At what point do you decide to reveal a twist in a screenplay?

Brian Drysdale · March 15th, 2020, 02:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ryan Elder

Well I feel that I know the characters and know what they would do. But at the same time, some people say the character should do this instead in order to blend with the rest of the plot, so should I therefore try to change the character then to apply people's suggestions? I am trying to take people's advice and change the character's decisions based on what they say would be best, but how do I do that without changing the characters though?

The character's needs will drive the plot, you may have to change the plot if these needs take things in a different direction. This is what happens when writers hear the characters speaking to them, it's not the dialogue, it's the action.

Horizontal thinking on your part, not vertical thinking is what it's about.

Ryan Elder · March 15th, 2020, 02:53 PM

I was told this as well by a couple of readers and they said that the plot holds together just as fine as other movies, and that the reason why maybe people pick it apart is because they are offended by the premise, which causes them to pick things apart, more compared to a movie with a premise that wouldn't be to them, more.

However, it's a crime thriller and when criminals go out to commit crimes, of course people are going to find such immoral acts offensive. They are crimes. Do I have to write a screenplay about villains committing crimes, that the general public can get behind and support? Since when is a villain in a movie not allowed to commit grave sins that people do not approve of anymore? I mean there are movies out there where the villains commit bad crimes as well, so I didn't think I was breaking any rules there.

Ryan Elder · March 15th, 2020, 04:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brian Drysdale

The character's needs will drive the plot, you may have to change the plot if these needs take things in a different direction. This is what happens when writers hear the characters speaking to them, it's not the dialogue, it's the action.

Horizontal thinking on your part, not vertical thinking is what it's about.

Oh okay, but is it ever the other way around, that if you want to build towards the ending you think is best, you need to change the character to fit certain plot points therefore, in order to reach that end? Especially if you want to get certain characters to be at the same place, at the same time for the ending to happen?

Brian Drysdale · March 15th, 2020, 05:34 PM

Good villains don't do bad things, they are for the good in how they view the world. Lee Marvin said he never played a baddie,

The feedback is for you to interpret, as has been said before, you will always get differing script reports. Not everyone is going to like Henry: Portrait of a Serial Killer, but it's a good film, if somewhat dark However, I suspect they understood their character better than you do.

Ryan Elder · March 15th, 2020, 05:49 PM

Yeah for sure, I meant that villains do bad things from the perspective of the audience. So I thought that the audience will view it as a bad thing, and that that's normal, like other villains doing bad things in fiction.

Brian Drysdale · March 16th, 2020, 01:48 AM

That may be so, but if you're writing the character it's from their perspective. Even the most evil people in history thought they were doing the right thing, as do their supporters. .

Ryan Elder · March 16th, 2020, 02:19 AM

Oh yes for sure, the villains think they are doing the right thing. But for other people to think the premise is too offensive because of what the villains do just seems strange to me because of course the villains are going to do things, that the audience will perceive is bad.

That's the point of such a thriller, is that bad, dangerous people are on the loose wreaking havoc, and how will they be stopped. So I just find it odd that people are offended by villains doing bad things, when that's what villains do.

Brian Drysdale · March 16th, 2020, 02:45 AM

If you enter into a taboo subject you will find strong reactions. Female serial killers or female rapists will tend to fall into that area. Also, your potential sales market will reduce.

Ryan Elder · March 16th, 2020, 02:52 AM

Oh okay. Well I thought that if I made a movie that wasn't safe, that it may stand out in the crowd more. A lot of indie movies are not bad at all but forgotten about because the stories just didn't have subject matter in them that got you think too much about it afterward. So I thought you would probably get noticed more if you made something risky, compared to safe...

Some of the other filmmakers I worked with before liked the idea and said they wanted to help make it and be part of it and got excited, unless they were just being nice. But even if they are being nice, they are still offering to be a part of it, so is that still good?

Paul R Johnson · March 16th, 2020, 02:55 AM

Ryan. You are totally insensitive to the state of the world, and the way that people react to what they are fed by the media. In a way, you also fail to understand that the success of media products are down to reception. This can easily work big time when the product is a quality script, that retains the quality through production values, budget and marketing. Each stage is in a way, a filter. If you accept that some people will find the subject matter, even before watching it, distasteful, then that's a big chunk of audience gone. Of those that then do investigate and perhaps view the trailer, you will lose another chunk of available viewers. So your first viewings are with a small chunk of the market. Then you start on the reactive phase - what they think about it and what they say on social media. This is where script quality, acting, shooting style and the rest will impact.

Making a movie that doesn't score highly is very risky, and clearly every time your screenplay gets aired, people find real problems with it. Is this not enough to demonstrate that your opinion of it is skewed, probably because you wrote it. They read it, and their opinion really is vital.

Put it like this. Let's say you have a decent budget for really well known actors. Would their agents even forward it to them for reading? Be honest. Are you an amazing screenplay writer and the heavyweight actors are going to really want to lead this? Somehow, I suspect that despite your years and years of honing, it would be in the recycle bin after the first few pages. This is realistic. What you have is the classic script where too many bits in it have been revised as more and more people tell you problems. You have a product that has had too much in the way of reaction built into it.

You are a budding writer with no confidence whatsoever that what you write is perfect. You constantly tinker, and tweak it, then put it out for review. You are averaging and constantly reviewing, and at this late stage you suddenly think about revealing plot points? Surely this is a first draft or before decision.

Clearly you live on forums and search them relentlessly for comments. This is futile. One thing I learned early on - and the thing you WILL NOT acknowledge, is that we cannot all be good at everything. You want to be a one man band, and seem to hate giving things away. We convince you you don't have the ability to things, so you say you will give it to the DP. We tell you about audio, you pass that on. We tell you about direction, and you ask if you should engage a director. Can you not see that you are now asking US about scripts, which is only our specialism by being able to spot dreadful ones given to us. It doesn't mean we can write - but we sure know a lemon when we see one.

How many people do you have to ask until you find a forum who say wow Ryan, this script is excellent, and then on another, they tell you your camera and lens are brilliant, and the panning shots are a super idea and will work fine, and that your boom work will provide the editor with excellent audio. Perhaps an editing forum will let you know your ideas for editing are amazing and will work brilliantly?

Is this some kind of dream? As soon as you find this internet special place, will you actually get up and make the movie, or will we find you still hawking this pile of poo on a forum in twenty years time when you are older and still trying to make it work?

Sorry Ryan - but I really have to suggest that movie making really is something you clearly cannot do on your own. Years ago I suggested you did a skills audit, to produce a definitive snapshot of your abilities, to help focus your direction. You never did it. Why? Maybe because you just don't want to accept your limitations? I don't know, but what I do know is you never listen, you never learn and you never grow. You just go around in huge circles, getting nowhere and suddenly arriving back at the start.

I've looked on forums where you have posted and your readership and response rates drop off so quickly until just a bunch of people get left who have the patience to keep trying. You are down to 3 or 4 now on here, have you noticed. People read the topics and just don't want to get involved. I don't even understand some of your questions anymore - they make no sense?

Ryan Elder · March 16th, 2020, 03:03 AM

Oh okay, well I could do a safer script, I just thought if I did, it wouldn't stand out above the rest, because it doesn't have anything thought provoking in it to make it stand out above the rest.

There is one script a couple of actors I worked with before got excited about. It's a Santa Clause script and they said I should make that instead. I just don't know if I have the budget for it, since a lot of the story takes place in Santa Claus's factory and that will probably warrant a lot of set and costume design.

One friend of mine suggested that I take a really realistic approach and just shoot in a real factory and give it a realistic approach as to the type of factory environment Santa Claus would run. Factories look crummy in real life, so just embrace that crummy factory look he said, and just make it a total realistic sweat shop looking factory he said.

However, if I take that approach, would audience really care about realism when it comes to Santa Claus's factory though?

I told the actors who were excited about it, that maybe we should do a script that is cheaper and can be done on real locations, and they said to find a way to make this one instead. Should I?

Brian Drysdale · March 16th, 2020, 03:33 AM

It really depends on what you want to say about the consumerism etc around Christmas. Family Guy did a dark version of Santa's factory, however, since you seem to have a copy and paste process, perhaps you're not capable of making the imaginative leaps that hold a mirror to society. You don't seem to have any personal vision that you put into your work.

Paul R Johnson · March 16th, 2020, 03:34 AM

Who would the audience be?

Santa Claus Movie - so are we talking comedy, drama or what? AND - is this a multi-age product, the old fashioned family movie with a happy ending?

Ryan Elder · March 16th, 2020, 03:44 AM

It's more of a comedy so maybe a more realistic look to it, might add to the comedy, but it might also have the effect of people thinking it's too cheap looking as well.

As for a copy and paste process, whenever I try to do something original and make it my own, I am told it doesn't work, so I try to do what people want as a result. I could go full on original and make a movie I've never seen before, but also shot in a way I have never seen before, but worried that people might think I am trying to reinvent the wheel, but in a bad way if I do that, since I have often been told I have done things wrong before.

Brian Drysdale · March 16th, 2020, 04:10 AM

If the content in front of the camera is good with at least some original content, you don't need to come up with super clever shots and editing.

March 15th, 2020, 02:53 PM	#62
Ryan Elder also known as Ryan Wray Join Date: Nov 2017 Location: Saskatoon, Canada Posts: 2,880	Re: At what point do you decide to reveal a twist in a screenplay? I was told this as well by a couple of readers and they said that the plot holds together just as fine as other movies, and that the reason why maybe people pick it apart is because they are offended by the premise, which causes them to pick things apart, more compared to a movie with a premise that wouldn't be to them, more. However, it's a crime thriller and when criminals go out to commit crimes, of course people are going to find such immoral acts offensive. They are crimes. Do I have to write a screenplay about villains committing crimes, that the general public can get behind and support? Since when is a villain in a movie not allowed to commit grave sins that people do not approve of anymore? I mean there are movies out there where the villains commit bad crimes as well, so I didn't think I was breaking any rules there.

March 15th, 2020, 05:34 PM	#64
Brian Drysdale Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Belfast, UK Posts: 6,143	Re: At what point do you decide to reveal a twist in a screenplay? Good villains don't do bad things, they are for the good in how they view the world. Lee Marvin said he never played a baddie, The feedback is for you to interpret, as has been said before, you will always get differing script reports. Not everyone is going to like Henry: Portrait of a Serial Killer, but it's a good film, if somewhat dark However, I suspect they understood their character better than you do.

March 15th, 2020, 05:49 PM	#65
Ryan Elder also known as Ryan Wray Join Date: Nov 2017 Location: Saskatoon, Canada Posts: 2,880	Re: At what point do you decide to reveal a twist in a screenplay? Yeah for sure, I meant that villains do bad things from the perspective of the audience. So I thought that the audience will view it as a bad thing, and that that's normal, like other villains doing bad things in fiction.

March 16th, 2020, 01:48 AM	#66
Brian Drysdale Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Belfast, UK Posts: 6,143	Re: At what point do you decide to reveal a twist in a screenplay? That may be so, but if you're writing the character it's from their perspective. Even the most evil people in history thought they were doing the right thing, as do their supporters. .

March 16th, 2020, 02:19 AM	#67
Ryan Elder also known as Ryan Wray Join Date: Nov 2017 Location: Saskatoon, Canada Posts: 2,880	Re: At what point do you decide to reveal a twist in a screenplay? Oh yes for sure, the villains think they are doing the right thing. But for other people to think the premise is too offensive because of what the villains do just seems strange to me because of course the villains are going to do things, that the audience will perceive is bad. That's the point of such a thriller, is that bad, dangerous people are on the loose wreaking havoc, and how will they be stopped. So I just find it odd that people are offended by villains doing bad things, when that's what villains do.

March 16th, 2020, 02:45 AM	#68
Brian Drysdale Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Belfast, UK Posts: 6,143	Re: At what point do you decide to reveal a twist in a screenplay? If you enter into a taboo subject you will find strong reactions. Female serial killers or female rapists will tend to fall into that area. Also, your potential sales market will reduce.

March 16th, 2020, 02:52 AM	#69
Ryan Elder also known as Ryan Wray Join Date: Nov 2017 Location: Saskatoon, Canada Posts: 2,880	Re: At what point do you decide to reveal a twist in a screenplay? Oh okay. Well I thought that if I made a movie that wasn't safe, that it may stand out in the crowd more. A lot of indie movies are not bad at all but forgotten about because the stories just didn't have subject matter in them that got you think too much about it afterward. So I thought you would probably get noticed more if you made something risky, compared to safe... Some of the other filmmakers I worked with before liked the idea and said they wanted to help make it and be part of it and got excited, unless they were just being nice. But even if they are being nice, they are still offering to be a part of it, so is that still good?

March 16th, 2020, 02:55 AM	#70
Paul R Johnson Inner Circle Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Lowestoft - UK Posts: 4,015	Re: At what point do you decide to reveal a twist in a screenplay? Ryan. You are totally insensitive to the state of the world, and the way that people react to what they are fed by the media. In a way, you also fail to understand that the success of media products are down to reception. This can easily work big time when the product is a quality script, that retains the quality through production values, budget and marketing. Each stage is in a way, a filter. If you accept that some people will find the subject matter, even before watching it, distasteful, then that's a big chunk of audience gone. Of those that then do investigate and perhaps view the trailer, you will lose another chunk of available viewers. So your first viewings are with a small chunk of the market. Then you start on the reactive phase - what they think about it and what they say on social media. This is where script quality, acting, shooting style and the rest will impact. Making a movie that doesn't score highly is very risky, and clearly every time your screenplay gets aired, people find real problems with it. Is this not enough to demonstrate that your opinion of it is skewed, probably because you wrote it. They read it, and their opinion really is vital. Put it like this. Let's say you have a decent budget for really well known actors. Would their agents even forward it to them for reading? Be honest. Are you an amazing screenplay writer and the heavyweight actors are going to really want to lead this? Somehow, I suspect that despite your years and years of honing, it would be in the recycle bin after the first few pages. This is realistic. What you have is the classic script where too many bits in it have been revised as more and more people tell you problems. You have a product that has had too much in the way of reaction built into it. You are a budding writer with no confidence whatsoever that what you write is perfect. You constantly tinker, and tweak it, then put it out for review. You are averaging and constantly reviewing, and at this late stage you suddenly think about revealing plot points? Surely this is a first draft or before decision. Clearly you live on forums and search them relentlessly for comments. This is futile. One thing I learned early on - and the thing you WILL NOT acknowledge, is that we cannot all be good at everything. You want to be a one man band, and seem to hate giving things away. We convince you you don't have the ability to things, so you say you will give it to the DP. We tell you about audio, you pass that on. We tell you about direction, and you ask if you should engage a director. Can you not see that you are now asking US about scripts, which is only our specialism by being able to spot dreadful ones given to us. It doesn't mean we can write - but we sure know a lemon when we see one. How many people do you have to ask until you find a forum who say wow Ryan, this script is excellent, and then on another, they tell you your camera and lens are brilliant, and the panning shots are a super idea and will work fine, and that your boom work will provide the editor with excellent audio. Perhaps an editing forum will let you know your ideas for editing are amazing and will work brilliantly? Is this some kind of dream? As soon as you find this internet special place, will you actually get up and make the movie, or will we find you still hawking this pile of poo on a forum in twenty years time when you are older and still trying to make it work? Sorry Ryan - but I really have to suggest that movie making really is something you clearly cannot do on your own. Years ago I suggested you did a skills audit, to produce a definitive snapshot of your abilities, to help focus your direction. You never did it. Why? Maybe because you just don't want to accept your limitations? I don't know, but what I do know is you never listen, you never learn and you never grow. You just go around in huge circles, getting nowhere and suddenly arriving back at the start. I've looked on forums where you have posted and your readership and response rates drop off so quickly until just a bunch of people get left who have the patience to keep trying. You are down to 3 or 4 now on here, have you noticed. People read the topics and just don't want to get involved. I don't even understand some of your questions anymore - they make no sense?

March 16th, 2020, 03:03 AM	#71
Ryan Elder also known as Ryan Wray Join Date: Nov 2017 Location: Saskatoon, Canada Posts: 2,880	Re: At what point do you decide to reveal a twist in a screenplay? Oh okay, well I could do a safer script, I just thought if I did, it wouldn't stand out above the rest, because it doesn't have anything thought provoking in it to make it stand out above the rest. There is one script a couple of actors I worked with before got excited about. It's a Santa Clause script and they said I should make that instead. I just don't know if I have the budget for it, since a lot of the story takes place in Santa Claus's factory and that will probably warrant a lot of set and costume design. One friend of mine suggested that I take a really realistic approach and just shoot in a real factory and give it a realistic approach as to the type of factory environment Santa Claus would run. Factories look crummy in real life, so just embrace that crummy factory look he said, and just make it a total realistic sweat shop looking factory he said. However, if I take that approach, would audience really care about realism when it comes to Santa Claus's factory though? I told the actors who were excited about it, that maybe we should do a script that is cheaper and can be done on real locations, and they said to find a way to make this one instead. Should I?

March 16th, 2020, 03:33 AM	#72
Brian Drysdale Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Belfast, UK Posts: 6,143	Re: At what point do you decide to reveal a twist in a screenplay? It really depends on what you want to say about the consumerism etc around Christmas. Family Guy did a dark version of Santa's factory, however, since you seem to have a copy and paste process, perhaps you're not capable of making the imaginative leaps that hold a mirror to society. You don't seem to have any personal vision that you put into your work. Family Guy - Christmas time is killing us - YouTube

March 16th, 2020, 03:34 AM	#73
Paul R Johnson Inner Circle Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Lowestoft - UK Posts: 4,015	Re: At what point do you decide to reveal a twist in a screenplay? Who would the audience be? Santa Claus Movie - so are we talking comedy, drama or what? AND - is this a multi-age product, the old fashioned family movie with a happy ending?

March 16th, 2020, 03:44 AM	#74
Ryan Elder also known as Ryan Wray Join Date: Nov 2017 Location: Saskatoon, Canada Posts: 2,880	Re: At what point do you decide to reveal a twist in a screenplay? It's more of a comedy so maybe a more realistic look to it, might add to the comedy, but it might also have the effect of people thinking it's too cheap looking as well. As for a copy and paste process, whenever I try to do something original and make it my own, I am told it doesn't work, so I try to do what people want as a result. I could go full on original and make a movie I've never seen before, but also shot in a way I have never seen before, but worried that people might think I am trying to reinvent the wheel, but in a bad way if I do that, since I have often been told I have done things wrong before.

March 16th, 2020, 04:10 AM	#75
Brian Drysdale Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Belfast, UK Posts: 6,143	Re: At what point do you decide to reveal a twist in a screenplay? If the content in front of the camera is good with at least some original content, you don't need to come up with super clever shots and editing.