Micro Four Thirds - the start of low cost shallow DOF videography?
 

Olympus and Panasonic have today announced the specifications for a "micro four thirds" camera system. This system attempts to combine the sensor size and exchangable lens benefits of a four thirds SLR camera with compact-camera size factor. It is achieved by shortening the distance between lens and sensor by removing the mirror block and optical viewfinder.

Benefits include:

...

"Current Four Thirds lenses can be used with an adapter
Enables seamless switching between still and movie shooting"

Found on DPreview:
http://www.dpreview.com/news/0808/08...fourthirds.asp

If the quality of movie modes on premium compact photocams continues to increase, this system will be perfect for low-cost shallow depth of field (DOF) videography in an ultra compact package (sensor size: 18 x 13.5 mm, significantly larger than 2/3").

Enjoy,

Thomas

This is one thing well worth keeping an eye on. The lenses and systems would be perfect for video as well. We'll no doubt see more at photokina but there's a few sample photos floating around of a tradition lens vs the micro 4/3s version.

It wouldn't take much to use this sensor and lens system in a system designed for video rather than stills.

You can already see that the nikon D80 replacement the D90 is alledged to have recording of live view as a feature (this is a rumour at the moment). But it does highlight a convergence between SLR and video cameras.

cheers
paul

This is true, but a still camera is a still camera and a video camera is a video camera.

I would not want to use a still camera on a video shoot.

Canon would have the best chance of integration, but I think the end result would be too large for still work, and too small for video work imho.

Sure, a stills camera form factor isn't going to work very well, but use the same lens mount and sensor sizes in a different form factor and then we'd have something worth looking at?

cheers
paul

Tim,

while I won't dispute this at all, there is something that non of the consumer priced camcorders can do, which is done very well by entry level digital SLRs: Shallow depth of field for background blur. So far, you have to use a 35mm adapter to get shallow DOF which degrades the image (to a degree), creates light loss and increases the overall size dramatically. It also costs extra.

I would love to defocus backgrounds, but normally have to carry at least 6 lbs of gear to do it - usually in a very awkward form factor (video cam + adapter + lens). On holidays, this is rarely possible. If a usable 1280 by 720 p clip at 24p is created, I am happy to settle for a photo cam.

It will be interesting to see how the still world will force the hand of the video world.

Up until now, to get large enough chips to get shallow DOF in the video space one needs to spend tens of thousands of dollars.

And your correct, even more shallow DOF can be obtained by a $600 DSLR.

Not that DOF is everything, but chip size is very important to image quality.

The RED and the EX-1 have really put the video world on notice that a different way is coming and it does not cost as much as the old ways.

I will be watching this space as well, I just don't like the idea of still camera design in a video application.

Here we go
 

Wow, what a crazy market. Nikon D90, Canon 5D MK2 and now ...

"Panasonic has shown a prototype of an HD video micro Four Thirds camera."

over at DPreview.com:
Panasonic shows HD Micro Four Thirds prototype: Digital Photography Review

Seems everyone is joining the party.

Special about this one: This time actually called "video camera" (with stereo mike and dedicated record button).
Just happy my prognosis 6 weeks ago wasn't too far off. Nikon & Canon surprised me, though.

Yes... today... but a year from now? I wouldn't gamble on it.

Panasonic interview about the G1 and future HD version
Photokina Interview Series: Panasonic: Digital Photography Review
(Just incase some of you might not have seen this.)


Here’s an interesting quote:

"The new HD lens has a dedicated system for autofocus in movie video recordings, and the movement of the aperture is totally different for HD lenses; it has to be working continuously. This all takes time to develop. PMA [early March '09] is our target for the HD camera; that's the target anyway...[laughter] We've already displayed a mock up, but we have to exceed the performance and quality of the HD video modes already shown on new DSLR cameras."

The HD version looks very promising.

Has anyone heard anything more about this?
There are a number of articles about Panasonic showing a video capable prototype, complete with pictures.

Panasonic unveils video-capturing Lumix G prototype - Engadget

Panasonic shows HD Micro Four Thirds prototype: Digital Photography Review

As two examples.
One of my disappointments with CES was no furthur announcements from either Olympus or Panasonic about this.
To me micro 4/3 looks like a killer platform that Panasonic could use to build both an interchangable lens camera AND videocam family around.
With a big problem being how it might cannibalize their own current product line.
Or am I off base?

Yeah, as soon as the video world embraces silent movies and we shooters decide that holding a heavy camera and glass in front of us for long periods of time is far superior to putting a camera with XLR inputs on our shoulders.

I can drive a nail with an adjustable wrench but it really makes more sense to use a hammer doesn't it.

So you would rather have an xl-h1 over an hvx-200 or ex-1 because the xl-h1 has a shoulder pad? Bringing a separate audio recorder is something I wouldn't mind living with if could take full manual control of a DSLR while shooting.

I'm keen to see the HD movie camera as well. I'm dreaming of putting one of these in a water housing with something like an 8mm lens. Much easier to find manufacturers for the SLR housings, plus they're cheaper and smaller than say an FX7 with a 0.3x fisheye lens in a custom housing.

I wouldn't want one as a main camera, but as another tool in the kit.

What's interesting with the G1 (probably similar with the video version coming out), is that among the still frame sizes available,1920 x 1080 is one of the "official" sizes (the smallest). I don't know if still image characteristics are shared by the video output, but it could bold well for a good quality downscaling for the 1920 x 1080 video?

I wonder if they will limit the video to 720p. Already they offer this on some their point and shoots, including 24fps on the Lumix LX3. I think 720p @ 24fps is a good balance... converts easily in PAL land, and lets them use their current MJPEG compression at the same bitrate, where as 1080p would require them to implement a whole new format (AVCHD?).

seems I've read at dpreview it will be 1080i and avchd- we should have some more info in march- I'm holding off any camera purchases to see how the g1hd does- the g1 got a "highly recommended" at dpreview - whoever releases a $1000 dslr with good video implementation will cleanup the plate

Kurth, may I ask where you saw anything about more information in March?

Ok, I found it now. That's when PMA 2009 is: March 3-5, 2009

I saw the Panasonic demo of HD video captured by the coming G1HD at CES. Unfortunately, it looked horrible. It was blocky/splochy. I'm surprised they showed it.

Livevideo mode on the LCD itself was fine -- so it must be the encoder. Perhaps that's why a Pana rep mentioned getting the quality to be as good as the other DSLR.

The camera was also on display in a case. Other than the video quality it seems like a great camera. BUT -- unless the OIS is perfect, it is way too light.

I'm hoping for the best.

I saw that video too. I would be a bit more generous about the quality, but it definitely looked more consumer than pro. That said, we need to wait for production models before making a final judgment.

BTW, I talked with the rep for a while. He's a photo buff who owns higher end cameras. I shared with him my frustration about the 5D2's lack of manual controls and 24p. The rep was pretty confident that they won't make those mistakes.

A few interesting lens options would seem to be available http://photofan.jp/camera/html/uploa...93afaa7db7.jpg

http://www.digitalcamera.jp/html/Hot.../20mmF17-L.jpg

Lets hope the video quality is up to it.

Dan

I'm pretty keen to see this camera. Either way we'll know something come Tuesday. Since PMA starts on the 3rd, Tuesday is the day for them to issue a press release-- enough before the show to get reporters to stop by the booth, and yet close enough to the show to not be old news at the time.

So, if we hear nothing on Tuesday, I think the odds of the camera shipping soon go down. They might still make the announcement at the show-- and I bet we'll get some more info at the show anyway.

But I'm keeping my fingers crossed for a detailed announcement on Tuesday.

for anyone that saw the video at ces, did it look like they were using the whole sensor or just a cropped sensor for the video?

Most of the video that I saw was distant landscape footage shot from a slow panning tripod. I believe that they are using the full sensor, but couldn't be 100% sure from the footage.

If they didn't use the full sensor then the effective focal lengths of the lenses would be unusable .

Yeah, it seems from their statements about the camera in interviews that they are going to use the full sensor, and that the camera will probably shoot 1080p.

In an interview one of their guys said they were aware of other DSLRs that shot video and wanted to not have the limitations that the others have.

That's consistent with what I heard at CES.

This makes sense too. They don't have a tip-of-the-tongue brand name when it comes to interchangeable lens still cams, and 4/3rds has an uphill battle against 35mm. Rather than worrying about killing their pro video camera market, they're worried about gaining critical mass.

FWIW, this camera should be adaptable to any 35mm lens system-- since the focal distance is much shorter, there's a lot of room for an adapter to fit in there.

So, for anyone who already has lenses, they would just need to buy an adapter and thus preserve their lens investment.

I've already seen an adapter that goes to the Leica M mount lenses-- which are nice because they are rangefinder sized and thus smaller (and I hope) lighter than 35mm lenses. And apparently (according to Ken Rockwell) higher quality. Of course they aren't cheap.

That will be fine for telephoto, but you'll still want MFT lenses for the wide end. As I understand it, the sensor is half the size of a 35mm FF sensor. Your 24mm Nikon prime will have roughly a 50mm field of view.

The advantage is that by cropping the image, you'll get almost no light fall off, even a wide open apertures. The disadvantage is that you'll have twice the pixel density (in one dimension) of, say, the Canon 5D MkII. On the Canon, you can get great sharpness for HD with a modest lens. Lens sharpness will be twice as critical when you record 1080p with a MFT camera.

Theirs obviously going to be a huge price difference between the G HD and the 5D Mark II. Plus, the G HD is a heck of a lot smaller. Its really 2 different markets.

I can't argue with that.

In fact, the G HD might be the perfect B-cam for the 5D MkII video user. Slap on an adapter, and use your 35mm lenses with both. As long as you have a high quality ~12mm MFT lens for the G HD wide shots, you're set.

In fact, I'd want a MFT to Canon EF adaptor. You can then add an EF to Nikon adapter and use MFT, EF, or Nikon lenses, as desired.

My own 2 cents (and probably worth less) is:

1) The typical prospective u4/3rds customer is probably moving up from a point-n-shoot camera.
For that person comparisons to a Canon 5D Mark II are beside the point.
They were never budgeting close to $3K USD anyhow.
And even if they were, the current economy has probably put the kibosh on that.

2) It has the promise of having ~16mm equivalent size sensor. 17.3 x 13.0mm to quote from Panasonic's product page.
That's a nice improvement right there from 1/3". Me complain? You have got to be kidding.

3) If it has the same range of latitude that we see in the demo stills from the Panasonic G1, and at a small fraction of the price of a Canon 5D Mark II, it is going to take a lot for me NOT to get in line.

4) What will be key are:
a. What controls (full manual?), or not , does it provide.
b. Quality of the output? Latitude? Codec? Bitrate?
c. The TIME LENGTH of a shoot it will handle. To me the Achilles heel of the Canon 5D Mark II is its ~28 minute limit on a recording.

About MFT and the 5D not competing...

While that's true when you look at the price range, it wouldn't have been true for me. I really wanted the D90 to be my camera. And it was going to be a hard swallow to spend the $900. However, the pictures just weren't good enough in my book, due to the low bitrate M-JPEG codec, and the rolling shutter is pretty extreme. It was a sad day when I crossed it off my list.

I ended up getting the 5D. And, yes, $2,700 was an even harder swallow. But it was clear that the 5D could make images that you didn't need to make excuses for. Sure, I want manual control and 24p, but making short films for web and disc distribution, I can get Nikon lenses and live with the limitations.

Had an MFT solution been available, I would have considered that just as hard. If the wobble isn't too bad, and if the camera can take stunning shots, I'm all for it.

Keep in mind that I wasn't in the market at all for a still camera. Had I been, my budget would have been under $500.

For me, any DVSLR that can make beauty shots with a relatively large sensor is a contender, regardless of price. That said, I saw the images from the G HD at CES, and they had a consumer-grade look to them. But who knows? Maybe the production cameras will have refined compression and processing - maybe even removing all aliasing and keeping good resolution. And maybe it will have a true uncompressed HDMI output. Now that would be killer!

A cheaper camera with GREAT video can definitely compete with the 5D MkII. The question is, can the 5D MkII compete with a cheaper camera if it has a fast sensor, no aliasing, manual controls, a great codec, and an uncompressed output? Possibly not - in the video market, anyway.

In both situations the camera sensor is much higher resolution than the final 1080p image, and so both cameras are downrezzing from the sensor to produce a frame in the HD format. My naive perspective is that this increases sharpness over what you'd get with a full rez still photo, as more sites are used to produce a single pixel in the downrezzed frame. You're right that the focal factor for the MFT is 2:1, while the Canon is full frame.

What I'd like for you to elaborate on, though, is why lens sharpness is twice as critical. Maybe I'm being simplistic but I don't think of lenses as having a "sharpness". I can imagine a lens using plastic rather than glass where the most in-focus you can get is still pretty out of focus-- and I guess quality of glass could cause a similar type issue comparing two glass lenses.

Thus, you would have a less sharp image with a complex super zoom than, say a prime. But its always seemed to me that I could bring whatever subject into sharp focus, and this is using cameras across quality ranges and technology levels. So this quality difference, if I'm understanding you, is something I have difficulty perceiving?

I'm planning on shooting with the 14-140 zoom, and the 20mm f1.8 prime. I've been looking at other lenses, looking for fast primes, knowing that the 2-1 factor essentially makes these telephoto primes. But that's kinda nice. If need be, I can maybe have a normal (the 20mm MFT) and then an effective 70mm with a Leica prime and an effective 100mm with a 35mm normal lens.

But at that point- its quite possible I'm in the price range of the 5D mk II. Though I think of lenses as an investment and camera bodies as something that change every couple of years.

Anyway, I'd appreciate some advice and clarification on the lens sharpness issue.

Hi Liza,

This page gives more details than I could ever type: Optical resolution - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Here's a better resource: http://www.abelcine.com/articles/ima...dtv_camera.pdf

It comes down to this: if a focused lens smears a dot of light much beyond one pixel, then you lose resolution. Since HD cameras often have the same sized sensors as SD cameras, yet more pixels, the pixels get smaller, and the lens resolution becomes more critical. There's been a lot of discussion here at DVinfo and other sites about the need for HD lenses vs. SD lenses.

Anyway, with the 5D, the pixels are relatively large, so even modest 35mm lenses are adequate for video (resolution-wise). Lenses for the 5D are more critical when shooting 21 MP photos, since the pixels are 1/3rd the size. With a Micro 4/3rds camera shooting 1080p, the pixels on the sensor are half the size of 1080p pixels from the 5D, so good glass is important, if you want the best possible resolution.

Thanks, after reading that I think I got it. Interestingly, the Canon has twice the megapixels, but the sensor is 4 times the surface area, giving the ratio of pixel density between the two of 2.4:5.0 MP/cm^2.

This issue may also explain why Panasonic is making special HD lenses for the G1HD, besides just the need for faster auto-focus.

Do I take what you're saying about the importance of good glass as an argument for a regular 35mm Nikon or Canon lens over the smaller M mount Leica lenses? I assume the Leica lenses are higher quality glass, but on the G1, the full sized 35mm lenses will only be using the center of the lens, effectively, which I assume is where image quality is best?

If I get this camera, I'm planning on buying some good lenses, just not sure how to know a good lens from a bad one.

(Interesting, in the thread about the M mount lenses, someone said the "extra resolution you'd get from a good M mount lens won't make a difference on 1080p video". http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/photo-hd-...ens-video.html )

I saw this link posted on DP Review.
tu.no - Kompakt speilrefleks med HD-video - Teknisk Ukeblad
Translated version:
Translated version of http://www.tu.no/forbrukerteknologi/article201703.ece

It appears Panasonic must have upgraded the 20mm lens to f1.4 from f1.7. It would be a huge shocker if true.

Another place you can look for a simple explanation is here:

http://www.schneideroptics.com/pdfs/Digitar.pdf

In particular, look at page 3.

Ok, I think I got it, and it sounds like the best lenses will be the ones designed for this system, as the 4/3 imager is smaller than FF35, and its reasonable Leica/Panasonic will take this into account. At any rate, it looks like the system lenses will meet my needs at least for awhile.

In other news, I am beginning to believe this camera will be announced at PMA (though who knows if it will be shipping.)

If the Norweigan article is right, then its going to be more expensive than the G1. This makes sense given they have invested a fair amount in lens design (otherwise the G1 would have captured video.)

IF they're going to recoup that investment they have to charge more, but in charging more, they pretty much have to support 1080p capture.

So, if that's the price, I'm expecting 1080p at 24Mbps AVCHD.

I can only hope that its 24fps. (Which would also give the CPU more time to compress the images than 30fps.)

I agree. And assuming that price is correct (a big assumption) street price should be significantly lower. Even still, at that price 720p probably won't cut it for me. I'll have to wait to see for myself. Here's hoping this is an exciting week!

Ok, its time for an announcement. Panasonic, where are you?

There's rumors of a nikon 7000 (or was it 5000?) to replace the D40 (which it seems has just been discontinued). This uses a CCD sensor, so no rolling shutter, and while a DSLR, is rumored to shoot video as well. If its 1080p, it might just be worth getting-- especially if the G1HD turns out to be delayed. (I'm kinda ready to buy now. I don't think I can wait til summer.)