How good is the HDC-TM700 (for professional use)
 

How well will this camera be suited for this professional shooting? I looked at some raw native footage and it looked pretty good to my eyes. I put it into Premiere Pro CS5 and it played back without problems. However, I would like to see how the codec holds when it is really put to the test (and in Low Light).

I currently own a Canon XL-H1 with an Audio Technica wireless system, videolight and Rode NTG-2 / NT3 microphones. However, I notice that the size of the whole kit is large and bulky, so there are a lot of things I cannot shoot. I also have a Panasonic traveller cam with AVCHD lite movie mode and it beats my Canon XL-H1 in low-light. It simply sees where my Canon XL-H1 cannot see anymore.

So I have been thinking lately and I am considering smaller and cheaper cams because technology simply moves to fast and I don't want to invest $7,000 and upwards in a new cam all the time. I shoot documentaries about people's lives that end up on DVD and the web, not in the cinema. I do a lot of interviews, and I like the idea to have two or more camera's setup so I have more editing options and can focus more on the interview. And to be honest, the quality of these consumer cams is really impressive nowadays. And I like these small cams more and more because you can get into small spaces, mount them on your bike etcetera... all things you can't do easily with a Canon XL-H1 size camera.

My main questions are:
- How well do the manual controls work
- Is it easy to convert 1080p50 footage to 1080p25 (because the customer can't view 1080p50 and I have read that the vertical resolution and motion is superior in the p50 mode.
- How good is the cinema mode; do you lose manual controls in this mode?
- How good is the LCD for focussing? What options assist focus?
- Is the footage easy to grade and mix with the footage of other cams?
- How good is the sensivity in low-light?
- Rolling Shutter?
- Can you create in camera custom presets / profiles with settings like sharpening/color/saturation etc.)?

I am also looking at DSLR camera's but there are some things I dislike about them (4GB file size limit, focussing, artifacts, rolling shutter).

All feedback is greatly appreciated.

Better than any other consumer video camera. I use the HS700 to film long format medical/university lectures, and the image quality and low-light ability is excellent for a consumer camera.

Not bad. My only real complaints are:

1- You cannot use the GAIN unless the lens aperture is wide-open, which means that the exposure will change when you zoom when GAIN is active. ( so limited low-light zooms )

2- Aperture changes a little abruptly when I am trying to finesse the exact exposure of a shot. I did one shoot on a sunny-cloudy day and had to keep riding the aperture during the shoot, and my aperture corrections were not very subtle.

The superior performance comes from watching a HD video at 50P ( or 60P ), so converting the footage back to 25P ( or 24P ) offers no advantage, you might as well just shoot at 25P / 24P.

This is what Panasonic calls 24P / 25P, and it works really well provided that you have software to extract the 24P / 25P video stream from the 50i / 60i wrapper. I use the CineForm NEO SCENE software to do this.

Same as any other small LCD. The focus-assist definitely helps.

Panasonic has a very recognizable look, so mixing with other Panasonic cameras works best. ( to my eye, Panasonic has more saturated colour, but requires that you manually set the colour balance as the auto-balance is not that good )

Excellent. Better than any other consumer camera in it's class.

Not a problem. Fast moving footage looks good.

I've never tried, so I'm not even sure if it's possible to save presets that can be loaded like Panasonic's prosumer cameras. ( I have my doubts on this one )

DLSR video looks very nice, but it is a lot more work than shooting with a camera designed mainly for video work. Panasonic will be revealing the new GH-2 DSLR tomorrow at Photokina 2010, and this may turn out to be the best DSLR for video work yet. But keep in mind that DSLR cameras are great for high-end shorter shoots, where you can take the time to get things right. They are not the kind of camera that you can just run out the door with, and expect to get great footage with.

...Right now I use the Panasonic HS700 for long-format event shoots, and a Panasonic HMC-150 for higher quality ( better paid ) shoots. I will probably buy the Panasonic GH-2 DSLR camera when it comes out next month, to use for short documentary / indy / corporate film shoots. And then in late Spring 2011 I will buy the Panasonic AF100 to replace the GH-2. ( the same lenses should work on both cameras )

I bought the Panasonic TM700 to replace my Canon HV30, I decided to stop using tape. I also bought the Canon 7D last year, so have been shooting with that for nearly 12 months. My main use is stock video and I use the camcorder for run and gun and also stealth shooting.

The Panasonic is a great replacement to the HV30, I'm only shooting 60p and the image quality is much better than the HV30. Low light is much better and the camera is faster to use.

I like the feature that the TM700 is almost instant on, you open the LCD door and the camcorder switches on and is instantly available to shoot. It is small on this last trip I had the camera in my cargo pants pocket, so had the camera for interior plane shots, the stabilizer works great. The camera is light enough to mount on a clamp with a ball head (cheap plastic Ebay item), so I was able to clamp the camera to railings etc, without the need for a tripod sometimes.

Everything I shoot is manual the focusing is good because of the size of sensor and lens, everything is in focus pretty much, it won't do that shallow depth of field which is why I have the Canon 7D.

I had an auxiliary wide lens with my HV30 which I have kept and use on the TM700 as it is wide but not by much, I use the Raynox 0.66X with a step ring.

Spare battery is a must and the third party ones wont work because Panasonic has a chip inside their batteries to communicate with the camera.

Norman do you ever intercut your 7D footage with the TM700? If so how does it look?

What NLE do you use? I have FCP7 and I'm wondering how you encode the TM700. I use MPEG Streamclip to encode the 7D footage and it would be great if I could use the same workflow.

How good is the audio and do you use the audio from the TM700 for your production audio? Since you have a 7D you know why I'm asking that question. I was thinking about getting the Zoom H4N, but I know I'll forget to roll audio so I don't really like the idea of separate audio.

Is the only difference between the TM700 and the HS700 the 240GB hard drive? The specs state that the video format is MPEG AVC/H.264, is that AVCHD or H.264? And is it selectable?

Thanks

Hi Chuck,

Sound is no good, you do need an external for productions, the other model of 700 is a internal HD. I don't intercut my footage as I only sell clips. I use Sony Vegas 8 and I use Cineform Neoscene for both the 7D and TM700, you can get it for $99 at Videoguys. I like the codec they use and it makes a 4.2.2 .avi file which looks great. I tried Streamclip, but that program only uses codecs that are already on your computer, whereas Neo has it's own codec and works like a charm.

The TM700 does have a limited internal HD as well and it does timelapse.

Thanks Norman.

I'm on a Mac so if I can encode the TM700 footage using StreamClip to ProRes that would be great.

I didn't know about the timelapse, that will also be very useful for this project.

Can you set manual audio levels for the external microphone? I have a XLR to 3,5 adapter cable which I would like to use to record audio of my microphones (phantom + battery powered option)?

I believe so, from the manual notes on the page discussing setting audio level i.e. the level meters referred to below
What I am curious about is the 1080i25 mode is 17Mbps whereas say Canon has 24Mbps. So for interlace DVD production, if I forego the 1080p50 mode as suggested above, there is a bit of sacrifice. I'm looking at best possible compact cam to augment Sony XDCAM EX as outlined here

EDIT: I edit on FCP, so Panasonic not much use - the 1080p50 is not part of the AVCHD spec supported, so the 17Mbps 1080i is a limiting factor potentially worse than all its 24Mbps competitors.

Mark Joseph,
It can be workable on Final Cut with the right software.
http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/panasoni...ml#post1576298

I'm not sure I understand what your saying. I use FCP and I was able to import footage from the TM700 using Log and transfer and it encoded it directly into ProRes LT. It was interlaced, are you saying it is not possible to get 24P out of the camera?

HDC-TM700 with Sony EX3 and Canon 7D?
 

This TM700 has now caught my eye because of it's 1080p50 capability - came in under my radar - but I'm starting to look for an eventual replacement for my trusty (and still fully working Sony HC1) for B Cam stuff to my Sony EX3 and and Canon 7D. Mostly corporate and business web video work - but some family stuff - for those times when I want a small highly portable run-n-gun "prosumer" camera. Much as I love my 7D one thing a DSLR is no good at is run-n-gun!

It must shoot 1080p.

Starting to look at the options. No rush to buy yet but I just hate capturing tape nowadays so that really rules out the otherwise well acclaimed (but now looking a little dated) Canon HV30 and HV40. The Sony CX550V looked promising, good in low light, some good manual controls, until I realised it will only do 50i. The "pro" version of this cam (HXR-MC50E) just looks like a rip-off as all you get is a hood, bigger battery and 2 years warranty - but the same basic cam underneath, i.e still no true 25p, for many £100s more. The Canon HF S21 looked promising too - except for the interlaced artifacts exhibited in it's 25p progressive output that I've just read about on another thread.

This little Panny caught my eye as it seems a highly capable little cam for around £800 UK price (reputable dealers). I'm amazed it's not getting more notice on here - unless I missed a fatal flaw?

Workflow for me is mostly FCP6 on 2009 8-Core Mac Pro (but I also do stuff in Vegas 9E on a 2010 i7 Windows box too). It sounds like it's a pain dealing with 1080p50 but I'm already well used to transcoding 7D footage to ProRes. Just how easy is it to get those razor sharp 1080p50 clips I'm reading about incorporated into a 1080p25 timeline (with my XDCAM and 7D footage) as I'm still entirely not clear on this aspect?

I've never owned a Panny cam before so one more question. How well will it's "look" cut with Sony EX3 and/or Canon 7D (with a lot of the 7D's settings "dialed back") regarding colour saturation etc.

Sorry it's a bit of a ramble but I'm more confused than informed right now about this little Panny. Thanks in advance!

>> The Canon HF S21 looked promising too - except for the interlaced artifacts exhibited in it's 25p progressive output that I've just read about on another thread

Not to derail the thread, but are you sure about that? 24P in the US version of the HFS21 is true progressive so I would be surprised if 25P wasn't also. With earlier versions of of the Canons, like my own HF10, many folk complained about interlacing artifacts, but those were primarily a product of improper avchd decoding, not the raw footage.

Hi Graham. It was from post 3 in this thread (which I now realise was about the Canon HF11, not a HFS21, exhibiting problems in it's progressive mode). Sorry for the mistake.

http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/canon-vi...onal-work.html

Not to dash anyone's hopes, but the TM700 does not shoot 24p. It shoots 1080/60p or in HA/HG/HX/HE 1080/60i. Sorry, no 30p or 24p. With these exceptions it is a very powerful device. I'm sorry to say my HMC40 has rarely been used since I purchased the TM700.

After six months use, my favorite features are its size and lighter .98lb weight (it can fit in your pocket), 35mm f1.5 lens (wider and faster than HMC40), instant on/off, and larger much brighter in sunlight LCD.

Using Window 7, Vegas Pro 9, Vegas Movie Studio HD 10, and even Windows Live Movie Maker, the TM700 clips can be edited natively.

For those with needs that fit this camera's abilities, it will produce great images.

From Camcorderinfo: The HDC-TM700 also has a Digital Cinema 24p mode, which was featured on all of Panasonic's HD camcorders from last year. This mode produces a film-like aesthetic, but we don't think it works as well as the 24p modes offered on the Canon HF S21.

Good find Graham. There is that, but the clips "Digital Cinema" produce are strange birds. They are definitely interlaced and depending on how you read their properties are 60i or 29.97i. Not exactly sure what Panasonic is doing with this feature, but it isn't the 24p that people are hoping for.

We might be better shooting 60p and rendering to 30p or 24p.

I was referring to the 28Mbps progressive 1080p50/60 mode? The 1080i modes can be log & transferred - but the highest Panasonic does is 17 Mbps compared to Canon 1080i 24Mbps.

Of course you can do an conversion using ClipWrap or Mpegstream clip --> ProRes then import into FCP.

I was wonder if the 17mbps looks worst than 24mpbs interlace of other HD cams - reportedly not from a little I've read.

What Panasonic is doing with 24p is no different than what in the HV20/30 or a GH1. 24p is put inside a 60i stream. Basically 24p with pull down added. NeoScene can fix that and output a true 24p stream. It real 24p once you do that but I do wish is was more like the HV40 or the HF S21 in which you get the 24p stream from the very beginning. With all that said, Nothing in this price range beets the quality that you get in 1080 60p.

Does anyone know if the TM700 image quality will be basically the same as the new GH2? I'm thinking about getting one of each for the best of both worlds... but only if I can intercut the footage.

In good light, the TM700 will be sharper, and of course with greater depth of field. And the GH2 doesn't have a 1080P60 mode. But overall yes, I would expect them to intercut OK.

Hard to get much from this clip, but may be of some interest: YouTube - GH2-test shooting vs GH1 and TM750.mov

Getting one of each is something that I've been thinking about these past few day. My mind was all set in selling the GH1 and getting the GH2 but I keep thinking about how I'll feel much better shooting events with the TM700 in good lighting. Especially in 1080 60p, you get an image that is much sharper, much more detailed and it doesn't have the slight moire and aliasing issues of the GH2 and never mind comparing the TM700 to a real DSLR since the difference in picture side effects are gigantic.

I originally bought the GH1 because I'm into photography, video and thought about the low light capabilities. The reason I wanted to upgrade is because of the significantly faster auto focusing especially in the photo mode and the 2.6x and 3.9x respectively in the 1080p/i and 720p modes.

Thinking about it really gives me a headache. I have college loans to pay off and recently just bought a nice computer and an HD TV. Still, it will be used for projects that sometimes comes up so it wont be that bad. I'll be getting the best of both worlds and for some projects, it'll look better having 2 HD cameras than 1. I've done concerts with as little as 1 or 2 camera and this way, I'd be able to easily have at least 2 or more angle all the time.

The good news is that the TM700 does have an attractive price of $750. Amazon has recently lowered the price of the stripped down version, the SD600 for only $500. That's really an excellent price but for my case, I'd be too annoyed over the lack of focusing ring, viewfinder and it would be nice to have a mic input. I like having as much freedom as I possibly can which is why I better see a lot of video modes as well as external features or I'll almost have no interest although if the SD600 were to ever get to $400, I'd be extremely tempted. I don't think that would happen this year since that camcorder already received a huge price drop but I'm not going to be surprised if the TM700 gets to be $700. WIth the release of the SDT750, you really never know and besides if Amazon is willing to sell the SD600 for $500 than the chances of Amazon lowering the price of the TM700 to $700 before Christmas seams likely. At least I hope.

Norman. I have a hacked GH1 and an HV30. I have been thinking on upgrading the canon to the tm700 as I find my hv30 to have much less detail than the hv30. Is the tm700 much sharper than the HV30? How much better is it in low light? I do lots of weddings and lowlight is really important to me!

I am also looking into a HDC-SD700 (EU model with no on-board flash) and GH2 combination. I really like the image of the HDC-TM700, especially the 50p 28mbps quality.

What I am wondering... if I want to mix 50p with 25p, how well does that go? And how does 50p look on YouTube, Vimeo or downconverted to a SD DVD?

Remember that DVDs are inherently interlaced. If you are familiar with avisynth, here's a script for 720p50 to PAL DVD ...

AVISource("whatversource.avi")
LanczosResize(720,576)
AssumeTFF()
SeparateFields()
SelectEvery(4,0,3)
Weave()

Have you used footage from the 700 mixed in with the 150? If so, how does it match up?

Yes, the TM700 is significantly sharper (1080P 60P vs. HDV) and better in low light (less noise, greater sensitivity) than the HV20/30 series of cameras.

I own a couple of HV20s and used the heck out of them for years. But the TM700 is better in just about every way. It's a couple of design generations beyond the HV20 series.

I'm keen on picking up this camera as a B or C cam - was hoping to stretch to a new Canon XF100 or XF105 but the initial pricing info looks like it's going to be ridiculous - so unless I land a big contract....;-)

So I'm back looking at sensible, highly portable and not too expensive "prosumer" camcorders like the Panasonic TM700 (or it's much cheaper sister SD700) and the Canon HFS20 and 21 or 200. Some questions:

1. I've read that the fan on the TM700 can be pretty annoying to some (I doubt I'd use any on camera audio for anything other than family stuff) but others say they hardly hear/notice it. Any comments about this aspect?
2. Also, is the low-res LCD really as bad as some say - how do you find it?

Thank you for any input.

I noticed the fan noise on the very first sequence I shot, which was indoors in near silence. Four weeks on and I haven't noticed the fan being on or its noise being recorded so I don't consider it a problem, unless I'm recording in near silence, in which case handling noises would be a problem anyway. For serious sound I'd use a digital multitracker.

A full resolution LCD monitor would be wasted on such a small camcorder, and you'd need to carry a magnifier to see it. The monitor on the TM700 is good enough for framing and checking white balance and the focus assist functions throws a blue outline around objects in focus. I recently used focus assist to pull focus from an icicle hanging on a cobweb to a full snowscape and back - it worked very well.

Some other observations:

The auto WB is sometimes slow to react initially and needs to be switched to manual override, but once auto WB gets a grip its very accurate.

The manual contol ring is very good at doing creep zooms.

Surround sound recordings are unexpectedly good when played back through a surround sound system.

While pro cameras have lots of controls and tweaks that you have to master to get the best results, the TM700 has lots of auto modes and manual overrides that you have to be aware of in order to get the best out of the camcorder. Example: the Spotlight auto mode will correctly expose faces under stage lighting without burnout. It actually does much better than my Sony Z1 in spotlight mode or in full manual mode.

Very interesting and informative Tony. Thank you!

Just some clarification, the LCD is 3". By comparison, it's larger than the 2.7" on the Canon XH-A1 prosumer camera which also has a low res 237k pixel count. On the other hand, the Sony EX1 LCD is 3.5" and has 921k pixels. So the statement about needing a magnifying glass to see the screen is confusing. The screen is plenty large to function but I think the cost of a hi-res LCD would dramatically change the attractiveness and viability of the product for consumers and professionals. If it were more expensive, you'd lose consumers and pros alike. If it were more, it starts competing with the MFT video DSLRs.

For this camera to be "for professional use", the LCD should at least provide an adequate means for composition, focus assist and exposure. It's hard to imagine any modern camcorder not handling composition but a low res LCD is garbage for focus assist and exposure.

I'm glad to hear it has peaking (the "blue outline around objects in focus") as the low res screen was a deal breaker for focus assist but the specs page does not list Peaking on the TM700, just the ST750.

For exposure, again, a low res screen is inadequate. However, the tm700 at leas has zebras which should be fine enough but there's also a histogram which is great. There's also a meter in the center of the HUD.

I would never use auto white balance. Can you set the white balance by temperature or with a white card?

This is a useful page of features and explanation but it doesn't specify much about WB.
HDC-SDT750 | HD Camcorder | Panasonic Global

Here's what I've read in another thread:

"One nice TM700 feature I haven't seen discussed elsewhere is peaking. The camera does include a peaking function when switched to manual focus. Panasonic calls it "manual focus assist." This really helps achieve critical focus with the 260k pixel LCD screen. The peaking color is blue; I prefer yellow, but will gladly settle for blue."
http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/panasoni...hdc-tm700.html

I'm not sure if that's any different than what's on the SDT750/TM750.

Thanks for the extra info and the product links etc. I've now read pretty much all of that along with practically every camera/camcorder website product review and every customer review of the TM700 and SD700 I can find on the amazon USA and UK sites...about 80 odd (yeah, I know, I should get out more! (currently, I have a cold so spent most of yesterday in front of a log fire with the MBP - that's my excuse!)

I'm pretty sure I'm going to pick one of these up early in the New Year (after CES in early Jan... just in case Panasonic announce a killer replacement that I might want to wait for).... and after I get paid for a few jobs I've just just finished. The feature/perfomance/price/portabability combination seems way too good to ignore.

One thing. I still can't find out if it's possible to white balance these cams with a card (something Les asked also) or can you set a Kelvin temp manually? Anyone know? (The AWB does seem unreliable/laggy from my armchair reading).

All it says in the (otherwise extensive) official Panasonic product info that Les linked to is this - is "White Set" what I hope it might be?:

"Select from Auto, Indoor, Outdoor and White Set according to the location, weather or type of lighting. You'll always get the best possible coloring even if the light source changes"

Hello Andy,

Yes, it is possible to manually set White Balance with the TM700. It is actually a very simple process. There is no ability to choose Kelvin by number though.

I think you'll be surprized at the power and portability of this unit.

Thanks Dan!

One other question (sorry, I've been reading too much...). The Panasonic blurb suggests that the TM700 records onto it's 32GB internal memory and then switches automatically to the SDHC card "so you don't miss anything etc." What about if I want to do it the other way round - set it record to the SDHC card, then let it switch to the internal memory (if the card gets full). Is this possible in a menu option?

I've lots of fast 16GB SDHC cards already in my EX3 kit (in KxS and KxT adapters along with my regular SxS cards, and others around the place) - just trying to establish the benefit of the TM700 over the SD700 as the ONLY difference I can see is 32GB of internal flash memory on the former - otherwise they are absolutely identical. Sure, I well understand the limitations of a cam that has only one card slot and no internal memory like the SD700 but this will rarely impact my use of it. Right now in the UK you can get a SD700 for about £590 compared to about £750-810 (from reputable dealers) for the TM700. Seems a VERY expensive way of buying 32GB of flash memory (although I'm sure it's nice to have as those 1080p50 files will eat up space relatively quickly at 28Mbps).

And another Question. I've read a few complain that the "power brick" in the AC lead is not multi-voltage (i.e 110-240V, 60/50Hz, e.g. like the Sony ones are - or any camera I've ever had, laptop etc.) but "fixed" to the current of the country of purchase. Is this true? I am hoping it's "continental travel friendly" as one of the big advantages of a cam this size is that I'll take it everywhere....(unlike my EX3!)

Still find it amazing that this cam has zebras, blue peaking (manual focus assist), 3 sec pre-record buffer (is this only TM700 I wonder - as surely that needs internal memory?) and lots of other cutting edge features in such a tiny and relatively affordable package! The quality of the 1080p50/60 video I've seen (including good work by you Dan) looks really excellent too.

I've though of this since I also want to pick up a TM700 right after I get my GH2 to replace the GH1 but since the TM750 and the SDT750 came out not too long ago which adds a better stabilizer over the TM700, I don't think we'll see a new model until April at the very earliest, possibly May.

Hi Andy,

I've tested but never actually used the internal 32GB. I prefer SD cards for faster off-loading. Though it is nice to have the internal memory in the event all my SD cards fail or are lost, I'd skip the option if I had it to do again.

The charger that came with my TM700 is indeed "110-240V, 60/50Hz".

I'm sad to say, though I own the HMC40, it hasn't been off the shelf since purchasing the TM700.

Good luck with your decision...

Perfect - excellent information! My decision is made. Now either the SD700 or TM700 are definitely on my 'BUY' list - just waiting for the best offer I can find in the next few weeks. It will give me so much capability for the price of just yet another lens for my Canon 7D. I'll get one big (genuine) Panasonic battery and probabaly a ND filter and/or polariser as well I think.

Further out, I may still pick up a Canon XF100 in the spring ...if the price gets more sensible by then (from what's currenly predicted this side of the pond) and only if the images come out as good as I might hope for a single 1/3 inch chipped cam. Or I might wait until the summer (? maybe?) for a Canon 5DMkIII instead of the XF100 - assuming Canon is going to leapfrog the Panasonic GH2's new lead in DSLR for video sometime next year - no one knows for sure yet - but that discussion is for another forum section, not here, and I'll not worry about those decisons until then.

Anyway, thanks everyone for all the information to fill the holes/ambiguity in the stuff I've read on the TM700 et al. Can't wait to try this little cam out and seeing how I can make the 1080p50 workflow fit in with my Mac Pro/FCS and Win7 Vegas 9E systems and intercut with the EX3 and 7D.

You have talked me into buying the SD700
 

Hey guys
Great posts
You have talked me into buying the SD700
I am starting out in the video game and have been considering the panasonic SD700 (Australian equivelant of the TM700). As a camera I can learn from, I think it would be a great option which would allow me to start making some great video. It is also alot cheaper than other cameras such as the Sony Nex G10.

Cheers

Dave

At least we can get professional level slow motion out of it.
Here's a couple of videos:
It's best to download them.

Well if I had any doubts before about this cams capabilities then I certainly don't now. I like his choices of music too, fitted both films really well.