that's right Barry.

I took the decision one month ago.
It works great, plenty of real time and render power.

It is rthe safest investment right now i think...

****edit....I bought a Quad

Congrat's Barry! But why do you want the Dual instead of the Quad? I'm sure you have reason that I may have missed elsewhere. Thanks. Either way, I'm sure you will be happy. I've had my Dual 2.7 for about 6 months now and it's been great!

You're thinking right Barry.
I've got 3 studios and offices all Mac based and between the move to HD and the new Intel evolution it means reconfiguring virtually dozens of software programs and hardware options.

It makes my head hurt when I think about the audio post and music suite just upgraded to MOTU 4.6 and all the graphic design and animation stuff from PS to Quark, Motion to Shake that all have to be ported to the new Intel paradigm - and I was just about to get all new Quads.

Anyway, because it looks like, maybe by spring/summer hardware and software systems will all be transitioned, and because I don't want to get 5 Quads just to have new Intel Quads announced in 3 months, the smart investment would be to look at dual 2.7 G5s as an interim upgrade.

The prices will be good and they're very fast and running everything perfectly now including FCP HD in real time for both P2 and most HDV configurations.

You may find the Dual 2.7 plenty for your needs for a while to come.
In my audio room it can run 48 channel mixing console with full effects procesing on every channel at 44k 24 bit and things lile FCP and Motion fly on them.

Oh and you'll love designing in Motion and working in Soundtrack Pro, LiveType and DVD Studio Pro. The audio loops, SFX and visual content that comes packaged with them and FCP Studio are pretty great.

I don't think this has been mentioned on this thread yet, but Sonnet announced a PCIe SATA card with port multiplication and a 5 drive bay enclosure that works with it. I'm not seeing it on their store yet, but it's supposed to ship in Feb. More waiting, but at least it's announced.

http://www.sonnettech.com/product/tempo_sata_e4p.html

http://www.sonnettech.com/product/fusion500p.html

Could get 2TB of RAID storage for a QuadCore G5 for about $2k (400GB drives).

Variations on drive use for redundancy and backup is pretty flexible as well. Say 1TB RAID on Bay 1/2 on 500GB drives, 1TB backup on 3/4, and use Bay 5 to swap archival drives.

Wow, Barry,

welcome.

Listening to Jobs I got the sense that they don't actually have firm committments from developers (except MS) to port to the Intel based Macs. He actually was trying to encourage them to get a move on it. He also promised that by the end 2006 all Macs would have the Intel processor.

That is the reason why Apple made the dual core G5 is so affordable.
This migration is probably not as drastic as OSX being Unix based, but it is very exhausting for developers. And Apple always has the lead in developing key application software, then companies like Adobe gets tired of that. When a software developer can hold its competitiveness against Apple (like what happened on Premiere for Mac), he would be dropping out. We have fabulous dual core G5 to play with for at least a year, and the board like AJA Kona LHe or Kona 3 would be migrated to IntelMac. You can use dual core G5 when you switch to IntelMac to the second computer or a server. You might spare some needs of server since all of your HVX200 footage will be all data files.

If this is not appropriate for this thread, you guys let me know and I'll remove it. But while we're on the subject of buying a Dual or Quad - If any of you want a deal on a Dual 2.7 with 6 gig of Apple RAM and the NVIDIA GEFORCE 6800 GT DDL CARD, I'll be happy to sell mine and upgrade to a Quad and use it through 2006 until I see what's happening in 2007. I'll post a link to the classified section with details shortly. Once again, if any of you feel that this is an "off topic" or "not in good taste" to post this let me know and I'll edit it out. But I think this could be good for someone that would like to save some money on a nice and loaded dual 2.7.

EDIT (8:53 p.m.) -
I should have a price figured out on Friday. I was unable to reach the DVinfo.net sponsor that I do business with, as he's at MacWorld!!! I was going to get a "selling for new today" price on the above configuration and then base my price from there. Feel free to contact me via email until then if you have an interest. Thank you.

EDIT (1/13/06 - 2:43 p.m.) -
Decided not to sell. Too much trouble for too little time with all these changes in the air.

That's kinda what I'm thinking... I like the quads, but I think the extra money might be wasted on the system and better spent elsewhere since the new Intel boxes should be only a few months away. As for the new Intel MacBook and iMac models, they may not be a pointless "today" solution. OK, they are for *TODAY*, but most of us won't see our HVX200 until mid to late February. FCP is supposed to be shipping with Intel support by mid-March. So a MacBook or Intel iMac may not be a bad interim solution. You can also bet that some vendors with extra stock may run some specials or package discounts... We won't see any wild deals just yet and Apple still has a fair degree of control over pricing, but system/software bundles are a real possibility, especially once the new Intel systems to replace the PowerMac are announced.

Hey guys - just my call on it and fwiw - don't be lured into the iMac - it always has been crippled for expansion.

atm - right now - the pb is it. <smack> I mean MacBook Pro or an "old" pb that still has fw 800 and pcmcia, or a G5 dualie or quad new or second hand.

I love the iMacs - great machines, great value - no good for us.
Ok for dv, you can get by with fw 400 and so are the iBooks - fine for dv.

For anything else other than dv - your goose is cooked and you cooked it.
NO EXPANSION ...

don't want to see you guys come over to the Mac and realise oopps, wrong choice ... that's an expensive introduction.

I own a powermac g5 dual 2.7ghz. This still uses pci-x, doesn't it? So there's no way for me to go for the Kona 3, right? I also own a 1.65 ghz Powerbook. I'm currently having some problems with it, maybe because I've limewire instaled. My DV playback only works in "medium" quality setting in FCP. When I select "better, it struggles and I can't get realtime. The same can be said about dvcprohd footage that I've downloaded. The Powerbook is struggling to view those files in realtime.
Maybe this is a post for another category...

Anyway, just wanted to say I migrated from PC to Mac because of the HVX, too.

Because of MacBook lacking a PC-card slot, I looked into USB2 to PCcard reader, actually, I happened to have one by I/O Data, but it did not work with the Power Mac G5. I was going to recommend to buy MacBook anyway (anyway means wether you are going to wait for the desktop intelmac) so one can bring in contents from P2 card directly and quickly at site, but since I can't find USB2 to PCcard reader, it might not be a good idea. Idea on P2 card, should go directly to be transfered, so you would not waste time in copying....unless making copies assures the reasons for making duplicates for the safty reasons.

For now, I'm thinking the smallest powerbook g4 with card slot to take around. Because my powerbook g4 12 inch was not so usefull to take around since it does not have a card slot. So, I ended up just making the backups on my iPod.

My configuration would be upgraded to 15" Powerbook G4 with cardslot to take around with HVX200, PowerMac G5 Dual core with Kona 3 and Huge Fiber Raid. CinePorter or something similar for direct recording most of the time and one 8GB P2 card for quick transfering or testing purpose.

Hi Kaku -
I think that there will be pcmcia adapters for the express slot within a month or two as there will be pcmcia fw 800 adapters for the express slot.

But yeah - if you needed a Mac now, at this moment - it would be a hard choice - to say the least ... not so many options.

Rob,

Good, I did not have time to look around much, so nice to know that it is coming.

Good advice. Although, with the exception of the PC card slot (or Express34 on the MacBook), those systems are just as crippled for expansion. Depends on needs/uses too... I wouldn't be against buying a G5 iMac that can run FCP right now just to get up and running or even a Mac Mini for a real cheap solution. Expansion is a problem, but we're talking about using the iMac as a temporary solution... These are not expensive solutions and should retain their resale value to some degree. In my case, if I buy the iMac for a temporary fix, I can hand it down to my parents when I'm done with it. They need to replace their older computer anyway. :) I think an Intel iMac would be a better buy, even though it won't run FCP for another month or two. ...The new Intel systems seem more logical, just based on the thinking once a few more applications catch up to the new hardware, the G5 iMac's market value will land in the toilet. OTOH, buying a dual 2.7GHz G5 still may be the most sane choice. Sure, it will be superceded by the new Intel models sometime this year, but it will also be usable in itself for a couple years anyway.

2.7 or dp 2, 2.3, 2.5 refurb - would be a fair choice I think, Jeff. And yes, I think 1 or 2 years is a reasonable expectation for support ... more like 3 if the transition from OS 9 to X is anything to judge by.

Not to foretell doom but we are looking at new machines and a compile of the entire suite and OS ... Apple are good but any sane person would have to expect some teething issues.

From a productive standpoint some will choose to wait a while.
I could jump on the new stuff right now - but only because I've got backup systems.

edit: IMO, of course.
The only gotcha's I can see with a tower refurb is the additional investment in older tech - which may bite later on.
Don't under rate the current pb's as well - they offer the "middle of the road" approach.
Configure them with fw800 dual channel raid 0 and they can handle 720 easily, as well as easy p2 transfer and direct capture.
If you needed to buy RIGHT NOW it's tricky - I can sympathise.

I just think Mac has created a bit of a holding pattern for us...Man producers that is. And the same goes for my audio studio.

But the upside is that for so many users that want to jump on the new Intel wagon, there will be good deals on G5 towers and the 2.5 and 2.7 will make great HD FCP systems.

It seems logical to simply stay under the radar as far as the new Intel change over, cetainly no one wants to think about Rossetta in a professional environment.

I'd bet that we'll see the new Intel towers by this summer, but again, until all the supporting apps are as smooth as the current integration, why move. Especially if a last generation G5 will do everything you need.

As far as the iMac is concerned, I'd do the same thing. While expansion is a dead end, the fastest iMac is a very nice little system if you can live with a 20' monitor and the limited RAM. THey do in fact hold their value, and for someone just getting into Mac could be a good interim solution while waiting the next year for the Intel transition to be complete.

P2 - Which Ones & Why?
 

How many P2 cards are you guys getting and in what storage capacity?

What's your reasoning (if you don't mind me asking)?

I was thinking of one 4gig card, then I was thinking of two.

Now I'm thinking of 2 8gig cards because of the flexibility of shooting time that combo would allow. I'm still trying to decide though. And since I have time (since I don't know when I will actually take delivery of the HVX), I thought I'd see what everyone else was doing.

I have read in a few places and heard from the DVinfo.Net sponsor that I'm buying the camera from that the 8gig cards are sparse. If that's the case, I guess there's not much of a decision to make.

I look forward to hearing other opinions on this subject. Especially since the new Mac Laptop was introduced at MWSF and that is no longer an unknown factor. Thank you.

Hi Derek,

I've selected (2) 8GB P2 cards to get the most un-interrupted shooting time possible. I would have preferred to use the Cineporter but it doesn't look like it's going to be available in time to use it for my project.

My workflow will be to fill up the P2 cards, transfer off to an external firewire drive, wipe the cards and keep shooting.

Having 2 8GB P2 cards is great. Even after you get something like Cineporter, you have option to swap the cards.

I just began to process the 24p files to be real 24frame with the cinematool reverse telecine menu in the FCP5. It is very easy, just select the file and choose the menu. It converts the file to be real 24 frame. I believe this could be done with batch selection.

I'd recommend 4gb cards over 8gb if you can make it work. You definitely want more than one; I'd say two 4gb would be dramatically more useful than one 8gb. With just one card, as soon as it's full you have to shut down your production while offloading the contents. With two cards you can continue shooting while the other card is offloading. We did two days of dramatic narrative style shooting with just two 4gb cards and a laptop, and we never had to wait, the camera was always ready with a fresh card.

With just one card, I think you'll be not so happy.

As for pricing, 4gb's just make a lot more sense. At current pricing I think you can get two 4gb's and a P2 Store for less than the cost of two 8gb's. That's four times as much storage for less cash. Not that I'm necessarily recommending the P2 Store, but if I was considering the $10,000 pricetag of cam + 2 8gb's, I'd say the $9200 pricetag of the two 4gb's and the P2 Store is a much wiser way to spend the dough (plus it's less dough!)

There are two good cases to be made for going with the 8gb's. First, if you do long shots (maybe interviews) where you need to keep the camera rolling for a longer time, then yes the 8gb's make more sense than multiple 4gb's do. But, I'd say the FireStore would make more sense than either for that case, so...

The second case is in offloading to a firewire drive. Offloading to a firewire drive involves creating a new partition for each card, and the system limits you to 15 partitions. If you use the camera to control a firewire drive, it limits it to 15 partitions; so for 4gb cards, that means you can offload a max. of 60gb before it's done. With 8gb cards, presumably you could go to 120gb (I haven't tested that, I don't have any 8gb's, but it seems to make sense).

Of course, if you're using a laptop, these size restrictions go away, you can use the full capacity of terabyte drives if you want.

In short, the 4gb's provide much more storage for the dollar; I think you can get around six 4gb cards for the price of two 8gb's. I have two 4gb cards, and I think it's serviceable for any type of dramatic narrative production; obviously for other types of uses you may have to consider other alternatives.

I waver back and forth on whether I should have purchased the HVX with (6) 4GB cards, but my order was placed and committed back in Oct. So, although the price is very steep, I had decided to go with the two 8GB card package.

My reasoning is, that it will be painful enough of a transition away from the 60 minute DV tape approach for me. And at 1080 res on the HVX200, we're talking *about* 4 minutes per 4GB card.

Documentary and run n' gun style eats time like crazy. With the two 8GB cards I can shoot 18 minutes worth of 1080 before offloading. Or per Barry's workflow suggestion, do the alternate card offload. So I could shoot 9 minutes worth on 1 card, remove, offload that, while shoooting 9 more on the other.

Finally, with 24PN, I like knowing the combined 16GB of the two cards will allow a little over 40 minutes of 720p recording without offload or card swap. Cut that in half for the 4GB cards.

So to save $$, and you don't need longer sustained recording, or no-offload-shooting style, I think the 4GB are definitely the way to go.

Maybe I'll buy some 4GB cards as well! :D :D

That does look REALLY good. The 720/24pN is probably what I'll be doing most of my work in as well, and 40 minutes of shooting before having to do anything else is nice.

Another thing that I like about the 8GB cards is their long term usability. I know that none of us know the future of this technology, but I would imagine a year from now we'll be seeing 16GB (and higher) P2 cards become available and at the same time prices dropping. If that's the case, I don't know how many times you would reach for a 4GB card when you could use a 8GB or 16GB?

This forum is a great place to learn from others' experience and it sure does seem like in Kaku's experience of using the HVX in several settings, he likes the 8GB card(s).
Then again, you have to remember that Barry's been using the HVX for probably the longest time of anyone here and he makes a good case for the 4GB cards as well. Decisions, decisions. (good ones though) :)

Call me silly, but I almost feel like worrying about recording time or, even having the ability to have long single clips by using different media is making all of us a bit spoiled.

On the few film projects is was a contracted DP, our standard film load was 11 minutes! Dumping to drives, switching cards, reformatting etc... it all seems like cake compared to dealing with loading and changing out film cans!

I'll take the ultra-small form factor and light weight of the HVX system vs. lugging around short-run film canisters any day! (laughs)

Robert,

I agree. Oh the "problems" we have!

Not to mention all of the new-found time I'll have with taking "capturing footage" out of the workflow process. Not only the new-found time, but the money as well, as this eliminates the need of having a deck and/or the wear & tear on your camera if you use it as your deck (although I think the "wear & tear" on a camera from using it as a deck are quite minimal).

I'll admit being spoiled by new tech for sure. I also admit that I take as much for granted as possible, in hopes of shattering some creative ground, just for me personally (clients may come to appreciate it as well). So I'm trying to cover bases that will help facilitate the artistic process as much as possible.

I aim to be involved in very well planned shoots, cinema film style, but I'm also aiming to get into hardcore verite concepts, and I may definitely need a lot of roll time, without breaks. Events and strange cool things happen with or without us. When I'm rollin', I want to increase my chances of capturing it.

:)

Additional Note: I just realized, woah, this topic was about the HVX200 and the *Mac*. We are way off topic. :P

Let's be clear -- the 8gb cards are better than the 4gb cards in all ways, shapes, and forms. I'm only looking at the cost-per-gigabyte ratio. If someone can justify the cost of the 8gb cards, of course they would provide for longer recording and fewer swaps. I was just saying that in general, the 4gb's are so much less expensive per gb that you could have two 4gb's, add a P2 Store and a field-offloading laptop, thus giving you about 100 gb of storage on hand for less than the cost of two 8gb cards.

But yes, absolutely if one had 8gb's and 4gb's, I would guess the 4's wouldn't get much use!

Thanks Barry. You're right 100%. It's the costs vs. benefit/convenience thats making it a tough decision for me. One other factor that is out of my control is going to be the availability of the 8GB cards. I may "have" to go with 1 or 2 4GB cards in order to get the HVX sooner.

Derek,

The 8GB cards are out there; check around with smaller, local shops. I don't know why yet, but it seems places like B&H aren't getting shipments of the HVX related hardware as fast as the smaller shops. Go figure.

Yep...

And to bring it back on topic, I'll announce that I just took the plunge!

I snagged a pretty darn good deal on a G5 quad on ebay. It's NIB and seems to come from a reputable seller. I just threw a bid out there and didn't imagine that I'd actually win, but nobody else stopped by to bid on it as the auction closed. Hopefully it pans out. G5 quad 2.5GHz, 4GB (I may upgrade to 8GB), 500GB HDD (I'll be adding a second), 7800GT, Airport Extreme w/Bluetooth.

I'll be connecting it to a new Dell 30" display. If it goes well and I decide to continue down the Mac path, I'll drop in a Kona2 (maybe a Kona3 if price allows) and I'll pick up a decent HD studio monitor. Once the system is here, I'll set it up with Final Cut Studio. The monitor just arrived today, but I haven't fired it up yet. If it all works out, I'll also add Shake, probably before I spring for the Kona card.

Congrats!! You're in for a nice ride.

The only flag this raises to me was a report on Barefeats about issues with the Dell 24" with Final Cut Pro while running at 60hz refresh rate. Here's the BareFeats report:

January 9th, 2006 (Updated) -- FCP PLAYBACK PROBLEM REPORTED
Readers have reported to me a problem with skipped frames during playback with Final Cut Pro using the Dell LCD 2405FPW display at 60Hz. Apple warns about problems with 60Hz refresh rate in an article on their web site, but that applies to CRTs. Most readers report NO problems with the Dell 2405FPW. We can't duplicate the problem in our lab. Apple recommends refresh rates of 75Hz or higher. The Quad-Core with the FX 4500 connected to the Dell 2405FPW can be set to 75Hz at 1024x768 or 1280x1024 resolution. The native 1920x1200 only can run at 60Hz on the Dell. It's unknown what scan rate the Cinema displays use. If you open the Displays preference panel, refresh rate is "n/a."

Hopefully, the resolution you want to use on the Dell allows a faster-than-60hz refresh rate. Or maybe it won't matter.

Thanks for the comments on the LCD refresh, Steev. :) I was never aware of a frame-skipping problem. Although frame judder is commonplace. For judder, it's not a Dell issue, it's a general LCD panel issue and present on all Apple displays as well as nearly every display out there. What it comes down to is these panels right now all sync at 60Hz, regardless of which resolution they're running. Some of the panels will take faster refresh rates as inputs, but still can only scan at 60Hz. Where the problem comes in with playback is when you have a 60Hz progressive display and you try to run frame rates like 24fps, you have the choice of seeing either judder (if the video frame draws are sync'd with the display blanking) or you see shearing/tearing (if the frame draws are not in sync). On CRTs or other displays that have higher refresh rates, this becomes less of an issue. Apple won't admit that this happens with their own displays, but *ALL* of the current Apple displays have a max refresh rate of 60Hz. A few models (like the 23" one) can accept higher-rate inputs for lower resolutions and even though the screen still outputs at 60Hz, this can still produces a smoother image at times. At 1920x1200, though (top resolution for the 23"), input is still limited to 60Hz as it is with the Dell 2405, or the Samsung 24x models, etc.. The DVI spec tops out with the max resolution at 60Hz being 1920x1200. Dual-Link DVI can transmit 1920x1200 @ 120Hz or 2560x1600 @ 60Hz.

60Hz refresh on LCD is just a way of life and millions of people the world over own these displays and don't seem to mind. Goes for HDTV sets too in the form of LCD, rear projection LCD/LCOS and Plasma. Some oddball pro sets and high-end consumer sets have 120Hz refresh, but they're few and far between - like the 65" Studio JVC LCOS set for $40K or the consumer grade Brillian 65" LCOS for about $9K.

Also these refresh issues plague CRT displays too, but nobody seemed to really ever notice. I think it's just something for LCD naysayers to gripe about. But I don't think the issue will go away until 120Hz displays are common... 120Hz gives perfect sync for 30fps, 60fps and 24fps with no frame judder.

Sorry for the long-winded post, but just thought I'd throw that out there. :)

I'm eager to see the new Dell 30" in action. It looks seriously cool on my desk and dwarfs my 24" Samsung. It has 75nits more brightness and a 700:1 contrast vs. the 500:1 of the Apple 30". Price-wise, they are the same.

I don't know if I'll wait for my new Quad or if I'll hook up my 7800GTX equipped gaming system. The 7800GTX has a dual-link DVI port on it. :)

Q's about copy protection on Apple software?
 

Here's one more issue I have been thinking of, now that I'm about to get this Mac thing going...

I know that Shake uses a USB dongle for copy protection. What about Final Cut Studio and/or the apps within? Do they get keyed to a specific system or is it an installation time-out similar to what Microsoft and Adobe use (can only install/register the product every 120 days or so)???

The reason I ask, is if the new Quad works out well and I end up liking FCS, I will probably buy a MacBookPro for field use. I can get the Universal FCS disc sometime in February so running the apps on the new Intel is a non-issue. But I just wanted to know what I'm up against if I will need a separate license for each system (yuck). Or if I can just put the USB dongle on a keychain like I do with my keys for Windows software and they go with me so I have them with whatever system I'm on.... How does the Apple license agreement work? With Microsoft and Adobe, they allow in the fine print a second installation for a mobile system even though the installations are time locked. Just install, call them up and tell them you're also installing on your notebook for when you're away from the office and they say "uh, OK" and give you the unlock code. Some other software vendors are a little more friendly and allow 2~3 installs before initiating the timelock (Autodesk, Vegas). ...Just curious what Apple does. I'm already liking how Apple offers the family upgrade packs too for OSX and some of their other software. $30 more than the standard upgrade for OSX and I can upgrade up to 5 systems. Wish Microsoft did that with Windows...

The proapps are keyed or dongled.

License says you can install one app on one computer at a time.

As an attorney, I read that to mean you can't, under the license, have multiple installs even though you are using only one at a time.

Your mileage may vary

FCS uses a serial number. FCS looks for repeat serial usages on an ethernet network. You won't be able to run it on more than 1 computer if the other computer(s) are on the same network. You can deduce the rest of your use from that statement. I'd just say, play fair. :)

Kaku's New Night Time Footage
 

Kaku,

Nice new HVX footage on your site! I love the details that you can see in the neon sign. Thanks for posting that and giving me something to edit and play around with while waiting for my cam.

Looks like Premiere Pro 2's lack of support for DVCPro HD without an expensive input card means they'll be more Mac switchers soon!

Yep. Also you can bet a lot of people are going to be switching to DVD Studio Pro too to get BluRay support (and possibly HD-DVD). Adobe is ignoring the existence of new HD disc formats for Encore 2.0 and Vegas+DVD has no announced plans either, although I bet they will support BluRay (being Sony and all that) sometime later this spring/summer.