You should get the most coating layers as possible, so the Hoya Super-Multicoated (12 layers) UV filters if you want a filter.

And what's the wide-angle converter you're using Poppe?

Floris - are you sure you really need a UV filter? OK, if you're off on a dusty safari or you're about to film sticky-fingered, inquisitive children, go ahead - fit one. Otherwise any filter you fit generally lessens the effective hooding of the front element as well as introducing more flare. It's mighty hard keeping both surfaces of the glass spotless. We're working at very short focal lengths indeed and it's all too easy to bring imperfections into near focus.

tom.

I'm not sure which one of those is Pro1. Maybe Pro1 name is used only in Europe market, don't know. I ordered it here: http://www.maitolaituri.tv/product_i...72&language=en
It is a good filter, but quite hard to clean. But so are all other multi-coated filters too.

Edit:
>> And what's the wide-angle converter you're using Poppe?
It's a Sony VCL-HG0737Y lense. I really like it, but still A1's picture quality is best without any extra lense.

Ok, so I guess I won't need an UV filter then. I am also looking at a polariser, which I think is very difficult to achieve in post, am I right?

I am currently debating about which Lens Hood I should get. I have a HDR-HC1E with the Sony Wide-Angle lens like almost everyone else. If I buy the Cavision LH77, how do I protect my front element when I do not use the camera? Another problem is that the shipping costs to The Netherlands for the Cavision LH77 are $45, which almost doubles the prize.

Maybe there are other alternatives?

I am going on a two-week trip to Italy in two months and I want to make sure I have a proper setup. At this moment I have a:

- Sony HDR-HC1E
- Sony VCL-HG0737Y
- Rode NTG-2 Directional Microphone
- Spider Brace 2
- Manfrotto tripod
- Sony NP-QM71D battery
- Sony NP-FM50 battery

I need information on:

- Lens Hood
- Cleaning Kit
- Charger
- Bag for in the field (comfortable to carry, but big enough for most of my stuff, one that I can carry for like 6 hours on my back/shoulders.

I am not sure if I need any filters but considering the sunny weather in Italy (especially the golden fields in Sicilly), I am almost 100% confident that I need a polarising filter. Furthermore, I am not sure if I agree with all of you that filters really degrade the image quality noticeably. Professional photographers like Ansel Adams and many others after him have always used a wide-array of filters and that appearently has not degraded their work to a big extend. I agree that I do not necessarily need an UV filter, and that many classic filters have been replaced by post-production. But when exposing, I think it is nice to see the effect of a polariser.

But maybe I am wrong so please fill me in. I will only put the filters on when needed of course, otherwise it does not make any sense.

I hope everyone can answer my questions. This is one of the best topics I have encountered on any forum. Keep the discussion going!

Well I, for one, agree with you. I use polariser very often on my DV cam and in the right sunny bright conditions it can really add amazing punch to your footage. Almost ALL still photos that you see in travel brochuers to sunny places are shot using polarisers. I use polarisers for my still cams too. You can choose the amount of pol.effect you want by rotation. Max. effect is when you are physically oriented so that you are shooting approx. 90degrees to the ray's of light. Not much pol.effect at all when light is coming from directly behind you or directly in front of you.

Also it helps cut through water reflections, which helps saturate seas / lakes to nice green / blue hues.

I'd take one, and take a UV filter too, and hang the purists..
Use them, check the footage, if you like it, then do it. Simple as that. Better to have them with you and not use them, than not to have them with you and wish you'd got them.

You're right - polarising filter effects are very difficult and time consuming to replicate in post, and sometimes (the reflection in water issue) impossible. But what travel brocures etc show you are snatches in time, and your movie will be a running timeline - two quite different things.

I've used a polarisor and simply turning 90 degrees for your next shot will bring continuity headaches galore (you know how polarisors work?). Talent won't be best pleased at all the life and shine being taken out of her hair, and skin tones take on an unnatural dullness. Removing the sheen from things isn't always a good idea.

Now to Mr Ansel Adams. He was working with ''chips'' that measure 10" x 8". Your 1/3" CMOS measures 4.4 mm x 3.3 mm (think 1/8th inch and you're there). THAT's why using filters is so different for us both. We're using focal lengths of 3 mm, Ansel was using more like 250 mm. Guess which filter will be more in focus?

OK, grads are probably more useful than polarisers, though with such short focal lengths you'll have to be careful over hard and soft grad choices. Also I'd say don't use filters at all when you use the wide-angle. Yo'll be adding three extra elements to the Zeiss line-up - so don't add yet another.

But then again you don't want to allow your HC1 to shoot at a smaller aperture than f/4 if you can help it. The automatic internal ND will soak 3 stops, but if it gets brighter the aperture blades will close down to f8. Not good for sharpness. To avoid this in sunny Italy it might be best to invest in a super multi-coated ND8.

Lens hoods will get in the way of your pop-up flash, but then again, so what? Try and get an aspect ratio hood - especially if you'll be shooting 16:9.

Will the Rode NGT-2 plug in ok? As the internal mics are so difficult to wind-shield, a small stereo unit fitting that special shoe might be an idea for out-and-about footage. You can then wind-sock it more easily.

tom.

I am planning on buying the Rode Deadcat Wind Muff. So that will solve all my outdoor audio problems.

With the Cavision LH77, how to I protect my front element? Does it come with a cap or something like that or do I need to take it off all the time?

Finally, does anyone have recommendations for a good bag for field-use, which can be carried comfortably for like 6 hour walks in Italy.

About filters, I have been looking at these:

Tiffen 82mm Special Effects DV Kit (Color Graduated ND.6, Pro Mist 1/4, Enhancer, Gold Diffusion F/X 1/2 and Soft Pouch)
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/cont...goryNavigation

Hoya 82mm Neutral Density ND 8x (HMC) Multi-Coated Glass Filter
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/cont...goryNavigation

The Polarisers are really expensive. If I would go for the best, I am looking at around $329. I am not sure if that's worth it.
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/cont...goryNavigation
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/cont...goryNavigation
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/cont...goryNavigation

Is it also possible to use a filter system on the HDR-HC1E/A1, so you can use 3x3 filters or something in that direction and up to four of them at a time?

Edit:

I forgot to ask if other camera's like the XLH1, VX-200 etcetera also take 82mm filters? If am paying so much for filters, I want to make sure that it is for a long-time.

I think many of us will find this interesting. It is cheaper as well as at B&H, so you do not need to go through Cavision.

Dang, I'm always too early. First I get my Sony Y lens for $40 too much, and now the LH77 for too much (just arrived yesterday).

In any case, my review of the LH77 is pretty negative. Frankly, I'm kind of tired of many people toting their new product as "oh, it's so great," confusing readers like me. Then when I actually get the product, turns out its not so great.

The LH77 I got is deformed. Looking at the rubber, I can tell there was some manufacturing defect and it seems like the rubber was a bit melted or something (slightly, but it's there). Furthermore, the rubber is bent so that it's not a rectangle, but more like a shape with three straight edges and a top that cuves down. Finally, the screw-on system is horrible. You have to screw it on pretty tight for it to stay on the Y lens. I had it fall off while shooting yesterday. The problem with tightly screwing it on is that the screw pushes in more, which pushes the lens hood AWAY from the Y lens. This creates a gap/hole on one side, which looks ugly. It also slightly distorts the shape of the lens hood as well; I'm not sure if screwing on a filter will work well (though it might, haven't tried it). If you look at Adam's custom A1 thread, there is one picture that actually shows this gap between the lens hood and the Y lens.

But which other options do we have? Only the Century Optics hood, which is $159 and thus a lot more expensive, plus it requires a step-up ring.

True, but still I wish I would have known about these problems beforehand. Sure, overall, it might be a good product and especially for the price, but that's what's annoying - people think they made the best buy in the world and are so pleased with themselves that they only tell others the good points, leaving out all the negative aspects.

Another thing about the LH77 - you can't use a lens cap/protector with it. You can attach 82mm filters, but then your filter will be unprotected.

Some good points there I think Tom. Yes i know how polarisers work but i hadn't I admit thought about continuity issues with 'proper' films and yes i can see that is going to be a real PITA ! But for Floris' purpose, she's basically shooting holiday footage so continuity isn't really an issue there.
Rode NTG2 or NTG1 will plug straight onto the A1U with XLR module, and the DeadCat is one-size-fits-all for the Videomic, NTG1, NTG2.
One thing Floris - windshields won't *entirely* solve wind-noise. If the wind is strong enough you will still get wind-rumble, just a lot less of it. Something to be aware of. Can't remember which mic you're taking (guess it's NTG1 or NTG2) but i'd advise to use the low-cut filter (if they have one, Videomic does) all the time outdoors to reduce handling noise and wind-rumble. I think the Rode's are anyway *slightly* bass-heavy (if anything) so the low-cut filter is no bad thing at all.

floris - i tend to use 37mm pol.filter and attach it between the camera and the WA lens. A LOT cheaper than 82mm for sure as you've found out looking at the prices of an 82mm hi-quality pol.filter. Bit of a tough pill to swallow that one, so i'd go for a 37mm one. I don't see why you can't put it between camera and lens.

Polariser's secondary effect is that it absorbs about 1 - 1/5stops of light so that's no bad thing in very bright sun, as Tom remarked, it'll keep the aperture getting too small and getting diffraction effects. Also a pol or ND filter can help you get a larger aperture for shallow DOF effect for portrait shots etc. which can look very nice. (Portrait Program AE mode good for this).

Having said all that, i have to now agree with Tom i think as 2 days ago i was shooting a late afternoon (bout an hour or two before sunset) stuff in semi-light / semi-shadow with a 0.7x WA lens and i'd left the pol.filter on (forgot to take it off to be honest). When i finally remembered to take it off, i could actually see that the shot was higher contrast and a bit more punchy without it - it was a pretty subtle difference i have to say, but i think it was there. I actually lost my original multi-coated polariser and so i had to get what i could at the time and got a rather cheaper one simply cos that's all that was available that day and i needed one immediately. Next time i'm passing a decent photo-store i will try to get a Hoya or B+W multi-coated one to replace my current 37mm one (Maruami ?! something like that..)

Back to the late-afternoon thing : It wasn't a not-enough-light-with-the-polariser-on issue as it was still pretty bright, and i checked Data Code and the numbers were fine, no gain or anything. - but definitely a slight contrast reduction with polariser on. First time i've seen that i think. I'll still defnitely use it in bright sunny conditions but remember to take it off when you don't need it.

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=65497
I tried to tell you about this but I didn't mention the gap on one side. Sorry for that. I inserted a little piece of black fabric (about 3cm) under the screw side and there is no visible hole anymore.
I definitely agree with you that LH77 is pretty "toyish", but I still think it's worth of money and the only real way to add filter to Y-lense.

Floris
First off do a little preparation. I suggest reading Barry Braverman's book "Video shooter". Video has very little exposure lattitude, 3 stops max. Don't even compare video to Ansel Adams. As Barry says" avoid midday if at all possible ". If you chose not to do so, then you must use filters. I carry ND .3, .6,. 9 , a polarizer, and a UV as standard equipment. I use the Cokin matt box with adaptor that will fit your Sony lens. Believe me, you must get good video first before post, otherwise you will have great problems.
Dkane

Does anyone else have experience with this? If I am correct, the Sony Y conversion lens manual states that they advice not to place a filter between the camera and the lens because it iss less durable (I guess more pressure on the filter thread of the camera and the lens). But hey, Sony does say other thigns that makes no sense so I prefer some feedback from users. I also thinkt hat with a filter between the lenses, there is less chance on dirt and glare because the fitler is not the front element in the line.

Furthermore, I am still puzzled about the lens hood. I was about to purchse the LH77 but no I am not sure if it is the best option. I heard about this matt box in combination with a step-up ring, but I guess this won't work with the wide-angle lens as it has no filter thread. I just wished sony had given the Y lenses a filter thread, which would have solved so many problems.

I might sell the official Sony lens and get Raynox conversion lenses instead which do have a filter thread. But I would like to get more feedback on Raynox lenses as only one person mentioned them in this entire topic.

I am looking forward to your responses.

I have read many books on cinematography, shooting video and the lower lattidue of video compared to film and film compared to the human eye. However, I need to learn more about filters and how to get the most out of my video but that will need to go through practice.

I have heard that I can use the Cokin matt box on the 37mm thread of the HDR-HC1 with a step-up ring, but what about my wide-angle lens? It has no filter thread or it takes 82mm filters with the LH77 lenshood. But it appears to me that it is thus simply not a workable solution.

Sorry double post.

Dennis nails it: You've got to get good footage up front to even consider doctoring it in post. Beware of in-field filtration as it can be mighty hard to unfilter later. Grads are usually good because they contain the vast exposure difference between sky and a shadowed wall, for instance. With video you don't have many stops to play with.

I've owned a Raynox 6600PRO and tested various other Raynox lenses. I've found them all to be good, if not the best out there. The 0.66x PRO had amazingly little barrel distortion - far less than the 3x more expensive Century 0.6x, for instance. So I give Raynox the thumbs up, and their range is huge.

http://raynox.co.jp/english/video/hd7000pro/index.htm

tom.

Tom, I have a few questions for you. First of all, how does the Raynox HD 7000 Pro compare to the Sony Y lens (which I own)? For one, it has a filter thread which I think is very welcome.

Another question I have. I am thinking about buying the HD 7000 Pro and HD 2200 PRO (Telephoto). However, the front filter threads are a little bit different (82mm and 62mm I believe). Can I use a step up ring from 62mm to 82mm or will this cause vignetting problems?

I am planning on buying the slim multi-coated Hoya filters.

Another question I have: will it cause any problems if I use filters between the HDR-HC1 and the Sony Y wide-angle lens?

Although it has a 'filter thread' I'd warn against using it as such. Look on it as a hood thread instead.

I haven't tested the HD7000PRO Raynox but I'd hazard a guess and say it was a fine lens, if only because it carries a proper maker's name and comes from a stable of fine lenses.

You'll always be safe from vignetting if you fit a filter that's too big for the front element, and use a step-up ring. The downside is the increased cost and it tends to look a bit silly on the smaller thread.

So why do you want to add more glass? Modern coatings are much more resistant to damage than coatings of old, and more glass is always more flare.

There should be no problem using filters between the zoom's front element and the converter lens, but I wouldn't. It moves the converter lens further away and it's then more likely to vignette the corners of the (full) frame. Don't forget you're not seeing the full frame in the v'finder or on the side-screen.

tom.

So you're saying to skip the UV/ND, etc, filter altogether? Back in my SLR days we always had a protection glass up front unless I was in the studio. Even on my Sony F707 digicam I have one.

Of course, if I've read the other threads correctly, one can't fully use the hood with anything inbetween it and the lens. Granted, I don't have the cam yet and have never even held or seen one in person. Just a few more weeks though, fingers crossed :).

Back in your SLR days (and back in mine too, Darren) we were using huge 36 mm x 24 mm 'chips'. We used focal lengths in the region of 50 mm. Now we have tiny 4.4 mm x 3.3 mm chips with 7 mm focal lenths giving us the same angle of view.

Think on this. If you'd fitted a 7 mm focal length lens to your 35 mm SLR, can you imagine what the dof would be? Even at max aperture it could easily encompas both surfaces of any filter you'd attached, especially if you were doing close-up work.

Now look at your HC1 (to be). If you fit a 0.5x wide-angle converter you're shooting at focal lengths of 2.5 mm. 2.5 mm! Hold your fingers this far apart (1/8th inch) and just realise what we're saying.

At these focal lengths you'll need filters that are quite literally spotless (an impossibility, of course), otherwise you're going to see the dust, finger prints, whatever in your footage. You'll also start to lose definition at anything smaller than f/4 because of diffraction.

Now to the question of the hood. It's a sensible 16:9 design that shields the front element the best it can. Fit a filter and what happens? Just when you need the hood the most (because you've added another piece of glass with its two reflecting surfaces) you find you cannot use it.

Filters are fine, don't get me wrong. But they're not fine (or practical) when using short focal lengths on camcorders with tiny chips. Your F707 probably has a chip 4x the area of the one in the HC1, remember.

tom.

Which hood are we talking about?

Also, Stu, can you tell me if you have encountered any vignetting problems with your HC1 and 37mm filters?

Very, very good points Tom. Thanks for the info!
So I suppose one can assume those are the reasons for Sony's decision to put a lens cover in the hood (BTW, I'm talking about an A1 that I hope to get in a few weeks).

The lens cap in the hood idea (PD170, Z1, A1 etc) is really a seller's delight. It compromises the efficiency of the standard hood (look at the PD150's to see what I mean) because you lose the shadowed interior, but I'm pretty much always this fussy. The 'snap-snap' hood demo on the shop counter will have buyers pushing aside the Panasonic and Canon and JVC, just to give this Sony gizmo a go.

But back to UV filters. If Sony thought the lens would be 'better' by adding another element in the line-up then they'd have added it. The front zoom lens element of the Canon GL2, the VX2100, the PD170 (to name but a few) are all 'protected' by the plane-parallel glass that forms the VAP OIS assembly, yet folk want to add yet ANOTHER piece of glass to protect that. And another to protect the very expensive S-HMC UV Hoya? When will it all end?

tom.

Yes Tom's right - DOF on these cams is inherently pretty huge.
The camera can and will actually focus on the surface of the front-element at WA settings if it's dusty and you're shooting into the sun and the dust flares. You can get round that a little by shooting in Program AE Landscape mode, but far far better is to regualrly (start of every day and occasionally thru the day) check the front-element for dust / debris.

Floris - *slight* vignetting at extreme corners but *only in the photo mode*. Video mode is fine, no vignetting. Photo mode doesn't bother me as i have a 'proper' digicam.

It will end when there is a transparent, good front element that can act as a lens protector by being cheap. In other words, I'm not going to protect a $100-150 lens with a $100 filter. It makes absolutely no sense, almost protecting something dollar for dollar. I want something around $20-50 (but still good quality) to protect something worth $100-150.

That's what I figured. I did contact BH with the filter question and they recommended the following to me:

Hi Floris van Eck: ok here are the model # of the filters that we recommend
fo the circular Polarizer # BWKCP37 $ 89.95
for the neutral density # BW10237 $ 24.95
for the uv BWUVMC37 $ 39.95

I might skip the UV as I figured it is not really needed, and if it is needed, only at the front element of the wide-angle lens, thus on the LH77. I might get a $35 UV filter to protect the wide-angle lens, which I will take off when I am going to shoot footage, so it is only for protection purposes. But I guess that with a good bag, and the way I handle products, there is a small chance that the lens will get seriously damaged. But you never know.

Can someone tell me if you can leave a filter attached to the LH77 and then take it off the camera or do you need to remove the filter first?

1) Which front element do you mean, that of the camera, filter or of the wide-angle lens? Does manual focus solve this (I guess so)?

2) Ok. That's good to know. I never use the photo mode because I, like you, use a digital still camera for that -- much better quality.

The reason I want a filter as protection different from a lens cap is because I want to film in dusty/dirty conditions such as out at sea.

The front-glass element of the WA 0.7x convertor. When shooting into the sun (or approx. in that direction) any dust on the surface of the WA lens will reflect the sunlight ("flare out") and the camera *could* focus on that instead of the actual shot. (at wide-angle end, not telephoto).
Either way it'll be visible so keep the front of your WA lens very clean.
Manual focus would indeed fix it, but that's a bit of a pain to be constantly adjusting manual focus. Just keep all lens surfaces clean, and if you're shooting in low-ish bright sunlight, use your other hand to shield the front of the lens from the sun. You should easily be able to see on the LCD screen when you need to do this.

I have decided to opt for 37mm filters as they, as confirmed by Stu, show no vignetting in video mode (only a little in photo mode). Furthermore, it makes the set up cheaper and above all, lower in weight/size. A matt box or something would make it far less portable. The HDR-HC1 is a learning camera for me which I intend to use for learning purposes to get familiar with cinematography, editing and thinking about visual motion. I am addicted to getting everything, which I figured is not needed. With some filters and a good day/field bag and some cleaning materials, I am ready for my vacation as well as the documentary about my grandmother. The polariser is a certainity, as well as the ND filter. I am only not sure if I go for the 4x, or for the 2x, 4x and 8x ND filter. Not sure if it makes much difference. BH recommended me the 4x filter, which seems logical to me.

The 4x ND will soak 2 stops and is probably the most useful to have. Your HC1 has an automatic internal ND to stop the lens shooting at apertures smaller than f/8, so if it's bright that internal filter could well do with some help in the form of the 4x you'll screw up front. Of course you can stack filters but it's not recommended.

I have one other question. The circular polariser can be turned around for a different effect. If it is attached to the Sony Y lens, how do I turn it around? I do not completely understand how this mechanism will work.

The polariser will take some getting used to. It'll soak 1.5 stops and it's polarising effects are determined by where you stand in relation to the sun and where the filter is rotated to on your camera. It's a bit of suck-it-and-see, but the good thing is our v'finders are wysiwyg devices working at taking aperture, so you do get some indication of what the filter is doing for you.

tom.

As always, many thanks for your great advice. When I have all my gear and did some shoots / productions, I hope to give some feedback back to this board as everyone here has been of great value for me right from the start.

I have on more question. If I manually set the shutter speed to 1/30 of a second, the camera cannot control the light with the shutter anymore, but only by changing the iris, or in dark situations, increase gain. In a place with lots of sun, like italy, it seems logical to me that I do need the 8x ND filter as well, as the 1/30 shutter speed is pretty low. I remember that with my DSLR, in bright sunlight, 1/1000 - 1/2000 is a common shutter speed. That's 6 or 7 stops of sunlight from the 1/30 I might use.

Why are you shooting at 1/30th sec? You're NTSC, right? Shoot at 1/60th unless you're after some special effect. You'll get better quality footage.

Your camera has an inbuilt ND that will soak 3 stops. The aperture blades close to f/4 as it gets brighter, then they stay at f/4 as it gets even brighter, the internal ND pretending that the lens is going to f/5.6, then f/8 then f/11. If it gets brighter still, the aperture starts to close again, going to f.5.6 (equal to f/16) then f/8 (its smallest actual aperture, equal to f/22).

It's for this reason that I believe an ND4 will be all that you require. Alternatively you could up the shutter speed to 1/125th sec and not bother with external ND.

Have fun in Italy. I've been to Venice three times and you just can't stop shooting, believe me.

tom.

You screw polarizer onto camera, then the Y lens onto the polariser (slightly fiddly as half the polarizer is fixed, and half is free-rotating.) and so to rotate the filter, you simply rotate the Y lens. Make sure that the filter is screwed in *relatively* well onto the camera. you do not want to be inadvertantly *unscrewing* the pol filter when you´re rotating the Y lens and have the Y lens drop to the ground....
But don't overtighten the pol filter - its quite easy for it to go on TOO tight and then a real PITA to get off. I know - i´ve sliced skin off my fingers trying to get a too-tight filter off before. If you can - buy a 37mm filter-wrench before you go. It´s simple and effective. Try B&H or a good photo store as cheapNcrappy stores won´t have a clue what you´re talking about !
If you can´t get a 37mm filter wrench i recommend a thickish rubber band round the pol filter before you attach Y lens. Helps get it off if it´s stubborn.

Max. polarization is when you are shooting about 90degrees to the sun´s rays. i.e. sun is approx. left or right of you. When sun is directly in front or directly behind there´s little pol effect. But you just shoot any angle you want - it´s not an exact science at all.
Rotate the filter slowly and look at LCD and you should see the effect vary.
Don´t forget to take the filter off after day shoots - if you´re doing evening / twilight filming there´s no pol effect and all it´s doing is absorbing 1.5stops of light which is not good (especially with A1!) So remember to take it off when sun´s gone. Also there´ll be very little to no effect at all or a cloudy day. Try it out on surface of water (eg a boat trip). It can give good reduction in reflections, making water look deeper /darker / nicer.

Recommend you use all this new gear before you depart. - you want to concentrate on the subject when you're there, not trying to figure out new equipment.

Hey Laurence, or anybody.
I have an A1 and have been trying different matte boxes and sun shades; including the LH77, all of which I am not satisfied with. Century optics looks like they have a nice sun shade, but I can't find the correct step down ring.
Could you please tell me which adapter ring to use with this century sun shade ? http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/cont...=274303&is=REG
Thanks, Lou