow out completely if it doesnt go your way.

Perhaps I am wrong about all of this but from what youve said, I dont think so.

Ryan Elder · December 23rd, 2019, 12:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul R Johnson

You've got fixated again on titles. In your scale of production, titles are often totally meaningless - far more important is what the individuals bring to the story. The script/screenplay is what really matters, and once read, the Director decides how too shoot it - commissioning professionally produced storyboards, or rough sketches on a pad with stick people. The problem is simply deciding how best to shoot it - and there it sounds like your co-director has it organised. You're wanting him to fit into your carefully thought through set of little boxes. The best thing about being director is simply saying - no, I don't like that, we'll dob it this way.

If you push this, one of you will win, the other lose. If you lose, everyone will follow the winner from then on. You will be clearly demoted to 'assistant to.." and lose the credibility you perhaps have now - although yet again it sounds like a repeat of past problems. You want order, planning, absolute decisions that can then be followed, but he sounds like a shoot from the hip kind of Director.

Oh well what makes him sound like a shoot from the hip director compared to me. Doesn't he, like me, plan everything out as well, at least so far?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Josh Bass

Yeah. Ryan, here’s how I think this is going to go. Right now you think have certain responsibilities; I think you will end up not even having those. You already said the agreement you came to previously isnt being respected. I foresee your boards and shot ideas etc. being overridden to the point where you really won’t have a creative hand in this project at all. You can let this happen, and go along for the ride and hope to learn things from it you can take to future projects, fight it and end up with the same result with the added bonus of humiliation, or have a real ultimatum kind of talk with this other director and bow out completely if it doesnt go your way.

Perhaps I am wrong about all of this but from what youve said, I dont think so.

Well I could go along for the ride and maybe it will turn out good, and I get a co-director credit anyway, and maybe that's good, as pointed out before. But of course I don't want any humiliation either.

Brian Drysdale · December 23rd, 2019, 01:19 PM

It really depends on what happens on the set, some directors just use storyboards as the starting point or a fall back in case they can't come up with anything better on the day.

I've had storyboards that were shown to me, which didn't bear any relationship to the final scene as we shot it

You shouldn't blindly follow the storyboard. because you can get flaws like crossing the line in them, which can catch you out.

Ryan Elder · December 23rd, 2019, 02:10 PM

Oh okay, I just so far have always thought that the boards had the best ideas on cause I had more time to think of them. As for crossing the line, this always happened when I deviated from the boards, cause the boards, followed the 180 degree rule. Then I would come up with new ideas, on set, and the line then gets crossed accidentally.

But I can try to keep that in mind more if coming up with new ideas on set.

Brian Drysdale · December 23rd, 2019, 03:06 PM

Noting which way people are facing might assist you with not crossing the line.

Ryan Elder · December 23rd, 2019, 04:25 PM

Yep for sure thanks. On the subject, this script has quite a bit of fight scenes in, and you see in movies that crossing the line happens more in fights, but are there guidelines there of when to cross the line, or only when it feels right?

Brian Drysdale · December 23rd, 2019, 04:40 PM

Fight scenes are usually choreographed, so if you regard them the same as dialogue, it means that blows will appear to connect like dialogue. Unless there are multiple characters in a complex fight, with the action switching around, there's no reason to cross the line.

Since you've already got an old thread on crossing the line, there's no reason to go over old ground.

Ryan Elder · December 23rd, 2019, 04:55 PM

Okay thanks, it's just with fight scenes they are different cause they cross the line more though, and with different rules it seems, compared to dialogue. One person told me the reason why 24 gets away with breaking it, is because the action is always going in the same direction, if that is the key.

Brian Drysdale · December 23rd, 2019, 05:44 PM

No they don't, you want the fight's geography to hold together so that the action makes sense. Fight scenes are often shot with multiple cameras and as the action moves around, where the line lies can change, so you may find that they use a camera which intended for one part of the scene is actually edited into another part.

There's also the mistake aspect of crossing the line, which also happens. If you've noticed them crossing the line perhaps it was a mistake or them not having any other option.

What was discussed in the other thread still holds. Unless you know how to switch the direction of the line, don't do it.

Ryan Elder · December 23rd, 2019, 06:30 PM

Okay thanks, it's just the last time I shot a fight scene, I found it difficult to stay on the line because of the location, and sometimes the shape of the location seems to dictate it. But there other movies that do it during action like Total Recall (1990), The Bourne movies, Terminator 2, or the TV show 24, so I can't figure out what they are doing differently to warrant it...

But let's say I keep following the rule. One time during a fight scene in a previous project, I kept knocking out all the action shots on the storyboards, but one of them had I had to cross the line on cause of how the room was shaped. I was told I shouldn't hae crossed the line there later. So should I rehearse every shot in the locations, to see if every one of them is possible with the 180 rule, then if not, back to the drawing back on each one as we go?

December 22nd, 2019, 05:32 PM	#16
Brian Drysdale Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Belfast, UK Posts: 6,143	Re: How should I handle this co-director job? You can ask to have your credit removed or to be called "Alan Smithee” in the credits. This was the DGA credit if a director wants to disown a film, it was retired in 2000, but is still used in TV etc. BTW The director dealing with the actors will want to block their action.

December 22nd, 2019, 05:52 PM	#17
Ryan Elder also known as Ryan Wray Join Date: Nov 2017 Location: Saskatoon, Canada Posts: 2,880	Re: How should I handle this co-director job? Oh okay thanks. I thought about that too, but wasn't sure who should block the action, since I am coming up with the storyboards and shots.

December 23rd, 2019, 01:56 AM	#18
Brian Drysdale Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Belfast, UK Posts: 6,143	Re: How should I handle this co-director job? That sounds more like storyboard artist than co director, but since there is no job description for a co-director it can cover a number of things and will vary from film to film. Just bear in mind that the DP will also have input during the shoot, so the final piece may not be precisely the same as the storyboard. This can change due to a number if factors, including coming up with something better on the day.

December 23rd, 2019, 10:46 AM	#19
Ryan Elder also known as Ryan Wray Join Date: Nov 2017 Location: Saskatoon, Canada Posts: 2,880	Re: How should I handle this co-director job? Oh ok thanks. But i still have to tell the storyboard artist what to storyboard, don't I? I also don't like changing the storyboards on the shoot day cause in past experience, the new shots weren't as well thought out, cause i got too excited and came up with them spur the moment, rather than going with the original better thought out plan.

December 23rd, 2019, 11:30 AM	#20
Paul R Johnson Inner Circle Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Lowestoft - UK Posts: 4,016	Re: How should I handle this co-director job? You've got fixated again on titles. In your scale of production, titles are often totally meaningless - far more important is what the individuals bring to the story. The script/screenplay is what really matters, and once read, the Director decides how too shoot it - commissioning professionally produced storyboards, or rough sketches on a pad with stick people. The problem is simply deciding how best to shoot it - and there it sounds like your co-director has it organised. You're wanting him to fit into your carefully thought through set of little boxes. The best thing about being director is simply saying - no, I don't like that, we'll dob it this way. If you push this, one of you will win, the other lose. If you lose, everyone will follow the winner from then on. You will be clearly demoted to 'assistant to.." and lose the credibility you perhaps have now - although yet again it sounds like a repeat of past problems. You want order, planning, absolute decisions that can then be followed, but he sounds like a shoot from the hip kind of Director.

December 23rd, 2019, 12:23 PM	#21
Josh Bass Slash Rules! Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Houston, Texas Posts: 5,472	Re: How should I handle this co-director job? Yeah. Ryan, here’s how I think this is going to go. Right now you think have certain responsibilities; I think you will end up not even having those. You already said the agreement you came to previously isnt being respected. I foresee your boards and shot ideas etc. being overridden to the point where you really won’t have a creative hand in this project at all. You can let this happen, and go along for the ride and hope to learn things from it you can take to future projects, fight it and end up with the same result with the added bonus of humiliation, or have a real ultimatum kind of talk with this other director and bow out completely if it doesnt go your way. Perhaps I am wrong about all of this but from what youve said, I dont think so. __________________ The Bass' camerawork The Bass on IMDB

December 23rd, 2019, 01:19 PM	#23
Brian Drysdale Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Belfast, UK Posts: 6,143	Re: How should I handle this co-director job? It really depends on what happens on the set, some directors just use storyboards as the starting point or a fall back in case they can't come up with anything better on the day. I've had storyboards that were shown to me, which didn't bear any relationship to the final scene as we shot it You shouldn't blindly follow the storyboard. because you can get flaws like crossing the line in them, which can catch you out.

December 23rd, 2019, 02:10 PM	#24
Ryan Elder also known as Ryan Wray Join Date: Nov 2017 Location: Saskatoon, Canada Posts: 2,880	Re: How should I handle this co-director job? Oh okay, I just so far have always thought that the boards had the best ideas on cause I had more time to think of them. As for crossing the line, this always happened when I deviated from the boards, cause the boards, followed the 180 degree rule. Then I would come up with new ideas, on set, and the line then gets crossed accidentally. But I can try to keep that in mind more if coming up with new ideas on set.

December 23rd, 2019, 03:06 PM	#25
Brian Drysdale Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Belfast, UK Posts: 6,143	Re: How should I handle this co-director job? Noting which way people are facing might assist you with not crossing the line.

December 23rd, 2019, 04:25 PM	#26
Ryan Elder also known as Ryan Wray Join Date: Nov 2017 Location: Saskatoon, Canada Posts: 2,880	Re: How should I handle this co-director job? Yep for sure thanks. On the subject, this script has quite a bit of fight scenes in, and you see in movies that crossing the line happens more in fights, but are there guidelines there of when to cross the line, or only when it feels right?

December 23rd, 2019, 04:40 PM	#27
Brian Drysdale Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Belfast, UK Posts: 6,143	Re: How should I handle this co-director job? Fight scenes are usually choreographed, so if you regard them the same as dialogue, it means that blows will appear to connect like dialogue. Unless there are multiple characters in a complex fight, with the action switching around, there's no reason to cross the line. Since you've already got an old thread on crossing the line, there's no reason to go over old ground.

December 23rd, 2019, 04:55 PM	#28
Ryan Elder also known as Ryan Wray Join Date: Nov 2017 Location: Saskatoon, Canada Posts: 2,880	Re: How should I handle this co-director job? Okay thanks, it's just with fight scenes they are different cause they cross the line more though, and with different rules it seems, compared to dialogue. One person told me the reason why 24 gets away with breaking it, is because the action is always going in the same direction, if that is the key. Last edited by Ryan Elder; December 23rd, 2019 at 06:31 PM.

December 23rd, 2019, 05:44 PM	#29
Brian Drysdale Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Belfast, UK Posts: 6,143	Re: How should I handle this co-director job? No they don't, you want the fight's geography to hold together so that the action makes sense. Fight scenes are often shot with multiple cameras and as the action moves around, where the line lies can change, so you may find that they use a camera which intended for one part of the scene is actually edited into another part. There's also the mistake aspect of crossing the line, which also happens. If you've noticed them crossing the line perhaps it was a mistake or them not having any other option. What was discussed in the other thread still holds. Unless you know how to switch the direction of the line, don't do it.

December 23rd, 2019, 06:30 PM	#30
Ryan Elder also known as Ryan Wray Join Date: Nov 2017 Location: Saskatoon, Canada Posts: 2,880	Re: How should I handle this co-director job? Okay thanks, it's just the last time I shot a fight scene, I found it difficult to stay on the line because of the location, and sometimes the shape of the location seems to dictate it. But there other movies that do it during action like Total Recall (1990), The Bourne movies, Terminator 2, or the TV show 24, so I can't figure out what they are doing differently to warrant it... But let's say I keep following the rule. One time during a fight scene in a previous project, I kept knocking out all the action shots on the storyboards, but one of them had I had to cross the line on cause of how the room was shaped. I was told I shouldn't hae crossed the line there later. So should I rehearse every shot in the locations, to see if every one of them is possible with the 180 rule, then if not, back to the drawing back on each one as we go?