Another month for my DVC30.. NOT HAPPY PANASONIC

Peter Jefferson · August 29th, 2004, 06:34 AM

huh?? this is all wierd..

re: DVC30 resolution quality is running the same algorythms as the GS400, with the inclsusion of a 12bit RGB Processor...
Sure the GS may have a higher pixel count, however those pixels need alot more light to penetrate due to the physical size of them being smal, the surface area is alot smaller.

as for configuability, the GS and DVC30 are incomparable, they are 2 very different cameras.

as for the PDX10, its still the only miniDV cam to run TRUE 16:9 with no deterioration in quality, the XL2 doesnt even work in this manner, as the XL2 downsamples the captured image to a resolution pixel count even lower than the DVX100

As for the questions -

1. Saturation - camcorderinfo revew indicates that colors on DVC arent as saturated compared to GS400. Can you achive GS satration level manually adjusting DVC?

((yes, but u have to remember that these reviews are usually an ill informed source with a day or so of the reviewer having a fiddle with the cam. The only way to trully compare is to run a side by side comparison AT THE SAME TIME, ie have both cameras rolling at once. To answer ur question though, the DVC can have its colour as well as other factors such as master pedestal, phase shifting, temperature etc etc etc.. these can be set into a scene file))

2. Cinegamma - can you use MovieLike setting in 60i/4:3?
In your opinion which cam has better cinegamma - DVC or GS?

((apparently the gamma curve is the same.. according to spec anyway.. but the built in ND and glass quality will obviously give the DVC a better finished look. Only the DVX/a allows for an adjsutment of Cinegamma TYPES.. ))

3. Frame mode - after reading all the posts here and everywere else im still confused - is it true 30fps on DVC, or double frames recorded in 60fs, just like on 953/GS400?
Which of the two cams has smoother frame mode?

((Frame mode is the interpolation of both fields.. basically the 2 frames are blended as one.. thats NOT to say theyre progressive as these CCDs are not.
Its all in cam Software which does this, and by the looks and widespread use of this feature, its more than likely the same across the DVC and GS..
As for smoother frame mode... theyre pretty much identical, so the only way to get this effect in the truest sense is to go for a native progressive CCD like the DVX or XL2))

4. Is it true that DVC 's lenses r wider and therefore it would have more horizonal coverage than GS (in the context of DVC30's wider lenses vs GS400's HQ WS)?

((yes.. much wider.. .7 wide i think from memory.. and the 16x zoom + the 1.5 digital adjsutment offers a 20x digital zoom (ie 16 optical + 4 digital with virtually no obviouis loss in quality)
but the lense is wide.. much like the dvx.. as for high quality 16:9, u can get anamorphic widescreen adapters for the DVC filter size. Im using a 16:9 anamorphic adapter for teh dvx and its superb, full res, no cropping, brilliant wideangles.. U can prolly find a similar lense for the GS))

5. I read in the DVC30's PAL manual that it 's got 2 image stabilization modes - the 'reglar' mode and on top of that additional hand shake sabilization mode? Do NTSC models have the same '2 lines of defense' and how much does this 'duo IS' acually improve stabilization?

never hear dof the 2... can u give me apage number on teh manual??
i DO know that both the GS and DVC have optical stabilisers.. but the DVC is running the same Gyro mechanism of the DVX. (hence the tapping when u tilt the cam) one thing on the GS, is that in picture mode, it runs a Mega optical Image stabiliser.. very stable, but only used for stills...

Tommy Haupfear · August 29th, 2004, 07:20 AM

Quote:

as for the PDX10, its still the only miniDV cam to run TRUE 16:9 with no deterioration in quality

I'm confused by this statement. There are plenty of MiniDV cams with true 16:9. The GS400, PC350, and Optura Xi come to mind first.

Quote:

U can prolly find a similar lense for the GS

The GS400 offers a wider angle of view in 16:9 and has no vertical zooming to achieve its true 16:9 in-camera.

Peter Jefferson · August 29th, 2004, 07:52 AM

"I'm confused by this statement. There are plenty of MiniDV cams with true 16:9. The GS400, PC350, and Optura Xi come to mind first."

actaully they dont.. they crop 12.5% top and bottom then stretch the footage.. Total loss of 25%
the higher the pixel count in the cam (ie gs400) the better it will look, but its still not native..

the PDX10 DOESNT do this.. it uses its full CCD pixel capacity.. its well documented with many reviews as well as projects (and bradcast use) opting to use these cams until a better alternative is made available..

"The GS400 offers a wider angle of view in 16:9 and has no vertical zooming to achieve its true 16:9 in-camera."

Yes it does.. it crops the footage and stretches it.. as does the DVX squeeze mode, DVC squeeze, MX500 widescreen, yadda yadda u knwo where im goin..
it may be internal, but its not "true" widescreen at full resolution.. Pana may have added and interpolated upsampling routine to retain pixel count (simialr to the XL2s downsampling, which i doubt), but its still not the raw footage such as found in the PDX10

Guy Bruner · August 29th, 2004, 12:39 PM

Peter,
The GS400 has "true" widescreen. It takes an 1152x646 footprint off the CCDs and makes it 720x480 without zooming at 1.2121 pixel width to height . Each widescreen frame has 740,000 pixels. Please see the illustration below from Panasonic.jp website

GS400 Widescreen

Tommy Haupfear · August 29th, 2004, 01:00 PM

Peter, Guy is correct and many cams have 16:9 that is identically achieved as the PDX10. In fact the Optura Xi is even better in this regard (resolution).

Not to mention the GS400 has the same CCD and pixel arrangement as the PDX10. 1/4.7" 1070k per CCD.

Your information is a little dated as far as widescreen is concerned.

Carlos E. Martinez · August 29th, 2004, 01:04 PM

It's a pity Babelfish does not translate all the symbols.

Technical writing seems to be very difficult to translate accurately.

There are a lot of things I don't quite understand in this apparent comparison between GS100 and GS400.

It would be better if they compared the GS400 with the DVC30 or DVX100.

Carlos

Peter Jefferson · August 29th, 2004, 10:13 PM

i stand corrected, obviously they changed the spec...

groovy

Joe Carney · August 30th, 2004, 12:09 PM

Peter, the MX500 doesn't crop, but the ntsc version (DV953) does.

Peter Jefferson · September 2nd, 2004, 06:00 AM

BAH!!!!!!!
GGGGGGGGRRRRRRRRRR PANASONIC NOT HAPPY DUDE!!!!!

bloody hell.. the buggers are stil on the boat docked somewher einon this godforsaken planet and i have an urgent shoot in 10 days..

so u knwo what i did??

I bought another DVX100a.. ;)

fuggin over 2 grand difference for an extra quart CCD and shorter zoom... ehhhh.....

Tommy Haupfear · September 2nd, 2004, 07:46 AM

Quote:

over 2 grand difference for an extra quart CCD and shorter zoom... ehhhh.....

Well, you get a little more than just larger CCDs and a shorter zoom. :)

Mike Sakovski · September 2nd, 2004, 08:22 AM

I just checked out CNET and in 3chip cam group they rave bout DVC30, made it second to only DVX100(A), outperforming both GL2 and VX2K..
go figure, rite Peter? )

Mike Sakovski · September 2nd, 2004, 08:46 AM

the DVC 30 seems to be such a good cam too bad my other half wouldnt let me have it cuz its all black. On this note i gotta admit Pana was rite bout not bringing black GS400 to the NA, our women just hate the color )

Tommy Haupfear · September 2nd, 2004, 09:17 AM

Mike, are you saying that you didn't get a DVC30 because of your wife's color preference? :)

That always reminds me of a friend that lets his old entertainment center dictate what size TV he gets.

BTW - my wife liked my black imported GS100 and now my black/platinum DVX100A.

Peter Jefferson · September 3rd, 2004, 08:41 AM

heres somethign interesting, had a client come in today to show off a short movie he dis..

he was absolutely astounded at the DVC's workamnship and image quality.. he doesnt buy his cams, but hired outthe approproate one for teh job.. so he took a dvc30 and made this film, 3 days later he won 4 awards with it...

he was using cineflick and was running frame mode... we threw it up on the 56' Plasma and it does look quite incredible..

cmapred to a dvx, i can personally notice the difference between progressive and frame (progressive is ALOT sharper and feels more natural cinematically.. ie your subconcious thinks its watching somethign shot with a Panavision) but the loss in sharpness between the 2 was small. Very impressed with it, considerinng it sise.. but im still to get my hands on one fora real test..

my dvx100a came in today and ive been messing with that and comapring the side by side differences between it and the original model..
Depending on the dvc, im seriosuly thinking about selling my old 100 and goin for the dvc, as size is a huge factor.. in the meantim, im prolly gonna hire out the 100... im rambling now so ill shut up

September 2nd, 2004, 08:22 AM	#26
Mike Sakovski Regular Crew Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: nj, usa Posts: 65	Pana DVC30 CNet rating I just checked out CNET and in 3chip cam group they rave bout DVC30, made it second to only DVX100(A), outperforming both GL2 and VX2K.. go figure, rite Peter? )

August 29th, 2004, 06:34 AM	#16
Peter Jefferson Inner Circle Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Aus Posts: 3,884	huh?? this is all wierd.. re: DVC30 resolution quality is running the same algorythms as the GS400, with the inclsusion of a 12bit RGB Processor... Sure the GS may have a higher pixel count, however those pixels need alot more light to penetrate due to the physical size of them being smal, the surface area is alot smaller. as for configuability, the GS and DVC30 are incomparable, they are 2 very different cameras. as for the PDX10, its still the only miniDV cam to run TRUE 16:9 with no deterioration in quality, the XL2 doesnt even work in this manner, as the XL2 downsamples the captured image to a resolution pixel count even lower than the DVX100 As for the questions - 1. Saturation - camcorderinfo revew indicates that colors on DVC arent as saturated compared to GS400. Can you achive GS satration level manually adjusting DVC? ((yes, but u have to remember that these reviews are usually an ill informed source with a day or so of the reviewer having a fiddle with the cam. The only way to trully compare is to run a side by side comparison AT THE SAME TIME, ie have both cameras rolling at once. To answer ur question though, the DVC can have its colour as well as other factors such as master pedestal, phase shifting, temperature etc etc etc.. these can be set into a scene file)) 2. Cinegamma - can you use MovieLike setting in 60i/4:3? In your opinion which cam has better cinegamma - DVC or GS? ((apparently the gamma curve is the same.. according to spec anyway.. but the built in ND and glass quality will obviously give the DVC a better finished look. Only the DVX/a allows for an adjsutment of Cinegamma TYPES.. )) 3. Frame mode - after reading all the posts here and everywere else im still confused - is it true 30fps on DVC, or double frames recorded in 60fs, just like on 953/GS400? Which of the two cams has smoother frame mode? ((Frame mode is the interpolation of both fields.. basically the 2 frames are blended as one.. thats NOT to say theyre progressive as these CCDs are not. Its all in cam Software which does this, and by the looks and widespread use of this feature, its more than likely the same across the DVC and GS.. As for smoother frame mode... theyre pretty much identical, so the only way to get this effect in the truest sense is to go for a native progressive CCD like the DVX or XL2)) 4. Is it true that DVC 's lenses r wider and therefore it would have more horizonal coverage than GS (in the context of DVC30's wider lenses vs GS400's HQ WS)? ((yes.. much wider.. .7 wide i think from memory.. and the 16x zoom + the 1.5 digital adjsutment offers a 20x digital zoom (ie 16 optical + 4 digital with virtually no obviouis loss in quality) but the lense is wide.. much like the dvx.. as for high quality 16:9, u can get anamorphic widescreen adapters for the DVC filter size. Im using a 16:9 anamorphic adapter for teh dvx and its superb, full res, no cropping, brilliant wideangles.. U can prolly find a similar lense for the GS)) 5. I read in the DVC30's PAL manual that it 's got 2 image stabilization modes - the 'reglar' mode and on top of that additional hand shake sabilization mode? Do NTSC models have the same '2 lines of defense' and how much does this 'duo IS' acually improve stabilization? never hear dof the 2... can u give me apage number on teh manual?? i DO know that both the GS and DVC have optical stabilisers.. but the DVC is running the same Gyro mechanism of the DVX. (hence the tapping when u tilt the cam) one thing on the GS, is that in picture mode, it runs a Mega optical Image stabiliser.. very stable, but only used for stills...

August 29th, 2004, 07:52 AM	#18
Peter Jefferson Inner Circle Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Aus Posts: 3,884	"I'm confused by this statement. There are plenty of MiniDV cams with true 16:9. The GS400, PC350, and Optura Xi come to mind first." actaully they dont.. they crop 12.5% top and bottom then stretch the footage.. Total loss of 25% the higher the pixel count in the cam (ie gs400) the better it will look, but its still not native.. the PDX10 DOESNT do this.. it uses its full CCD pixel capacity.. its well documented with many reviews as well as projects (and bradcast use) opting to use these cams until a better alternative is made available.. "The GS400 offers a wider angle of view in 16:9 and has no vertical zooming to achieve its true 16:9 in-camera." Yes it does.. it crops the footage and stretches it.. as does the DVX squeeze mode, DVC squeeze, MX500 widescreen, yadda yadda u knwo where im goin.. it may be internal, but its not "true" widescreen at full resolution.. Pana may have added and interpolated upsampling routine to retain pixel count (simialr to the XL2s downsampling, which i doubt), but its still not the raw footage such as found in the PDX10

August 29th, 2004, 12:39 PM	#19
Guy Bruner Major Player Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Ashford, AL Posts: 937	Peter, The GS400 has "true" widescreen. It takes an 1152x646 footprint off the CCDs and makes it 720x480 without zooming at 1.2121 pixel width to height . Each widescreen frame has 740,000 pixels. Please see the illustration below from Panasonic.jp website GS400 Widescreen

August 29th, 2004, 01:00 PM	#20
Tommy Haupfear Wrangler Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Greenville, SC Posts: 1,415	Peter, Guy is correct and many cams have 16:9 that is identically achieved as the PDX10. In fact the Optura Xi is even better in this regard (resolution). Not to mention the GS400 has the same CCD and pixel arrangement as the PDX10. 1/4.7" 1070k per CCD. Your information is a little dated as far as widescreen is concerned.

August 29th, 2004, 01:04 PM	#21
Carlos E. Martinez Trustee Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Rio de Janeiro, Brasil Posts: 1,138	It's a pity Babelfish does not translate all the symbols. Technical writing seems to be very difficult to translate accurately. There are a lot of things I don't quite understand in this apparent comparison between GS100 and GS400. It would be better if they compared the GS400 with the DVC30 or DVX100. Carlos

August 29th, 2004, 10:13 PM	#22
Peter Jefferson Inner Circle Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Aus Posts: 3,884	i stand corrected, obviously they changed the spec... groovy

August 30th, 2004, 12:09 PM	#23
Joe Carney Inner Circle Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Centreville Va Posts: 1,828	Peter, the MX500 doesn't crop, but the ntsc version (DV953) does.

September 2nd, 2004, 06:00 AM	#24
Peter Jefferson Inner Circle Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Aus Posts: 3,884	BAH!!!!!!! GGGGGGGGRRRRRRRRRR PANASONIC NOT HAPPY DUDE!!!!! bloody hell.. the buggers are stil on the boat docked somewher einon this godforsaken planet and i have an urgent shoot in 10 days.. so u knwo what i did?? I bought another DVX100a.. ;) fuggin over 2 grand difference for an extra quart CCD and shorter zoom... ehhhh.....

September 2nd, 2004, 08:46 AM	#27
Mike Sakovski Regular Crew Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: nj, usa Posts: 65	the DVC 30 seems to be such a good cam too bad my other half wouldnt let me have it cuz its all black. On this note i gotta admit Pana was rite bout not bringing black GS400 to the NA, our women just hate the color )

September 2nd, 2004, 09:17 AM	#28
Tommy Haupfear Wrangler Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Greenville, SC Posts: 1,415	Mike, are you saying that you didn't get a DVC30 because of your wife's color preference? :) That always reminds me of a friend that lets his old entertainment center dictate what size TV he gets. BTW - my wife liked my black imported GS100 and now my black/platinum DVX100A.

September 3rd, 2004, 08:41 AM	#29
Peter Jefferson Inner Circle Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Aus Posts: 3,884	heres somethign interesting, had a client come in today to show off a short movie he dis.. he was absolutely astounded at the DVC's workamnship and image quality.. he doesnt buy his cams, but hired outthe approproate one for teh job.. so he took a dvc30 and made this film, 3 days later he won 4 awards with it... he was using cineflick and was running frame mode... we threw it up on the 56' Plasma and it does look quite incredible.. cmapred to a dvx, i can personally notice the difference between progressive and frame (progressive is ALOT sharper and feels more natural cinematically.. ie your subconcious thinks its watching somethign shot with a Panavision) but the loss in sharpness between the 2 was small. Very impressed with it, considerinng it sise.. but im still to get my hands on one fora real test.. my dvx100a came in today and ive been messing with that and comapring the side by side differences between it and the original model.. Depending on the dvc, im seriosuly thinking about selling my old 100 and goin for the dvc, as size is a huge factor.. in the meantim, im prolly gonna hire out the 100... im rambling now so ill shut up