Should I try to talk this director into doing this differently?

Paul R Johnson · June 3rd, 2021, 12:59 PM

The makeup people will be smacking their foreheads here Ryan. Makeup is an art - big time. Spraying makeup is totally different to the old techniques. Some is really cutting edge.

I actually wrote an exam unit in prosthetic makeup in the early 2000s - an HND. I was a bit behind on technique so spent a week with an artist and learned so much.

Ryan Elder · June 6th, 2021, 09:49 AM

Oh okay thanks. It's for the actors I have access to, there are two in particular I want to look younger. I can get make up artists and let them know that.

Also, even though I read how they make women look softer and men not, with lighting, I never understood that, because a lot of times, when this is done, the guy just ends up looking siginificantly older than the woman in characters who are suppose to be a couple, unless this is usually intentional in the lighting and make up?

Paul R Johnson · June 6th, 2021, 10:46 AM

Lighting cannot distinguish between sexes, but the essential component is the sharpness of shadows. The shadow from the sun has travelled 93 million miles so it's rays are almost parallel. When these impact on skin, the tiny hair follicles create shadows - like the surface of the moon. This makes the bigger 'holes' and emergent hairs on men typically show up more. Female facial hair is much smaller and less visible.Acne and spots become very visible on both sexes. Wrinkles and skin imperfections become more obvious. The most narrow lighting fixtures are things like Source 4s - not parallel, but they do create shadows. Fresnels create less, if they're also big - so a 12" Fresnel works better for softness than a 6" one. Move to panels and fixtures with big sheets of diffuser and the light's pretty soft.

If you were doing an interview with a male and a female and wanted soft and gentle for her, and harsh and revealing for the fella, you could do this with lighting. Much harder to do for a movie scene without lighting people and budget.

The snag Ryan, as usual, will be finding a makeup expert in Saskatoon - TV and movie makeup people are hardly common.

John Nantz · June 6th, 2021, 11:13 AM

Hey Ryan - It’s really good to read that you’re jumping in to other areas besides just doig the “assigned” job! All these experiences will help with the overall knowledge of how stuff can be, or might be done. In the old days, one had to go through an apprenticeship in a craft and part of the learning was not only how to do certain things but also being exposed to so many things that weren’t taught in the classroom. All this exposure will help collect those little “nuggets”, not speaking of gold, per se, but useful bits knowledge about how something can, or might, be done, which in the end is akin to gold because that is how one derives their living.

Another way to say this, its learning via the road of hard knocks.
(well, kinda .... hard knocks is more about when there was a problem)

But, this is all what counts as EXPERIENCE!
And it is valuable!

Ryan Elder · June 6th, 2021, 11:19 AM

Thank you everyone for all the advice on it! Well I could get someone from outside of where I live if that's better and just bring them here perhaps.

One make up and lighting example in a movie I did not understand is Casablanaca. They seemed to use much softer make up and lighting on Ingrid Bergman than Humphrey Bogart. This makes Bogart look significantly older than her but was this intentional?

Brian Drysdale · June 6th, 2021, 12:04 PM

Bogart has a tough, lived in look and any age difference didn't appear out of place. After all he met his real life wife. Lauren Bacall, when she was 19 (25 year difference). In films it's not unusual for an older man to attract a younger women. High Noon perhaps pushes a bit too far.

In real life older men have relationships with younger women and older women have relationships with younger men. I know one woman who did both.

At time of Casablanca, they usually used hard light and the female actors, commonly had a frontal key light for their CU/ It's about making them look like movie stars. .

If you want a tough male lead, you don't light them like the female lead.

Paul R Johnson · June 6th, 2021, 01:26 PM

Marlene Deitrich had her own personal lighting director. A famous lighting designer called Joe Davis. He was responsible for her image on stage and screen for 22 years. She was very protective of her image.

Brian's quite right - you might spend a very long time doing the tuning for these people. Casablanca is a great example of careful lighting and camera setup, shot by shot. I don't think the attempt was to make him look older, but to make him look harder and different to Bergman's look.

Ed Roo · June 6th, 2021, 04:37 PM

Paul R Johnson · June 7th, 2021, 01:22 AM

It was just getting good and I thought nice, and then he wrecked it with the last bit, the greeny murky look. Just shows how one person’s likes are different. My thumb was up till that moment and I ended up hating it.

Dave Baker · June 7th, 2021, 02:47 AM

At the risk of adding even more confusion, why is it that folks who make these tutorials almost never use videoscopes? This fellow mentions the RGB parade in passing 'tis true, but passes it off as unimportant. I thought the golden rule was you can rely on scopes, but can't be sure how accurate your display is unless it is a properly calibrated professional one, so what looks good on your display to your eyes may look pretty awful on someone else's and since he is using a laptop................

June 3rd, 2021, 12:59 PM	#46
Paul R Johnson Inner Circle Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Lowestoft - UK Posts: 4,016	Re: Should I try to talk this director into doing this differently? The makeup people will be smacking their foreheads here Ryan. Makeup is an art - big time. Spraying makeup is totally different to the old techniques. Some is really cutting edge. I actually wrote an exam unit in prosthetic makeup in the early 2000s - an HND. I was a bit behind on technique so spent a week with an artist and learned so much.

June 6th, 2021, 09:49 AM	#47
Ryan Elder also known as Ryan Wray Join Date: Nov 2017 Location: Saskatoon, Canada Posts: 2,880	Re: Should I try to talk this director into doing this differently? Oh okay thanks. It's for the actors I have access to, there are two in particular I want to look younger. I can get make up artists and let them know that. Also, even though I read how they make women look softer and men not, with lighting, I never understood that, because a lot of times, when this is done, the guy just ends up looking siginificantly older than the woman in characters who are suppose to be a couple, unless this is usually intentional in the lighting and make up?

June 6th, 2021, 10:46 AM	#48
Paul R Johnson Inner Circle Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Lowestoft - UK Posts: 4,016	Re: Should I try to talk this director into doing this differently? Lighting cannot distinguish between sexes, but the essential component is the sharpness of shadows. The shadow from the sun has travelled 93 million miles so it's rays are almost parallel. When these impact on skin, the tiny hair follicles create shadows - like the surface of the moon. This makes the bigger 'holes' and emergent hairs on men typically show up more. Female facial hair is much smaller and less visible.Acne and spots become very visible on both sexes. Wrinkles and skin imperfections become more obvious. The most narrow lighting fixtures are things like Source 4s - not parallel, but they do create shadows. Fresnels create less, if they're also big - so a 12" Fresnel works better for softness than a 6" one. Move to panels and fixtures with big sheets of diffuser and the light's pretty soft. If you were doing an interview with a male and a female and wanted soft and gentle for her, and harsh and revealing for the fella, you could do this with lighting. Much harder to do for a movie scene without lighting people and budget. The snag Ryan, as usual, will be finding a makeup expert in Saskatoon - TV and movie makeup people are hardly common.

June 6th, 2021, 11:13 AM	#49
John Nantz Trustee Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: Seattle WA Posts: 1,252	Re: Should I try to talk this director into doing this differently? Hey Ryan - It’s really good to read that you’re jumping in to other areas besides just doig the “assigned” job! All these experiences will help with the overall knowledge of how stuff can be, or might be done. In the old days, one had to go through an apprenticeship in a craft and part of the learning was not only how to do certain things but also being exposed to so many things that weren’t taught in the classroom. All this exposure will help collect those little “nuggets”, not speaking of gold, per se, but useful bits knowledge about how something can, or might, be done, which in the end is akin to gold because that is how one derives their living. Another way to say this, its learning via the road of hard knocks. (well, kinda .... hard knocks is more about when there was a problem) But, this is all what counts as EXPERIENCE! And it is valuable! Last edited by John Nantz; June 6th, 2021 at 11:15 AM. Reason: experience > experiences

June 6th, 2021, 11:19 AM	#50
Ryan Elder also known as Ryan Wray Join Date: Nov 2017 Location: Saskatoon, Canada Posts: 2,880	Re: Should I try to talk this director into doing this differently? Thank you everyone for all the advice on it! Well I could get someone from outside of where I live if that's better and just bring them here perhaps. One make up and lighting example in a movie I did not understand is Casablanaca. They seemed to use much softer make up and lighting on Ingrid Bergman than Humphrey Bogart. This makes Bogart look significantly older than her but was this intentional?

June 6th, 2021, 12:04 PM	#51
Brian Drysdale Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Belfast, UK Posts: 6,143	Re: Should I try to talk this director into doing this differently? Bogart has a tough, lived in look and any age difference didn't appear out of place. After all he met his real life wife. Lauren Bacall, when she was 19 (25 year difference). In films it's not unusual for an older man to attract a younger women. High Noon perhaps pushes a bit too far. In real life older men have relationships with younger women and older women have relationships with younger men. I know one woman who did both. At time of Casablanca, they usually used hard light and the female actors, commonly had a frontal key light for their CU/ It's about making them look like movie stars. . If you want a tough male lead, you don't light them like the female lead. Last edited by Brian Drysdale; June 6th, 2021 at 01:46 PM.

June 6th, 2021, 01:26 PM	#52
Paul R Johnson Inner Circle Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Lowestoft - UK Posts: 4,016	Re: Should I try to talk this director into doing this differently? Marlene Deitrich had her own personal lighting director. A famous lighting designer called Joe Davis. He was responsible for her image on stage and screen for 22 years. She was very protective of her image. Brian's quite right - you might spend a very long time doing the tuning for these people. Casablanca is a great example of careful lighting and camera setup, shot by shot. I don't think the attempt was to make him look older, but to make him look harder and different to Bergman's look.

June 6th, 2021, 04:37 PM	#53
Ed Roo Major Player Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: Columbus USA Posts: 312	Re: Should I try to talk this director into doing this differently? How to do a basic COLOUR GRADE on your SMARTPHONE FILM - YouTube

June 7th, 2021, 01:22 AM	#54
Paul R Johnson Inner Circle Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Lowestoft - UK Posts: 4,016	Re: Should I try to talk this director into doing this differently? It was just getting good and I thought nice, and then he wrecked it with the last bit, the greeny murky look. Just shows how one person’s likes are different. My thumb was up till that moment and I ended up hating it.

June 7th, 2021, 02:47 AM	#55
Dave Baker Major Player Join Date: May 2014 Location: Brandon, England Posts: 458	Re: Should I try to talk this director into doing this differently? At the risk of adding even more confusion, why is it that folks who make these tutorials almost never use videoscopes? This fellow mentions the RGB parade in passing 'tis true, but passes it off as unimportant. I thought the golden rule was you can rely on scopes, but can't be sure how accurate your display is unless it is a properly calibrated professional one, so what looks good on your display to your eyes may look pretty awful on someone else's and since he is using a laptop................