GH1 720p59.94 and 1080p24 modes at DVinfo.net

Steve Mullen · March 5th, 2009, 11:09 PM

Here we have a mix -- 1080 is 24.00fps which makes sense going to films, but can cause trouble in the video world. Motion judder is VERY high -- or VERY BAD -- depending on your feeling about judder.

The 720p is 59.94 and is smooth as butter.

The GH1 was clearly the -- by a big margin -- the best new camera at PMA.

Three issues:

1) when I said the lens was "slow" the rep said he didn't think so. We checked, at I'm sure I saw notation the lens was "1.4 to ???." I must be been wrong because that not what the data sheet says.

2) There is NO power zoom. Now even if you never zoom while shooting video -- not having a way to make quick focal length changes is a real negative. Plus, we all know we zoom. Unfortunately, the manual ring zoom control was VERY tight so not only was zooming not smooth -- you had to use so much force the camera moved.

3) The hand grip is hard and very tiny. Not pleasant to hold.

PS: The Pana rep expressed it well -- at $1500 folks would still buy it, but not feel good. At $1200 folks would feel good. At a $1000 it would be a super bargin.

Paulo Teixeira · March 5th, 2009, 11:54 PM

Considering the Fact that their TM300 camcorder retails for $1,300, it’s extremely unlikely that the GH1 including the 10x lens will sell for $1,000, but it would definitely sell like crazy. It would be like the Nintendo Wii for interchangeable lens cameras.

Steve Mullen · March 6th, 2009, 12:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paulo Teixeira

Considering the Fact that their TM300 camcorder retails for $1,300, it’s extremely unlikely that the GH1 including the 10x lens will sell for $1,000, but it would definitely sell like crazy. It would be like the Nintendo Wii for interchangeable lens cameras.

Totally different divisions with different price points. The current G1 is only $800. I can't see the upgrade costing that much more when its really the same camera with a new function. Pana is revising its USA marketing strategy because it's not happy with its sales. That could mean anything.

Sony would love to have a Wii. :)

Paulo Teixeira · March 6th, 2009, 01:00 AM

I’ve read that and I do see your point since it’s actually selling for $670 at B&H, except for the part about it being a G1 with an added function. Theirs a better Live MOS chip, better engine, a far more advanced lens and obviously a few HD video modes. Personally, I’m expecting $1,200 to $1,300 but $1,000 would definitely be a game changer.

Jose A. Garcia · March 6th, 2009, 07:30 AM

You say that motion judder is really noticeable in 1080p mode. Can it be because the shutter was set at a higher speed than 1/48? I mean, can you control shutter speed in video mode?

Liza Witz · March 6th, 2009, 11:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jose A. Garcia

Can it be because the shutter was set at a higher speed than 1/48? I mean, can you control shutter speed in video mode?

Yes, you can set the shutter speed to 1/48th and keep it there when shooting 24fps. That's my plan-- keep the aperture wide open, shutter 1/48th and let adjust ISO to get the right exposure.

Steve Mullen · March 6th, 2009, 02:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jose A. Garcia

You say that motion judder is really noticeable in 1080p mode. Can it be because the shutter was set at a higher speed than 1/48? I mean, can you control shutter speed in video mode?

yes -- but the minimum is 1/60th which is "correct" for 60i and 720p60.

Steve Mullen · March 6th, 2009, 03:17 PM

"1) when I said the lens was "slow" the rep said he didn't think so. We checked, at I'm sure I saw notation the lens was "1.4 to ???." I must be been wrong because that not what the data sheet says."

The rep and I were both wrong. The lens on the demo camera did say "1 4" but I missed the ":" so it really is F4.0-5.8 which is really slow. Which is what I said to the rep. Lise a stop slow than other cameras. Of course, perhaps the cmos chip is 2x more sensitive.

This makes me think the camera can't be priced much above the current still-only version. How much cost in the unit to add the AVCHD encoder and modify the firmware?

Questions:

1) Not clear to me if the 17.3mm x 13.0mm chip in a four-thirds camera is going to provide the DOF of a 35mm chip.

2) The bigger the chip, the more one can stop down without diffraction. So with a 35m frame, one could stop down to f/22. If a four-thirds camera provides the same effective area as does a 35mm camera -- then the Pana lens stopping down to f/22 is useable. But, if it's not the "same" then does diffraction set in at f/11?

Jose A. Garcia · March 6th, 2009, 03:18 PM

So it's possible that the PAL version has 25fps and 1/50 of minimum shutter, which is closer to cinema, except for the extra frame per second.

So even if you had both PAL and NTSC options in the same camera, 24fps at 1/50 wouldn't look right either... I guess we have a first weak point in this camera if you want to use it to get a cinema look.

Steve Mullen · March 6th, 2009, 03:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jose A. Garcia

So it's possible that the PAL version has 25fps and 1/50 of minimum shutter, which is closer to cinema, except for the extra frame per second.

So even if you had both PAL and NTSC options in the same camera, 24fps at 1/50 wouldn't look right either... I guess we have a first weak point in this camera if you want to use it to get a cinema look.

It never shoots 25fps or 30fps. This is a 50i/60i 1080 interlace camera or a 720p50/p60 camera.

The photo-jpeg is only 30fps no matter your region.

Jose A. Garcia · March 6th, 2009, 03:52 PM

Edited... Double post.

Jose A. Garcia · March 6th, 2009, 03:59 PM

Yes, but the data sheet says the sensor shoots 25-30 progressive fps and then converts the stream to interlaced with a 3:2 pulldown. Anyway I meant that the 1080i50 mode may have a minimum shutter speed of 1/50. Also I guess it's pretty clear that "interlaced" mode is just a disguised progressive.

Jose A. Garcia · March 6th, 2009, 07:02 PM

By the way, I know you've already played with it and you may know better, but the specs say 60 -1/4000 sec of shutter speed. Are you sure it cannot be set to 1/48?

Steve Mullen · March 6th, 2009, 07:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jose A. Garcia

Yes, but the data sheet says the sensor shoots 25-30 progressive fps and then converts the stream to interlaced with a 3:2 pulldown. Anyway I meant that the 1080i50 mode may have a minimum shutter speed of 1/50. Also I guess it's pretty clear that "interlaced" mode is just a disguised progressive.

No 2-3 pulldown is used with 25/50. Yes, the shutter speed at 50i is 1/50th.

Looking at the spec., it shoots 24p -- which gets 2-3 pulldown -- and 25p which does not.

Valeriu Campan · March 7th, 2009, 03:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve Mullen

"
Questions:

1) Not clear to me if the 17.3mm x 13.0mm chip in a four-thirds camera is going to provide the DOF of a 35mm chip.

Of course that DOF will be different. Micro 4/3 is ~ half the size of S35mm frame, 2/3" is half the size of micro 4/3.

Two of the most talked films at the Oscars were shot with 2/3" cameras (Slum Dog Millionaire and "... Benjamin Button". Not to mention the winner :-)

Shallow DOF is not the universal pancea to become a filmaker.

March 5th, 2009, 11:09 PM	#1
Steve Mullen HDV Cinema Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Las Vegas Posts: 4,007	GH1 720p59.94 and 1080p24 modes Here we have a mix -- 1080 is 24.00fps which makes sense going to films, but can cause trouble in the video world. Motion judder is VERY high -- or VERY BAD -- depending on your feeling about judder. The 720p is 59.94 and is smooth as butter. The GH1 was clearly the -- by a big margin -- the best new camera at PMA. Three issues: 1) when I said the lens was "slow" the rep said he didn't think so. We checked, at I'm sure I saw notation the lens was "1.4 to ???." I must be been wrong because that not what the data sheet says. 2) There is NO power zoom. Now even if you never zoom while shooting video -- not having a way to make quick focal length changes is a real negative. Plus, we all know we zoom. Unfortunately, the manual ring zoom control was VERY tight so not only was zooming not smooth -- you had to use so much force the camera moved. 3) The hand grip is hard and very tiny. Not pleasant to hold. PS: The Pana rep expressed it well -- at $1500 folks would still buy it, but not feel good. At $1200 folks would feel good. At a $1000 it would be a super bargin. Attached Thumbnails __________________ Switcher's Quick Guide to the Avid Media Composer >>> http://home.mindspring.com/~d-v-c

March 5th, 2009, 11:54 PM	#2
Paulo Teixeira Trustee Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Massachusetts Posts: 1,773	Considering the Fact that their TM300 camcorder retails for $1,300, it’s extremely unlikely that the GH1 including the 10x lens will sell for $1,000, but it would definitely sell like crazy. It would be like the Nintendo Wii for interchangeable lens cameras. __________________ https://www.youtube.com/user/PhotoVi...esEtc/featured https://www.pond5.com/artist/paulot

March 6th, 2009, 01:00 AM	#4
Paulo Teixeira Trustee Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Massachusetts Posts: 1,773	I’ve read that and I do see your point since it’s actually selling for $670 at B&H, except for the part about it being a G1 with an added function. Theirs a better Live MOS chip, better engine, a far more advanced lens and obviously a few HD video modes. Personally, I’m expecting $1,200 to $1,300 but $1,000 would definitely be a game changer. __________________ https://www.youtube.com/user/PhotoVi...esEtc/featured https://www.pond5.com/artist/paulot

March 6th, 2009, 07:30 AM	#5
Jose A. Garcia Major Player Join Date: May 2007 Location: Sevilla (Spain) Posts: 439	You say that motion judder is really noticeable in 1080p mode. Can it be because the shutter was set at a higher speed than 1/48? I mean, can you control shutter speed in video mode? __________________ Jose A. Garcia - Freelance camera operator, web designer and VFX artist - http://www.sinproblema.net/

March 6th, 2009, 03:17 PM	#8
Steve Mullen HDV Cinema Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Las Vegas Posts: 4,007	The GH1 does have a slow lens "1) when I said the lens was "slow" the rep said he didn't think so. We checked, at I'm sure I saw notation the lens was "1.4 to ???." I must be been wrong because that not what the data sheet says." The rep and I were both wrong. The lens on the demo camera did say "1 4" but I missed the ":" so it really is F4.0-5.8 which is really slow. Which is what I said to the rep. Lise a stop slow than other cameras. Of course, perhaps the cmos chip is 2x more sensitive. This makes me think the camera can't be priced much above the current still-only version. How much cost in the unit to add the AVCHD encoder and modify the firmware? Questions: 1) Not clear to me if the 17.3mm x 13.0mm chip in a four-thirds camera is going to provide the DOF of a 35mm chip. 2) The bigger the chip, the more one can stop down without diffraction. So with a 35m frame, one could stop down to f/22. If a four-thirds camera provides the same effective area as does a 35mm camera -- then the Pana lens stopping down to f/22 is useable. But, if it's not the "same" then does diffraction set in at f/11? __________________ Switcher's Quick Guide to the Avid Media Composer >>> http://home.mindspring.com/~d-v-c

March 6th, 2009, 03:18 PM	#9
Jose A. Garcia Major Player Join Date: May 2007 Location: Sevilla (Spain) Posts: 439	So it's possible that the PAL version has 25fps and 1/50 of minimum shutter, which is closer to cinema, except for the extra frame per second. So even if you had both PAL and NTSC options in the same camera, 24fps at 1/50 wouldn't look right either... I guess we have a first weak point in this camera if you want to use it to get a cinema look. __________________ Jose A. Garcia - Freelance camera operator, web designer and VFX artist - http://www.sinproblema.net/

March 6th, 2009, 03:52 PM	#11
Jose A. Garcia Major Player Join Date: May 2007 Location: Sevilla (Spain) Posts: 439	Edited... Double post. __________________ Jose A. Garcia - Freelance camera operator, web designer and VFX artist - http://www.sinproblema.net/

March 6th, 2009, 03:59 PM	#12
Jose A. Garcia Major Player Join Date: May 2007 Location: Sevilla (Spain) Posts: 439	Yes, but the data sheet says the sensor shoots 25-30 progressive fps and then converts the stream to interlaced with a 3:2 pulldown. Anyway I meant that the 1080i50 mode may have a minimum shutter speed of 1/50. Also I guess it's pretty clear that "interlaced" mode is just a disguised progressive. __________________ Jose A. Garcia - Freelance camera operator, web designer and VFX artist - http://www.sinproblema.net/

March 6th, 2009, 07:02 PM	#13
Jose A. Garcia Major Player Join Date: May 2007 Location: Sevilla (Spain) Posts: 439	By the way, I know you've already played with it and you may know better, but the specs say 60 -1/4000 sec of shutter speed. Are you sure it cannot be set to 1/48? __________________ Jose A. Garcia - Freelance camera operator, web designer and VFX artist - http://www.sinproblema.net/