HVX200 Reviews are not focusing on what's important

[Antoine Fabi]

Michael,

you've worked with both the HVX and the XLH1.

Wich one do you prefer ?
How would you compare the image quality ?

I know it is subjective, but...

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Originally Posted by Michael Maier

The HD100 employs no pixel shift, the resolution is native.
I'm not sure the clips I have seen are any sharper than what the HD100 produces. It's sure more colorful, but not sharper. Most seem to agree the 1080 is uprezed 720.

Hmmm.... Are you sure there's no pixel shift (at least horizontal) on the HD100? I could swear there is....

About the reason they are hiding the CCD specs, reading your post I got the impression you agree it may be inferior pixel count, even though you started saying it may not be so. So I got a little confused over your opinion here.

Sorry if I confused, I kinda started rambling. Yes, I think the pixel count is inferior to the H1. I do believe that the vertical pixel count is greater than 720 - looking at individual frames, there is definitely more vertical detail in the 1080 footage than the 720, so I doubt it's simply up-scaled 720. Look at raw frames in Photoshop or other app and look at the edge "enhancements" and halos. They like to stretch horizontally. Is this a sign of lower horizontal res (rectangular CCD pixels that are elongated horizontally) or is it a factor of the DVCPROHD codec using 960x720 & 1280x1080 resolutions which must be stretched horizontally for proper playback or is it a combination of both?

[Stephen L. Noe]

Originally Posted by Jeff Kilgroe

Hmmm.... Are you sure there's no pixel shift (at least horizontal) on the HD100? I could swear there is....

The HD-100 uses full resolution 1280x720 chips. They use no shifting. JVC gambled on native rez chips and I think it pays off in great quality and predictable results.

[Barlow Elton]

I have seen some very impressive results from the HD100. It's actually kind of shocking...I think it has the best 24p "look" of them all. It's a subjective thing for sure, but it seemed to have the most filmic motion of them all.

Things I've seen look like really good Super16. It's too bad JVC has a bit of a stigma to overcome. I look forward to their next version. Hopefully with higher bit rates, frame rates, and SDI.

[Simon Wyndham]

Originally Posted by Nathan Brendan Masters

deliver. I think Sony sucks for a number of reason (mostly their corporate culture and they don't seem to care about their "fans" = buyers) but I'll probably buy a

On the contrary. Sony listens quite intently. But it isn't going to make something that conflicts with its own overall strategy.

I take it that you are referring to progressive scan when you say that they don't care about their fans or buyers? There's more to life than a 'p'. Do you actually think that a company is going to sacrifice customers just to be awkward?

If you want to see corporate attitude at work look no further than Panasonic. Or ask any product reviewer unlucky enough to say anything negative about their stuff. Panasonic do not welcome criticism of any form. Sony on the other hand don't mind at all. In fact the very reason why Showreel mags Sony XDCAM supplement was created by an independent magazine was precisely because Sony wanted an independent viewpoint, warts and all. Panasonic would never ever even contemplate such an idea.

[Chris Hurd]

Okay fellows, that's enough Ford vs. Chevy for today.

My fault for letting the "I think Sony sucks" post get through, that has no business here, sorry.

[Boyd Ostroff]

Originally Posted by Chris Hurd

Either that, or I'll go Mac for the first time ever. Thereby shocking all of my Mac friends.

Well I'm shocked that you would even consider it! ;-)

[Michael Maier]

Originally Posted by Jeff Kilgroe

Hmmm.... Are you sure there's no pixel shift (at least horizontal) on the HD100? I could swear there is....

As Stephen already said, yes the HD100 uses no pixel shift. It's the only full resolution under 10k HD camera in the market today actually.

[Michael Maier]

Originally Posted by Barlow Elton

I have seen some very impressive results from the HD100. It's actually kind of shocking...I think it has the best 24p "look" of them all. It's a subjective thing for sure, but it seemed to have the most filmic motion of them all.

That was one of the main reasons I bought one. Full resolution and the 24p look the most filmic in my opinion too.

Originally Posted by Barlow Elton

Things I've seen look like really good Super16. It's too bad JVC has a bit of a stigma to overcome. I look forward to their next version. Hopefully with higher bit rates, frame rates, and SDI.

The so called JVC stigma is mostly with people who doesn't own JVC gear, believe me. Most DV500, DV5000, DV5100 are very happy owners. Besides SSE, most complains about the HD100 has been in the post path, because it's a new format. But I would say most of the people who DO own one are happy. I know I am.
The thing about JVC gear is that every little thing is blown out of proportions and with Panasonic every flaw is somehow twisted into something little or swept under the carpet by the Panasonic fans. Just look at how all the flaws pointed in the HVX200 have been dismissed as not a big deal and immediately given workarounds and how flaw in the HD100 has to be talked over and over for weeks like there’s no tomorrow and like they have no workaround as well. That’s where JVC’s stigma is. Surely not with who interests JVC most, which are the people who actually own their gear.

[Simon Wyndham]

No probs Chris. Just trying to redress the balance as I feel Sony get an unfair rap a lot of the time as a company.

When people complain about a company not listening to users desires for features they want in equipment I think they are passively expecting the companues to read each thread in a forum such as this.

People, if you want a company to listen you have to contact them directly. You'll get a lot further if you find the product manager of a particular line (not difficult) and send them your comments about the product directly. You have to take the bull by the horns.

[Chris Hurd]

Thanks Simon, in my experience all of these big corps have had their attitude problems. They're all pretty much guilty in one way or another. All I'm asking is, on this site let's please stay focused on the technical aspects of the gear. Much appreciated,

[Steve Roark]

I know its still early to draw conclusions, but I agree that Panasonic's marketing dept. seems to have a split personality when it comes to releasing information. Mike, rest assured that if (and I do mean IF) the HVX turns out to be no cleaner than a DVX100b in SD mode, then I won't be singing its praises either. So, far the XL-H1 seems to have the most favorable unveiling. I'd like to see a side-by-side of all the HD cameras in all modes, but human nature being the way it is, I'm sure the debate will last longer than the most of the cameras do.

Maybe I should just buy one of the XL2s being dumped by people who need the latest, greatest toy.

[Nathan Brendan Masters]

Originally Posted by Chris Hurd

Okay fellows, that's enough Ford vs. Chevy for today.

My fault for letting the "I think Sony sucks" post get through, that has no business here, sorry.

I'm sorry about that. I did say "I think" as a matter of opinion but I also said I was going to buy a Sony. I will rephraze and say I don't really care for Sony.

Originally Posted by Simon Wyndham

On the contrary. Sony listens quite intently. But it isn't going to make something that conflicts with its own overall strategy.

Was 15p part of the overall strategy? If they could do 15p (unuseable) then no one will never convince me they couldn't do 30. It seems like they did a progressive mode just to have one. But it's obvious they know people want 30p at least.

Originally Posted by Simon Wyndham

I take it that you are referring to progressive scan when you say that they don't care about their fans or buyers? There's more to life than a 'p'. Do you actually think that a company is going to sacrifice customers just to be awkward?

Yes, happens all the time. I doubt they think they're being awkward, they think they're the best. Think about it. I've never heard anyone say Sony produces a poor image. Can you image a 24p (I'd even take 30p considering I've shot 30p and people still couldn't tell the difference) image from a Sony FX1 style HDV camera? Do you know how many fans Sony could steal back from Panasonic?

Originally Posted by Simon Wyndham

If you want to see corporate attitude at work look no further than Panasonic. Or ask any product reviewer unlucky enough to say anything negative about their stuff. Panasonic do not welcome criticism of any form.

That's not good either. It's not a thing of Sony being bad as much as the image quality being so good but them not giving me anything I can use under $10k versus Panasonic that has given my a line of cameras around $5k and under that are very useful. The only reason I'm looking at a Sony is because of how the produce night scenes in 60i, so assume in 1080i it will be that much better.

Originally Posted by Simon Wyndham

Sony on the other hand don't mind at all. In fact the very reason why Showreel mags Sony XDCAM supplement was created by an independent magazine was precisely because Sony wanted an independent viewpoint, warts and all. Panasonic would never ever even contemplate such an idea.

Like I said, it's completely personal. The same is true for Panasonic. I hate the whole P2 idea "right now" (for the same reason many other do) but you better believe if I could get a 120GB card for about $1500 I'd do it in a heartbeat. My dream would be if the Panasonic HVX did DV, HDV and HD and came out with a 120 P2 card. I think Firestore would lose their minds at the loss of business. My main gripe is in my opinion Panasonic tries to do it all (and seems to be pretty good at it) while Sony can do it all but chooses not too. Then they try to pretend to do it all but since they know they don't they design a better camera body. (The FX1 does look hot).

All in all I know no camera does everything but sometimes it seems silly not to do something that is pretty standard in 2006, when you know the money and market is there. And let's not forget Sony did lie about the FX/ZU1 doing 24p until they were pushed about the matter so they do know there's a need and want for it. (And it's a fact Sony did initially lie about this initially). Panasonic may not be giving you all the info but they're at least pretty much saying "Hey we just won't tell you. If you like the image, buy it, if not dont." Again this is all my opinion based on my needs and wants.

As for the reviews of the HVX I think the most important thing is the image, the motion and the sound these are the things I most want to know about.

-Nate

[Michael Pappas]

Hi Antonie,

I have shot with both untethered as well. I think both are amazing cameras; I wish I could smash them together and make a H1-200.

The HVX is noisy. I have worked in formats that put the best HD to shame, so I'm sensitive to artifacts. I am also very forgiving when you take price to performance. The XLH1 is very close to, if not biting the heals of a 750 to 900 hdcam's.

That's amazing.

The HVX200 can not do low key to medium key cinematography with out generating ccd noise in the mid to low grey tones. This tone level is how 90% of the greatest films and TV dramas etc are shot. So when I see the HVX200 do this, it's not good. Panasonic used a noisier ccd and it's obvious. I will have my third chance at the HVX200 soon and it will get a true test. I think the HVX200 is an amazing small professional size HD camera that can be amazing. But the noise issue in a digital age is not good when compression systems get all mucked up trying to deal with that.

The XLH1 speaks for itself, it's silky and clean. You can make the H1 have any look you want. It's all adjustable inside. If I had to buy now, It would be the H1 hands down no questions. But I don't, so I get to explore the HVX200 more..

Take a look just posted Canon XL H1 frames from footage I filmed in Hollywood.

LINK TO XLH1 MATERIAL: http://www.pbase.com/Arrfilms


Michael Pappas
Arrfilms@hotmail.com
PappasArts & Arrfilms Main site
http://www.pbase.com/Arrfilms
http://www.PappasArts.com
http://www.Myspace.com/

Originally Posted by Antoine Fabi

Michael,

you've worked with both the HVX and the XLH1.

Wich one do you prefer ?
How would you compare the image quality ?

I know it is subjective, but...

[Rob McCardle]

Hey Michael - images are not loading on Mac or on PC. If I click the image placeholder I get 404.

Anything we can do ?