Help! Lousy color rendering, especially red tones -anyone else than me?
 

Hi everyone,

This is my first post to this forum. Hope to get some help and support on a very urgent thing - the lousy (red) color rendering on the HDR-HC1E.

I just got this wonderful camcorder. But - after trying it out for a couple of days I am very puzzled and disappointed about the color rendering - it is worse than on any of my other camcorders. The cheapest camcorder only costs 1/5th of this beast...

The overall color is tame, reds come out very lilac or bluish, and the camera has also severe problems with skin tones, some people just look sick in low light.

This is all true for both HDV/DV recording and recording of stills on the memory card.

I thought that it is my camera that has a problem so I went to a Sony Store to compare. However, also their camera behaved as badly as mine!!!

I am really puzzled. So was the guy at the shop. Does anybody have similar experiences? Such an expensive camera with primary color filters should perform better!!!

I am so disappointed that I consider returning the camera. This can, however, be very difficult because I bought it via Pixmania.

I read somewhere about a recommendation to turn up the camera color from neurtral +3 steps. This helps a little, the colors become deeper, almost acceptable. The reds are still toward lilac and disappointing and not close to acceptable. The problem is that also the color noise inceases clearly with the increased color setting under lower light conditions.

Please understand that I am a semiprofessional so I know how to compensate for the white balance etc. I have tried all different settings and just came to the conclusion that this camcorder has a severe problem with reds. I would like to make an A/B comparison with a three CCD camcorder but I dont have one in my posession. I can tell from the images that the HDR does not even come close in color clarity or rendering :(

My best reference is my previous DV camcorder, a Canon MVX2i. It is a single CCD with non-primary color (cyan/magenta/yellow) filters. This beast costed 3 years ago about the same than HDR-HC1E! Compared to Canon the HDR has less saturated colors, pinkish skin tones, and pure reds turn out lilac or bluish. I compared both cameras side by side under the same controlled circumstances.

I shoot some pictures of a good quality color palette used for determining the color rendering of cameras and optics. Analyzing the pictures in Photoshop tells me the same in numbers that I can see with my bare eyes - the color rendering is lousy at the normal factory settings. Increasing the color using the camera color adjustment helps a little, but increases color noise as well.

I just have the feeling that Sony was forced to reduce the color saturation to be able to reach reasonable S/N figures and to be able to cope with the very much noisier CMOS. Thme imbalance in reproducing reds has either to do with a lousy Bayer color filter on top of the CMOS chip - and/or a somewhat bad color handling in the image processing. I have tested the color rendering with all different white balance settings - the results are the same...

If it interests anybody - I could post some of the images for you to see and compare.

Please reassure me that I invested my money wisely. Now I have a big doubt about that. And, gee, I am soooo disappointed...

Anyone else experiensing the same ??????


Sincerely,

Christian

I too noticed things are bluer than I think they should be. I really can't offer a good solution. I don't think there is a color temperature adjustment in the camera, I think that would have been the easiest fix. Maybe the hacks to add white balance adjustment would do the trick, though I'm wary of performing an unsupported operation.

the actually are a few white balance controls. one being white balance from which you can choose auto, outdoor, indoor, and one push (which activates manual control of the white balance). the other being white balance shift. where you can shift the color temperature in +/- 4 steps.

I have a color correction preset for Vegas that warms the image back up pretty well. Yeah, this camera loses a lot of it's luster in low light.

Hi Laurence, Jeff & R.P,

And thanks for your comments/remarks :)

I did my tests under fair circumstances, I used a total of 120W of incadescent bulbs diffused enough to get an uniform lighting on my ColorChecker card (GretagMacbeth). It is a color sample card used for professional color rendering tests with lots of different colored small squares, including primary colors and skin tones and various outher shades.

What strikes me is that even if I have adjusted the color balance manually (and get absolutely white whites..) the color tint on the color samples appears too bluish throuh the range. Especially the reds show up lilac :( My old Canon outshines the HDR in this respect. Not nice.

Too bad that I cannot post the images here for you to see. Can anyone ("older" users) post images here in this forum? I would like you to see my images for comparison and comments. Maybe I have to put them up on my homegape...

So - I have used all color controls available in the HDR-HC1, tweaking them in different positions. As I stated earlier, adjusting the color saturation setting (to +2 or +3) helps a little but does not remove the bluish overall tint. You cannot correct the problem using them. This camera has bad color reproduction even at good light levels, too much blue even if white is adjusted to be white. Maually or automatically :(

I invite you to further discuss this because I feel this is a serious problem that Sony should solve by publising a new firmware for this cam. We all could benefit from it. Please - if possible - do some tests on your units - and even better - compare with older equipment you might have. I found that the comparison can be made easily in the photo-mode. It is the same color processing and same sensor anyhow. Then it is easy to export the images on the memory card to the computer for analysis and comparison. (Photoshop is good for that purpose).

Christian, did you white balance using a white card or a warm card.
I figure that in dim situations using a warm card for color balancing with the A1 would be more beneficial considering the color saturation seems to go more blue when balanced for pure white.

Just an idea. I have always preferred a warmed color to my video, which is wht I preffer Canon (which produces a warmer image) to Sony (generally cooler and bluer or greener image), although I shoot with both, but preffer the Sony cameras for low light reasons.

Christian, if you have a Macbeth colorchecker chart and photoshop, you could post the L. a. b. values of some suspect patches and we/you could verify the correctness. FYI hereunder the patch coordinates for the colochecker.
www.babelcolor.com/download/ RGB%20Coordinates%20of%20the%20Macbeth%20ColorChecker.pdf

Christian, I just (re)read your post, and noticed you have an homepage. It would be wonderfull if you could publish yr results/comparisons like it is being done for DVX100 here http://www.bealecorner.com/dvx100/color/

Hello Andre!

Sorry I have been quite busy, well its holidaytime and as a father to two small boys there is not always too much spare time.

I will reshoot my MacBeth card and do it as good as possible to have a good comparison. I did my tests shooting pics to the memory card, not filming video. I guess that is ok - or is it? What kind of illumination did you use in your tests? I would like to repeat the test about under similar circumstances...
Hopefully I have time to do this before new years eve :)

For now I have increased the color setting in HC1 to +2 and it helps a little. The reds are, however, quite bluish :( Othervice I am very satisfied with this cam...

Best regards

Christian

Christian,
Although the lightsource is not too important as long as it is not fluorescent light or other low CRI light. I would advise to use daylight or halogen light. Set up for an evenly lit testcard.

I love my HC1. I had the Z1 prior to it (was too big to carry around).

Resolution wise I would say it is better than the FX1/Z1. It also has lots of the features of the FX1/Z1, yet it is so small!

Sadly however the colors are way off. The reds in particular look like purple. So I too am in the same boat. I have tried everything but there is no way out.

I use +2 on the color saturation, but still the reds are off. I don't know how this can be corrected even in Post. If the blueish cast is moved the other colors will shift too.

I really miss the colors of my Z1... and also the low light performance - the HC1 sucks in low light as one would expect of a one chipper.

Thanks for the link. BUT red is horrible even in blinding bright sunlight. The light level is irrelivant. The reds just don't look like reds. It is a real pity otherwise this little baby would be pefect...

Red is very purple even in good lightning
 

HI Hse and Chris & co,

Thanks for your comments and feedback. I don't know should I feel better now when I know that I am not alone with this problem :(

It is at least certainly not ONLY MY cam that has the problem, it seems as a problem at least in the first HC1 units.

Might I ask you for the serial numbers on your cams? It seems that I have a quite early one. It would be nice to compare and see if Sony has done something about this. It is everything just probably in the firmware anyhow, easy to update - at least in the production...

The camcorder rewiev you refer to is published in June 2005, also probably done on a quite early version of HC1.

This problem is so bad (the purple red colors at any lighting - and strange skin tones in low light) that I have been cosidering to return this camera. However, it is probably not possible...

I will contact the local Sony office here in Helsinki after the newyears eve to see what they have to say about the problem. I puchased this cam via Pixmania and received it 4 weeks ago.

This baby would be perfect (or I could live with the two other anomalities) if the red colour rendering would be as good as in my 1300€ cheaper Canon camcorder!!!

The two other anomalities are:

1) Interlace-based artifacts (jagged edges) during panning. These are clearly visible and more prominent than in my cheaper Canon camcorder... De-interlacing during edit probably can remove partially this but not completely.

2) Too fast slowest zoom speed when using the HC1 own control. Via LANC the zoom can be half as slow (24 sec). Any serious zooming should anyhow be performed using a tripod...

However, these things are probably discussed elsewhere and we should not start a parallel discussion about these here - just stick to the RED color issue. I just wanted to mention to you what bother me as well..

The "red becomed purple" thing is really disturbing. It seems that it is typical for this camcorder, at least for the earlier serial numbers. Therefore I would like to get comments from anyone that recently has bought this baby.

A Sony sales guy looked really puzzled in the locan Sony shop when I connected my HC1 (with his permission) to a good quality component HD monitor. Their red sofa looked pink. Performing this same test on a cheaper Sony Cam produced much more realistic reds... I got from him a name whom to contact at the Sony HQ.

Best regards and a Happy New Year to you all.

Christian

Do you have any pictures that we can look at? I bought my HC1 in july this year and I think that my reds are fairly OK. I just did a test today and took pictures of my binders where there is one that is very red. I think they all looked pretty good. I can't say that it's the best camera in the world but considering it's a consumer camera it provides pretty good result.

Sample images for comparison..
 

Hej Fredrik !

I cannot post any attachments here. How can I get that enabled? Do I have to be a senior member before getting that right? I

f you send me your email address I will send you some test images of a Gretag Macbeth color card. It would be nice to find a similar item that we both could shoot under same lighting conditions to compare...

Christian

I sent you my e-mail address. Unfortunately I don't know how I can shoot those colorcards.

You can download the pictures from this folder:

http://www.apollologic.com/dvinfo/hc1colors/

Warranty period ends - HC1E goes for checkup
 

Hi,

The red color problem has really bothered me, even if I have been quite quiet on this subjet for a while.

I have been able to manage, avoiding dark shooting and doing some postproduction color correction. However, the problem is still there.

Now when the warranty is ending I am giving Sony a try to fix the problem. Hope to get the HC1E back until x-mas...

How have you all been coping with this problem?

Regards,

Christian

That is interlacing. It should appear everywhere where there is motion. Deinterlacing doesn't remove it partially but completely. Here's a couple of movie files I've done with the hc1 and I love it. I live in Helsinki too. No problems with color accuracy, except bright reds are a bit pinkish.

Action/Fight scene. Testing of the rolling shutter and some color correction to make it look older and more filmic. About 200 megs in wmv format.

http://hmcindie.pp.fi/suomenlinna/En...%20quality.wmv

Some fireworks testing. Really lowlight at times.

http://www.hmcindie.com/movies/Ilotulitukset%202006.avi

Shooting an action scene under big lights.

http://www.hmcindie.com/movies/Taikk...%20quality.wmv

etc. This camera is great and it gives for example the dvx100 a run for its money. Except in low light and bright reds.

Uh oh! The pics always look way different in color compared to the video. It uses a different scanning style when taking pictures, for example there is no rolling shutter when taking pics.

http://hmcindie.pp.fi/esim/

Couple of small videocaptures from the hc1. The reds on the shirt don't look too bad. Atleast on my monitor.

Moikka Mikko !

Thank's for your input. You are right, the stills are taken under very different circumstances than live video. However, the problem shows up on both. Therefore I decided to use stills for comparison, just to test the sensor's function, not the video codec's...

COMPARED to my Canon MVX2i the HC1E reds are lousy. Sony is known to bee little on the blue side in general, but the reds (at least in my unit - please Sony - fix it) are really lousy.

Mikko - what NLE program are you using with your HC1?? Nice video clips you provided :)

Regards,

Chrisse

I'm using Abode Premiere 2. Works pretty well. I've edited everything natively.

HC1 back from service - red color issue solved!
 

Hi,

Finally - after waiting for almost a year - I sent my HC1E for service. The reason was the poor red color rendering, and unsatisfactory color saturation in general. And the warranry was just ending.

The camera did its round-trip from Helsinki to France in only 4 days - quite a remarkable achievement. Great work Tele Niinimaa Vantaa!! And Sony :)

The firmware was updated and the HC1E recalibrated. Best of all - the repair that I suspected would be just another unnecessary trip payed off - THE PROBLEM IS NOW FIXED!! The colors are now more vivid and natural - compared to the washed out bluish color rendering before.

What a great day today is - finally this beast lives up to the last expectation that I had before I made the decision to purchase.

You CAN live with the rolling shutter, the artefacts produced by it are normally so subtle that they go unnoticed - if you do not know where to look for them.

I thought that Sony would have fixed the zoom speed issue at the same time - but no. The zoom lever is still ridiculously fast as its slowest. Well - I am shooting mostly using a LANC-enabled tripod where I get 24 second zooms...but it would have been nice if they would have fixed this at the same time - it is just a software issue.

I could afford to wait this long for the service, since I have not been shooting during this summer. Some earlier recordings with poor reds I was able to fix during post edit. This very late update guaranteed that I got now the latest firmware available. Probably there are no newer ones coming for this discontinued cam.

To proove my experience and for you to see yourselves, I have added couple of stills (of a professional GretagMacbeth Color checker chart) - taken with the HC1 before and after the service. The color behaviour in the HDV and DV modes are very similar. I have just included the stills for the sake of simplicity and size:

Before the service:
HC1 OLD AUTO: Fluorescent low light condition, FULL AUTO
HC1 OLD MANUAL: Fluorescent low light condition, manual WB
HC1 OLD INDOOR: Fluorescent low light condition, Indoor WB

After the service:
HC1 FIXED MAN FL LL: Fluorescent low light condition, manual WB
HC1 FIXED AUTO: 2700K 2000Lx Halogen lighting, auto WB
HC1 FIXED INDOOR: 2700K 2000Lx Halogen lighting, indoow WB
HC1 FIXED AUTO WB+2 AE-1: 2700K 2000Lx Halogen lighting, auto WB but tweaed so that WB+2 and AE-1.


Comparing to my Canon MVX2i the colors are still somewhat "cooler" in the HC1 - but that is typical for Sony. Overall - I am now very satisfied and the difference is remarkable. To be fair, please only compare the pics with each other that are shot in Fluorescent lighting (HC1 OLD AUTO, HC1 FIDEX AUTO FL LL).

To match with my personal taste I have noticed that I get the most natural exposure and color balance (using full auto) if I tweak WB+2 and AE-1. This gives a little warmer tones and avoids the slight overexposure tendency in the HC1. Setting the AE slightly negative also limits the HC1 gain boost at low light levels - not a bad idea at all.

Now I smile again :) Thanks Sony for making my day !!!

Best regards,

Christian

PS: I was so happy that I immediately pre-ordered a Sony PS3 (for my kids - ofcourse ;)

Nice that you got it working! :)

Good News!
 

I have a couple of A1Us which I will be sending in soon. I hope to see a quality increase there as well. Reds are sometimes downright painful IMHO.

What is the process to sending in the HC1/A1 to specifically fix the red problem? I'd like to do the same.

Hi,

I just took my HC1 personally to the local Sony service - together with my purchasing receipt and warranty card. I explained that I brought it to the service due to the poor red color rendering. The warranty was still valid for a couple of days. That was all. No other questions were asked - I got the feeling that the guy at the other side of the counter knew about this from before - just a feeling however. The cam was shipped to France (where the european head office for servicing this camcoder seems to be located).

5 days later I got the HC1 back with the info that the firmware was updated and the camera completely checked. Nothing else was revealed in the official papers. And I paid nothing - obviously.

My color card test before and after clearly shows the improvement. Needless to say, I see the difference by my naked eye shooting any red colored object. The reds are not as saturated at low light as in other CCD based cams that I have , but at least the lilac overall tone has disappeared. Colors are more vibrant and natural, especially in the red-yellow range.

Probably only a small number of HC1's suffer from this problem. I am now convinced that those units that does have this problem CAN really be fixed. That's good news for those of you that struggle with the same problem. This is a great way for Sony to earn back the trust and it's reputation for quality. And for us to get the full performance from this wonderful cam.

Hope my experience helps those of you with similar problems. Would be nice to hear other similar stories. Please keep me posted :)

Best regards,

Christian

Where would we find where the local Sony service center be in the US?

Hi

I Googled the Sony Service pages and found a toll free number: 1-800-222-7669. Try that.

Probably they can lead you in the right direction for a service location. The company from where you bought your CAM (if domestic) might give you also valuable information. Evern the warranty cards sometimes lists service points in different locations...

Should not be a big problem...

Christian

I don't have my warranty cards/boxes/etc. with me right now, but I bought my camera in April 2006 - how long does the warranty last? I didn't register, so I didn't receive the extended 6 months or whatever offer that was, but I should be able to do that anytime right?

Hi Alex,

Here in Europe a normal warranty is one year from the day of purchase. That is why they want to see your receipt since very few dealers anymore stamps of handles the warranty card anyhow.

You do not have to register here for anything. Your system over there might be different. Probably you are much wiser after a call to a Sony representative :)

Christian

Actually it might be more than one year. Especially if you bought it as a consumer. Even though a manufacturer say there is only one year warranty it might actually be longer by law and then the manufacturer can say whatever... at least that's the case in Sweden... Ironically very few know about it and figure there is a 1-year warranty on everything...

Okay, I am in the US so I called the 1-800-222-7669 and spoke with an agent. She ran me through the usual troubleshooting routine and I explained to her that this is a known issue with Red color reporduction and general color saturation (and that I would like to get my camera firmware upgraded to correct the issue). I purchased the camera in April 2006. She explained that there is no known issue in their system for the HDR-HC1 and that the best that she could do, was to have me ship the camera to their service center in Connecticut to be examined (for which I would pay shipping to/from and labor....you see the camera only has a 1-year parts warranty and 90 days labor). I politely declined. So, back to the issues at hand.

How do I know what version firmware my camera has (is there a way to get into a service menu?

Why doesn't Sony US acknowledge this issue?

Anyone in the US have any luck getting their camera firmware upgraded by Sony (particlarly agter the 90-day labor period ran out)?

Does mackcamera have a way of doing this? They might be able to help.

Hi Alex,

It is daydreaming to believe that such a thing would be acknowledged by Sony, or a service representative. They probably actually never head of it, at least officially. I myself contacted here locally Sony people that should have known about this issue, but I just got the same answer as you, "send it to the service to have it examined". 5 days later I picked up a fixed HC1. I am lucky to live just 5 miles from that location.

I have ordered a service manual and will immediately tell you how to check the firmare version(s). That migh take still some 2 weeks.

Happy Holidays !!!

Christian

Keep up posted Please!
Did you have to pay for servicing? I thought if it was under warranty you still had to pay $125.00 or something?

Hi,

Nope - I paid nothing. A warranty is a warraty - right? I understand that in some circumstandes you have to pay for the shipping... but not for the warranry repair.

I will keep you posted on how to check the firmware, but I am on vacation until the 10th of Jan so do not expect anything before that :(

Merry X-mas !!!

Christian

Hc1 Red Color Problem Solved
 

I own hc1, fx1, and fx7.

HC1 doesn't do strong red.
Here's how i fixed it. bring it up in vegas (for my vegas version, i have to bring it in through capdvhs) and did the color correction on it to match that of images taken by fx7 (fx1 is a bit too reddish). add video event fx, add color corrector (one that has three circles on it) and incrase low land mid levels (not high) to about 1/3s way up to red (90 degree is red).

and now it is PERFECT.

This is MUCH better way to fix than to meddle with firmware or settings.
in the past, i tried color saturation +2, +3 during filming. But that just offsets entire red channel and alias with greens.. so that didn't work.


in similar fashion, I lower reds in fx1. i try to make color look like fx7 on all three.

thanks for that - but if a firmware is available it is a good option because it means less messing around in post.