Video vs Still - Intriguing Questions

Rodney Compton · February 11th, 2006, 04:28 AM

Hi Brendan

Do you use an XM2 or an XL2 (which has interchangeable lenses).

I am assuming that since the XL2 and the XLH1 are so similar superficially that the differences incorporated into the XLH1 are not so substantial that we could not regard the high definition camera as an evolution of the XL2.

A similar process takes place in stills cameras, in the D10-D20-D5 series, for instance, where the same basic package is updated to incorporate more advanced and therefore more marketable products. As for the lens quality, I think we can assume that the comments made by Michael are accurate, since Canon are purported to have made an upgrade to the standard 20x lens to get the best out of the new HD sensors. This type of upgrade would be unthinkable with stills cameras - lens technology in that format has always been in advance of film or sensor development.

Which brings me to a thought about Canon's video range as a whole and a slight contradiction of what I said before about the XL2, XLH1 evolution. I see Canon as being in a very difficult position in the marketplace. They have evolved a consumer product to the point where it is threshold professional. In there stills range, there is no such problem, since the range smoothly extends from the base level camera right through the amateur range to the top professional camera.

The market position of Canon is obviously historical; at the moment they supply the professional video market with lenses for more or less the complete range of professional video cameras, what they don't do is supply professional video cameras to go with their hi-end lenses. In this sense the XLH1 is neither fish nor fowl; it is obviously an upgrade to the XL2, but priced more like a low end professional camera. I think such a market position is unsustainable and we might expect Canon to eventually take the leap and enter a truly professional product.

Whichever way you look at it, it is a conundrum and perhaps demonstrates the remarkable dichotomy of approach, where amazing levels of technical innovation are combined with a truly conservative oriental approach to marketing.

Rod Compton

Rodney Compton · February 11th, 2006, 04:32 AM

Hi me again with some second thoughts.

Perhaps Canon have a marketing agreement with Sony not to produce a complementary professional camera range. Now there's a thought.

Rod C

Michael Salzlechner · February 11th, 2006, 06:37 AM

Rodney

you may well be right about canon going to introduce a professional camera. historically canon is known to 'try' things on consumer/prosumer level first and then use that information to build their professional lines (in still cameras).

The XL-H1 might be such a thing. A way to test the waters with pro stuff and still get paid for it.

As far as markets canon is generally known to do pretty well in market assessments so i dont think they will have problems selling enough of these puppies to be profitable. Pricing wise it is obviously priced for a smaller market already similar to the EOS1DSII on the still camera side.

Rodney Compton · February 11th, 2006, 12:44 PM

Hi Michael,

You might be right. I think the next move is probably hard disk or P2 type card, which I for one would sooner wait for than buy the XLH1. I am also waiting for an upgrade to the 16x manual lens before I trade my XL2.

Incidentally I found a nice shoulder brace for the XL2 and it has been the only time I have felt comfortable using manual focus on the 20X lens when hand held.

I wonder if you have any views about some really serious distortion I have picked up on some XL2 footage. I think it derives from the use of the lens image stabiliser when the camera is on a tripod, (which Canon say not use, but is easily overlooked when switching between hand and tripod shots). To describe it, I would say it's like really jagged lines around moving images within the frame.

Rodney

Michael Salzlechner · February 11th, 2006, 01:02 PM

Rodney

I havent seen a problem with the IS on a tripod on the XL2 but i am used to it from still cameras where the older version of canon's IS also requires you to turn it off.

the issue with the stabilizer on a tripod is that it tries to stabilize movement that isnt there. On a still camera you can see the problem well for example with the 100-400 L IS. If you turn the stabilizer on on the tripod you can actually see the viewfinder image move to a side and then jump back and move. This is a slow move.

Now i guess the stabilizer on the XL2 works the same way (both are optical stabilizers). Now the question is how it would show.

I have to add that i did a video a while ago at a funeral and i had the camera on a tripod for a while and also forgot to turn off IS but i didnt notice any issues at all

Did you call canon support ?

Steve House · February 11th, 2006, 01:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rodney Compton

...

I wonder if you have any views about some really serious distortion I have picked up on some XL2 footage. I think it derives from the use of the lens image stabiliser when the camera is on a tripod, (which Canon say not use, but is easily overlooked when switching between hand and tripod shots). To describe it, I would say it's like really jagged lines around moving images within the frame.

Rodney

When the camera is locked down on a tripod, the IS interprets subject movement, the "moving" part of motion pictures <grin>, as camera jiggle and tries to correct for it. Of course since the subject movement is what you're trying to capture in the first place, it needs to be turned off so as to not be allowed to do that.

Michael Salzlechner · February 11th, 2006, 02:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve House

When the camera is locked down on a tripod, the IS interprets subject movement, the "moving" part of motion pictures <grin>, as camera jiggle and tries to correct for it. Of course since the subject movement is what you're trying to capture in the first place, it needs to be turned off so as to not be allowed to do that.

AFAIK this is not the case. Definately not with th IS used in still cameras

The IS is optical and senses actual movement of the lens using sensors and corrects by moving lens elements

This type of stabilization can physically not detect subject motion at all

February 11th, 2006, 04:28 AM	#16
Rodney Compton Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: London Posts: 90	Xm2 Xl2 Hi Brendan Do you use an XM2 or an XL2 (which has interchangeable lenses). I am assuming that since the XL2 and the XLH1 are so similar superficially that the differences incorporated into the XLH1 are not so substantial that we could not regard the high definition camera as an evolution of the XL2. A similar process takes place in stills cameras, in the D10-D20-D5 series, for instance, where the same basic package is updated to incorporate more advanced and therefore more marketable products. As for the lens quality, I think we can assume that the comments made by Michael are accurate, since Canon are purported to have made an upgrade to the standard 20x lens to get the best out of the new HD sensors. This type of upgrade would be unthinkable with stills cameras - lens technology in that format has always been in advance of film or sensor development. Which brings me to a thought about Canon's video range as a whole and a slight contradiction of what I said before about the XL2, XLH1 evolution. I see Canon as being in a very difficult position in the marketplace. They have evolved a consumer product to the point where it is threshold professional. In there stills range, there is no such problem, since the range smoothly extends from the base level camera right through the amateur range to the top professional camera. The market position of Canon is obviously historical; at the moment they supply the professional video market with lenses for more or less the complete range of professional video cameras, what they don't do is supply professional video cameras to go with their hi-end lenses. In this sense the XLH1 is neither fish nor fowl; it is obviously an upgrade to the XL2, but priced more like a low end professional camera. I think such a market position is unsustainable and we might expect Canon to eventually take the leap and enter a truly professional product. Whichever way you look at it, it is a conundrum and perhaps demonstrates the remarkable dichotomy of approach, where amazing levels of technical innovation are combined with a truly conservative oriental approach to marketing. Rod Compton

February 11th, 2006, 04:32 AM	#17
Rodney Compton Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: London Posts: 90	Xl2 Xlh1 Hi me again with some second thoughts. Perhaps Canon have a marketing agreement with Sony not to produce a complementary professional camera range. Now there's a thought. Rod C

February 11th, 2006, 06:37 AM	#18
Michael Salzlechner Major Player Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Royal Palm Beach, FL, US Posts: 228	Rodney you may well be right about canon going to introduce a professional camera. historically canon is known to 'try' things on consumer/prosumer level first and then use that information to build their professional lines (in still cameras). The XL-H1 might be such a thing. A way to test the waters with pro stuff and still get paid for it. As far as markets canon is generally known to do pretty well in market assessments so i dont think they will have problems selling enough of these puppies to be profitable. Pricing wise it is obviously priced for a smaller market already similar to the EOS1DSII on the still camera side. __________________ Michael Salzlechner

February 11th, 2006, 12:44 PM	#19
Rodney Compton Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: London Posts: 90	Canon the next step Hi Michael, You might be right. I think the next move is probably hard disk or P2 type card, which I for one would sooner wait for than buy the XLH1. I am also waiting for an upgrade to the 16x manual lens before I trade my XL2. Incidentally I found a nice shoulder brace for the XL2 and it has been the only time I have felt comfortable using manual focus on the 20X lens when hand held. I wonder if you have any views about some really serious distortion I have picked up on some XL2 footage. I think it derives from the use of the lens image stabiliser when the camera is on a tripod, (which Canon say not use, but is easily overlooked when switching between hand and tripod shots). To describe it, I would say it's like really jagged lines around moving images within the frame. Rodney

February 11th, 2006, 01:02 PM	#20
Michael Salzlechner Major Player Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Royal Palm Beach, FL, US Posts: 228	Rodney I havent seen a problem with the IS on a tripod on the XL2 but i am used to it from still cameras where the older version of canon's IS also requires you to turn it off. the issue with the stabilizer on a tripod is that it tries to stabilize movement that isnt there. On a still camera you can see the problem well for example with the 100-400 L IS. If you turn the stabilizer on on the tripod you can actually see the viewfinder image move to a side and then jump back and move. This is a slow move. Now i guess the stabilizer on the XL2 works the same way (both are optical stabilizers). Now the question is how it would show. I have to add that i did a video a while ago at a funeral and i had the camera on a tripod for a while and also forgot to turn off IS but i didnt notice any issues at all Did you call canon support ? __________________ Michael Salzlechner