Is hiring a second unit director a bad idea?

Brian Drysdale · April 23rd, 2021, 09:45 AM

You're the director, all that is your decision.

If you go to another city, you'll need to establish filmmaking contacts, because you won't be able to pay everyone on your budget. That's par for the course on micro budget films.

Ryan Elder · April 23rd, 2021, 06:50 PM

Oh are you saying that that's a disadvantage compared to working with the contacts I have already established?

Brian Drysdale · April 24th, 2021, 12:35 AM

Just that it will take time to establish a network in a new city.

It's less of an issue if you're hiring a professional crew, but you don't have the funds for that. Even with that it requires establishing a pee-production base do all the work before filming starts in a new city..

It's common to bring cast members to the filming location (e.,g. your current location), but you do need to add accommodation and travel expenses to any fees that need to be paid to the actors.

Ryan Elder · April 24th, 2021, 12:57 AM

I thought of bringing them to me as well, but wouldn't it cost less money if I go there, since that is just one person traveling compared to bringing them all to me?

Also, it was said before that I need a more experienced crew, so wouldn't it be good then, or not necessarily, if it takes more time and costs more money? Or is it necessary since it was said the cinematography, production design, etc, was poor before?

Brian Drysdale · April 24th, 2021, 01:33 AM

It depends if you're planning to move completely to a new city for months if not years, because that's what doing this would probably involve. It takes time to establish a good network of suitable people who are willing to work for free on a feature film.

Ryan Elder · April 24th, 2021, 01:43 AM

I see what you mean. Well it was said before that I need a better crew, so if that's true, is there a better idea? Or was the suggestion meant that I try to find a better one in the place I already live in?

Brian Drysdale · April 24th, 2021, 02:01 AM

You have local knowledge, we don't know who's available in your area or region.

Ryan Elder · April 24th, 2021, 02:08 AM

That's true, and I could use local knowledge, it was just said before that I could use other people, who are more experienced. However, most of the people I worked with so far work behind the camera, and not in front of it so I would either have to go to another city with a crew from here perhaps, to work with actors, or bring them here perhaps if that's better.

Paul R Johnson · April 24th, 2021, 02:28 AM

That sounds right.

Ryan - the snag really seems to be that you consistently ask for advice from everyone, don't appear to be decisive at all in any area and you should have thought about this before you even wrote a script.

In any project in the professional world, it's always the producers who have the idea. "Lets do this" Everyone thinks its a good idea so they find a director. If they need specific roles, then they might know Fred, the Director knows Fred and says no - he's terrible at that, and he's doing X at the moment. The Director then suggests Jane. He knows her work and thinks she will fit. The Producers tell him how much is on offer and the Director thinks he might go for it but only if they offer more. They do or they don't. If they don't then he suggests Jim, who works for lower fees but is a bit er, less good. Eventually you have the best team money can buy. At the same time the identical process starts with the actors - but their availability is always a key feature - shifting the date can count them out. They also want guarantees if they keep the diary spot open. Others might be amateur who book annual holiday - they might work for peanuts but dates are just as critical. Somebody on the team starts scouting locations, and so it goes on.

You cannot be all these people - well, some Directors can wear multiple hats, but that isn't you. Your failures in the past are plainly down to bad planning - you ended up with rotten actors, a rotten script, poor technical, dodgy locations and a recipe for disaster. You seem good at thinking about planning - but it's always in pencil, so you keep rubbing out. At some point plans become ink - big, black, bold ink. You never get to this stage and spend all your time putting out fires. You agonise about how long it takes to shoot a page of script, because you keep thinking the location owner will boot you out. Plan properly and it doesn't happen.

They shot a part of a movie in my town - taking over a busy side street house - parking Panavision trucks in people's car spaces near a school, making people late, upsetting residents - BUT - they had done it properly. Permits to park generators, wayleaves to get cables over people's gardens - a generator cable crossing a residents grass garden earned them £50 for two days. The small builder let them park in his yard and they gave him £120 to cover parking and electricity overnight. They had two security people from a local firm - £240 a day per person - perhaps higher than some technical crew were paid. Proper planning. Unencumbered shooting for a couple of days - the immediate locals compensated for the inconvenience. Shot in an ordinary house, no idea why, but everyone happy - bat people like me who drive down the street and had to divert.

If you want to make low budget features, you have to consider all this and pay for it. There is no such thing as a no budget decent feature unless you do everything yourself.

Brian Drysdale · April 24th, 2021, 03:36 AM

It's possible to make a feature film without all the resources found on professional production. Depending on nature of the film, you could possibly do it with a crew of 5, which used to be the standard documentary crew sizw,

However, you do need a reliable, multi skilled crew. Although, from experience, unless you've got some production people working at a unit base organising things, logistics tend to limit you to about a week's filming. After which you need to prepare for the next block of filming.

Ryan Elder · April 24th, 2021, 10:03 AM

Oh okay. Well I am willing to pay and do not want to make a no budget project again and have better results. So I am willing to spend money. And I don't have to wear a lot of hats and can give hats to other people if that's better. As for planning in ink, it's just when I did that before and things were written in ink, things went wrong, so I wanted to be very careful, and be open to change. I was told that I have a tendency to underthink and not plan enough, so I want to plan a not more, and not underthink this time, unless that's not the way to go? Plus I need to find enough good actors and crew to choose from before I move forward as well, and still looking and deciding what's the best place to cast it where I will find them, that I can afford.

Ryan Elder · April 24th, 2021, 10:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brian Drysdale

It's possible to make a feature film without all the resources found on professional production. Depending on nature of the film, you could possibly do it with a crew of 5, which used to be the standard documentary crew sizw,

However, you do need a reliable, multi skilled crew. Although, from experience, unless you've got some production people working at a unit base organising things, logistics tend to limit you to about a week's filming. After which you need to prepare for the next block of filming.

Oh okay but when you say I am limiting to a week's worth of filming, and then after that I need to prepare for the next block of filming, are you saying I can only plan one week of filmming at a time?

Brian Drysdale · April 24th, 2021, 10:41 AM

No, just you need production people setting up the next week's filming while your are filming. You should read what I've written.

Currently, you don't have enough to pay for a crew and cast on a feature film. There are other costs, which you may just about be able to afford. In the world of micro budgets, it all deferred payments, that you don't get paid.

There may be payments stated in the contract, but in practice you don't get paid.

Ryan Elder · April 24th, 2021, 10:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brian Drysdale

It's possible to make a feature film without all the resources found on professional production. Depending on nature of the film, you could possibly do it with a crew of 5, which used to be the standard documentary crew sizw,

However, you do need a reliable, multi skilled crew. Although, from experience, unless you've got some production people working at a unit base organising things, logistics tend to limit you to about a week's filming. After which you need to prepare for the next block of filming.

Oh okay I see. I can see that because it was difficult for me to plan the next shoots while I was currently shooting so it would be nice to have people that can help with that for sure, like you suggested :). What about other features films that are shot on a low budget? For example the most costly one I helped work on was 80,000 USD but would that be enough if you want it to be good? Is it possible to make a feature that can be good for half that amount if possible, to save on some costs?

Brian Drysdale · April 24th, 2021, 11:49 AM

How good it will be will depend on what you're trying to do with the budget.

It will depend on what resources you can access, how good and creative the cast and crew are and how good the script is.

You can spend $100 million and have a disastrous film that doesn't work on any level.

April 23rd, 2021, 09:45 AM	#76
Brian Drysdale Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Belfast, UK Posts: 6,143	Re: Is hiring a second unit director a bad idea? You're the director, all that is your decision. If you go to another city, you'll need to establish filmmaking contacts, because you won't be able to pay everyone on your budget. That's par for the course on micro budget films.

April 23rd, 2021, 06:50 PM	#77
Ryan Elder also known as Ryan Wray Join Date: Nov 2017 Location: Saskatoon, Canada Posts: 2,880	Re: Is hiring a second unit director a bad idea? Oh are you saying that that's a disadvantage compared to working with the contacts I have already established?

April 24th, 2021, 12:35 AM	#78
Brian Drysdale Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Belfast, UK Posts: 6,143	Re: Is hiring a second unit director a bad idea? Just that it will take time to establish a network in a new city. It's less of an issue if you're hiring a professional crew, but you don't have the funds for that. Even with that it requires establishing a pee-production base do all the work before filming starts in a new city.. It's common to bring cast members to the filming location (e.,g. your current location), but you do need to add accommodation and travel expenses to any fees that need to be paid to the actors.

April 24th, 2021, 12:57 AM	#79
Ryan Elder also known as Ryan Wray Join Date: Nov 2017 Location: Saskatoon, Canada Posts: 2,880	Re: Is hiring a second unit director a bad idea? I thought of bringing them to me as well, but wouldn't it cost less money if I go there, since that is just one person traveling compared to bringing them all to me? Also, it was said before that I need a more experienced crew, so wouldn't it be good then, or not necessarily, if it takes more time and costs more money? Or is it necessary since it was said the cinematography, production design, etc, was poor before?

April 24th, 2021, 01:33 AM	#80
Brian Drysdale Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Belfast, UK Posts: 6,143	Re: Is hiring a second unit director a bad idea? It depends if you're planning to move completely to a new city for months if not years, because that's what doing this would probably involve. It takes time to establish a good network of suitable people who are willing to work for free on a feature film.

April 24th, 2021, 01:43 AM	#81
Ryan Elder also known as Ryan Wray Join Date: Nov 2017 Location: Saskatoon, Canada Posts: 2,880	Re: Is hiring a second unit director a bad idea? I see what you mean. Well it was said before that I need a better crew, so if that's true, is there a better idea? Or was the suggestion meant that I try to find a better one in the place I already live in?

April 24th, 2021, 02:01 AM	#82
Brian Drysdale Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Belfast, UK Posts: 6,143	Re: Is hiring a second unit director a bad idea? You have local knowledge, we don't know who's available in your area or region.

April 24th, 2021, 02:08 AM	#83
Ryan Elder also known as Ryan Wray Join Date: Nov 2017 Location: Saskatoon, Canada Posts: 2,880	Re: Is hiring a second unit director a bad idea? That's true, and I could use local knowledge, it was just said before that I could use other people, who are more experienced. However, most of the people I worked with so far work behind the camera, and not in front of it so I would either have to go to another city with a crew from here perhaps, to work with actors, or bring them here perhaps if that's better.

April 24th, 2021, 02:28 AM	#84
Paul R Johnson Inner Circle Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Lowestoft - UK Posts: 4,016	Re: Is hiring a second unit director a bad idea? That sounds right. Ryan - the snag really seems to be that you consistently ask for advice from everyone, don't appear to be decisive at all in any area and you should have thought about this before you even wrote a script. In any project in the professional world, it's always the producers who have the idea. "Lets do this" Everyone thinks its a good idea so they find a director. If they need specific roles, then they might know Fred, the Director knows Fred and says no - he's terrible at that, and he's doing X at the moment. The Director then suggests Jane. He knows her work and thinks she will fit. The Producers tell him how much is on offer and the Director thinks he might go for it but only if they offer more. They do or they don't. If they don't then he suggests Jim, who works for lower fees but is a bit er, less good. Eventually you have the best team money can buy. At the same time the identical process starts with the actors - but their availability is always a key feature - shifting the date can count them out. They also want guarantees if they keep the diary spot open. Others might be amateur who book annual holiday - they might work for peanuts but dates are just as critical. Somebody on the team starts scouting locations, and so it goes on. You cannot be all these people - well, some Directors can wear multiple hats, but that isn't you. Your failures in the past are plainly down to bad planning - you ended up with rotten actors, a rotten script, poor technical, dodgy locations and a recipe for disaster. You seem good at thinking about planning - but it's always in pencil, so you keep rubbing out. At some point plans become ink - big, black, bold ink. You never get to this stage and spend all your time putting out fires. You agonise about how long it takes to shoot a page of script, because you keep thinking the location owner will boot you out. Plan properly and it doesn't happen. They shot a part of a movie in my town - taking over a busy side street house - parking Panavision trucks in people's car spaces near a school, making people late, upsetting residents - BUT - they had done it properly. Permits to park generators, wayleaves to get cables over people's gardens - a generator cable crossing a residents grass garden earned them £50 for two days. The small builder let them park in his yard and they gave him £120 to cover parking and electricity overnight. They had two security people from a local firm - £240 a day per person - perhaps higher than some technical crew were paid. Proper planning. Unencumbered shooting for a couple of days - the immediate locals compensated for the inconvenience. Shot in an ordinary house, no idea why, but everyone happy - bat people like me who drive down the street and had to divert. If you want to make low budget features, you have to consider all this and pay for it. There is no such thing as a no budget decent feature unless you do everything yourself.

April 24th, 2021, 03:36 AM	#85
Brian Drysdale Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Belfast, UK Posts: 6,143	Re: Is hiring a second unit director a bad idea? It's possible to make a feature film without all the resources found on professional production. Depending on nature of the film, you could possibly do it with a crew of 5, which used to be the standard documentary crew sizw, However, you do need a reliable, multi skilled crew. Although, from experience, unless you've got some production people working at a unit base organising things, logistics tend to limit you to about a week's filming. After which you need to prepare for the next block of filming.

April 24th, 2021, 10:03 AM	#86
Ryan Elder also known as Ryan Wray Join Date: Nov 2017 Location: Saskatoon, Canada Posts: 2,880	Re: Is hiring a second unit director a bad idea? Oh okay. Well I am willing to pay and do not want to make a no budget project again and have better results. So I am willing to spend money. And I don't have to wear a lot of hats and can give hats to other people if that's better. As for planning in ink, it's just when I did that before and things were written in ink, things went wrong, so I wanted to be very careful, and be open to change. I was told that I have a tendency to underthink and not plan enough, so I want to plan a not more, and not underthink this time, unless that's not the way to go? Plus I need to find enough good actors and crew to choose from before I move forward as well, and still looking and deciding what's the best place to cast it where I will find them, that I can afford.

April 24th, 2021, 10:41 AM	#88
Brian Drysdale Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Belfast, UK Posts: 6,143	Re: Is hiring a second unit director a bad idea? No, just you need production people setting up the next week's filming while your are filming. You should read what I've written. Currently, you don't have enough to pay for a crew and cast on a feature film. There are other costs, which you may just about be able to afford. In the world of micro budgets, it all deferred payments, that you don't get paid. There may be payments stated in the contract, but in practice you don't get paid.

April 24th, 2021, 11:49 AM	#90
Brian Drysdale Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Belfast, UK Posts: 6,143	Re: Is hiring a second unit director a bad idea? How good it will be will depend on what you're trying to do with the budget. It will depend on what resources you can access, how good and creative the cast and crew are and how good the script is. You can spend $100 million and have a disastrous film that doesn't work on any level.