Suprised at Sony
 

I've been watching the Sony/Canon threads here for awhile now and I'm a little
suprised that Sony has not come out with any official footage that can be
shared/seen from the new cams... or allow some non-official footage...

If you look at the Canon threads there are excellent samples of footage from
their new cams coming out about the same time as Sony's...

I'm very much impressed with the night shots on the Canon cams...

Why isn't Sony allowing someone to take the same type of shots and letting the folks see what the camera is capable of.... just doesn't seem right

even the Sony sight hasn't been updated... just shows "coming soon"

From what I can tell so far, Sony is lending out a few cam's and the result
is a few future magazine storys,

you can't see footage from a magazine story...

Come on Sony, show us some footage... or at least give the cam to someone that will shoot the footage in different lighting and post it somewhere so we can see it...

Well, the Canon is due out any day now...sometime during October they will be in stores. The Sony V1 is due to be released in December so I assume you won't see very much footage until next month or maybe December. I too would love to see how it performs, but I'm rarely impressed by the first 10 or so clips from any camera. Until someone REALLY knows the camera in and out, they won't be able to get the picture to the fullest capabilities of what it can do.

Good point. When the Z1 came out Sony had a zillion DVDs available almost overnight. Same for the XDCAM HD cameras. I saw the DVDs of both of those long before I ever saw the cameras. Maybe they didn't have a final production model ready before the announcement, which no doubt was timed as a "takeout" announcement--designed to take potential Canon purchasers out of the market until they have something competitive out there.

I don't think any manufacturer has a final production model when they announce it. Canon announced their XH cameras in late July and now they're available in late October. Sony announced theirs in late September and they're suppose to be available in December. So I don't think the timing is unreasonable. Heck, look at the HVX200. It was announced at NAB in April and wasn't available until the very end of the year. The HD100 also had a pretty long availability time.

Let's not forget that making an expensive working prototype, then anouncing it's finished, is one thing. There is a little forgotten hurdle called manufacturing, and doing so on the cheap that will perform as well as the protoype, that folks don't understand. Even in that final phase, some inventiveness, testing, and data collection are needed.

Most companies have engineers dedicated to just this phase of the project. All the tooling, molds and machines have to be designed, built and tested.

Sometimes you'll need extra floor space, and that can mean additional construction, or leasing manufaturing facilities. Yes, some of this is ongoing during the prototyping phase of the camera/object/whatever. However, not everything can be done until the prototype is actually ready.

Taking that into account, you can understand why it takes several months.

We all know that marketing is faster than manufacturing. All this hype is to build momemtum and keep prospective customers eagerly at bay, stalling them from buying something else, in anticipation of getting their hands on one.

I was seriously thinking about getting a couple of Sony Z1U's, until Canon announced their latest offering. So, I can wait a few months. Another good is example is look at how many camera's Red Digital sold, and the thing is still behind plate glass display cases.

Lastly, I would want my camera to have a serial number 00000001. I'm not that eager to be beta tester, so waiting a few months more to work the bugs out, and not on my dime, also adds to duration.

I agree with Peter. Sony said the camera would be available in December, so why not just relax and wait a little longer... it's only a camera ;-) If you need to buy before December then unfortunately the V1 isn't a good option for you anyway.

I'm sure we'll be able to offer some V1 clips for downloading not long before the camera actually starts to ship, just like we did with the Canon XH.

Once I get some clearance on some pieces we shot, I'm sure I'll have several to upload.

That will be great! I am looking forward to it :)

this was shot with a early V1 model.

http://www.hbo.com/docs/programs/baghdader/index.html

Sorry Bob but that's not correct. Baghdad ER was shot with the Z1.

"In 2005, 12-time Emmy winner Jon Alpert and Matthew O'Neill took the Sony HVR-Z1U camcorder to the 86th Combat Support Hospital-the Army's premier medical facility in Iraq-to shoot material for their verite documentary Baghdad ER, which premiered last month on HBO."

Re: http://www.keepmedia.com/pubs/Videog...a=a&bi=17&bp=1

Chris do you read Studio Monthly? In the editors note it says right there that emmy award winning DP took another early model of the V1U with him to Iraq. I'm looking at it right now. Page 4. maybe she is wrong?

I was thinking it must have been a real early model, but that is what is written. It talks about Spot jumping out of planes with his etc, then it talks about Jon Alpert going to Iraq with his V1U

Maybe it's a typo or maybe Jon Alpert is *currently* going to Iraq with a V1U, or maybe "early model" means the Z1, but Baghdad ER was shot in 2005 with the Z1, and the V1 was still on the drawing board back then.

It's a typo. The Editor's comment also says I jumped with the camcorder at 90mph. I'd give my left something or other to fall that slow. My fall rate is 143 mph on avg. ;-)

John did not take the camcorder to Iraq. He did use it for some not-yet-disclosed-shooting for HBO, but he only alluded to it at the press conference, nothing was actually shown for reasons of rights/clearances.

I have 4 hours of V1 video, but I haven't even had time to watch it all and take notes, let alone capture and edit it. Moreover, reverse pulldown software isn't yet available, so I can't even see real 24p. I'm working with Sony to get samples to them. (It really should go to Bluray, but the new Sony BR laptop doesn't ship for a week.)

I will be starting a brief series of "hands on" reports for camcorderinfo.com next week. After working with 30p for over 3 years, I've got to figure-out how to keep quality high while deinterlacing. Suggestions welcomed.

We placed an order for a V1 a few weeks ago and yesterday the Sony man rings us up and asks us why we didn't also order the new Sony HDD recorder, he was so confident we'd "need it" he added it to our order anyway.
Well for the money the HDD recorder thing is a no brainer but why the "need it" part?

My guess is it has something to do with how the V1 writes 24/25p to tape.
Can anyone confirm or deny if any current deck can handle how the V1 write "p" to tape.

I don't think you "need it" but it looks like a good thing to have.

It is a good idea as a back up if something goes wrong with the tape. Or maybe I should say it would be nice to have a tape back up.
Let us know how it works.

I think the "need" solely applies to how he feels your workflow will be.......

Regarding writing to tape, the implication seems to be that whilst the camera will generate 24/25p - true progressive - the recording will be psF, "progressive, segmented field".

The advantage is of psF is that it is compatible with interlace, whilst maintaining true progressive charecteristics. Conversion to and from psF and p is totally transparent, just involving reordering the order the lines are arranged, NOT like deinterlacing or scaling. (Which are far from transparent.)

In p the lines in a frame are arranged 1,2,3,4,5 etc. In psF exactly the same lines are arranged 1,3,5,etc in the first FIELD, then 2,4,6,etc in the other field, then back to 1 again as the next frame starts.

Well the nicest thing about the HDD recorder is it'll hold more than 60mins of footage and that's a huge step up for anyone shooting events in HDV. Also on the V1 you get HDD status feedback in the viewfinder.

Out of interest, what's the advantage of Sony's HDD solution over the Firestore FS-4 HD? Just the display on camera?

Sony's solution seems very expensive in comparison, and I would have thought as the 24/25p stream is "encoded" as 50/60i it would be compatible with the FS gear, no? If all I've gotta do is check the Firestore unit every now and again for a $500 saving I know what I'm doing!

Am I missing something?

When a salesperson tells you that you "need" to buy something -- why didn't you ask him right then "why?"

The Sony HDD senses if it is in free fall (dropped) and withdraws the heads to avoid damage to the disks. Plus it uses the same battery.

We're shooting some cool stuff right now, so when Sony gives us the okay, we'll be throwing it out into the world. Nice little camera, but we're really about to put it through its paces! (grin)

heath

I'd be curious about the handling in run and gun (getting the shot). I just wrapped a four-hour shoot for a medical proceedure with my HC1. It was a mockup so we have time to fuss over framing the shot (i.e. operate on cue).

Unlike my shoulder mounted shooting live attempt a few months back, this ones on the tripod in adequate lighting, the HC1 did the job well. I also had a rented HVX on hand, but was pleased with the HC1 result and could have just used another HC1 for the second angle. So, is the FX7 like an HC1 but with better manual controls?

I think the FX7 is like the FX1, but with HC3-like controls. I think. I know it's more consumer-oriented than the FX1.

heath

The FX7 and V1 are identical except for the usual Sony additions for pros. Of course, no progresive.

They are nothing like either the HC1/A1 or HC3!

I see. I found some picts and it does address much of the manual controls I wish the HC1 had (even for a consumer camera that mimics as a serious one). The pushbutton focus is a dire need. I blew one good shot this weekend when I thought I had focus and did not.

Not to change the subject, but when I compared this little single cmos cam to the HVX pany images, there was no contest. The image of the HC1 just looked better. Even my art director noticed the difference. I should have picked up an HC3 from best buy and used that for my B-cam instead. So my point: $6000 doesn't justify the HVX compared to these small sony cams.

I'm very interested in trying out this cam.

This is the ONE missing feature that has held me back from the HC1 and A1. Unlik the V1's super fast AF -- these need to be manually focussed. One-touch has been on nearly every Sony camcorder. Why remove it?

I just realised the answer -- because the AF is so slow -- ONE PUSH would be too slow! So, Sony was indicating that you really needed to use Manual.

Which means the A1/HC1 may be fine -- although obviously compared to the HC3 it needs lots of light.

Conversly, given how good the AUTO functions are on the V1 -- perhaps the lack of controls on the HC3 is fully acceptable.

Steve, you really like the V1 judging from your posts. Did you already hear from Sony if you are allowed to post some footage?

While I took yesterday off from my film, some of the crew went out and shot some very, very cool stuff with the V1. As soon as I get the okay, I'll post some stuff up!

heath

Heath, it's been about an hour, did you get the ok yet? (Kidding). I'd love to see the results when you do.

Sure. It looks cool. Jon's a great DP.

heath

I only captured some of what I shot -- I ran out of time with the V1. From what I captured I'll pull shots for next Monday's HDV@Work Newsletter. This issue will reveal the "Secrets of 3ClearVid." :)


I also will be pulling shots for a series in Camcorderinfo.com.

And, I need to work more with 24p in EDIUS. If it will add pulldown, I promise I will post that. It looks good playing on my laptop!

In short I'm crazy busy and I leave for Asia in about 3 weeks. Must finish an HDV to PAL DVD project before I leave.

OK, now that we see the FX7 is in stock at B&H and for delivery....

can the testers now release some of the video they took with the V1/FX7 ???

surely the NDR is up now???

Again, I'm a bit suprised at Sony... The FX7 showed up at the exact time that the Canon Cam showed up in stores... but there's plenty of footage showing the capabilities of the Canon.

I did see an internet ad from Sony the other day, " fill in this questionaire " and
get a free V1 DVD... problem was the links wouldn't work for me... :-(

sure would like to see some of the test footage shot with the V1 posted...

thanx

The V1 is not the same as the FX7. I've never held the FX7, so have nothing to post from that particular camcorder.
I've posted a lot of V1 footage, but in the process of branding it so it doesn't find its way all over the web with others crediting themselves for the footage (which happened with the Z1/A1 footage we posted) it damages the quality of the file and we only hear whining. So...you'll have to wait until the V1 starts shipping, I suppose.

Thanx Douglas for being one of the few to post some footage with the V1...

But, we need to see more, low light, high light, inbetween shots....

Sony should have this demo footage on the web site by now... nothin, nada...

The mini site isn't even complete yet...

I guess Sony isn't concerned with the competition... Canon...

Sony never worries about the competition. They will sell more V1 than they can produce. Moreover, the V1 doesn't go on sale until sometime in December.

I have V1 footage, but I see no reason to post anything but .m2t and that's not a practical thing to do. As DSE said, there's a whole heap of issues so it's simply not worth doing.

It's not like you can buy a V1 -- so why worry about it now?

I do not agree with that. On the Canon XH-A1 board, Kaku Ito posted around 25 .m2t files. So yes, it is possible. And when you post native files, what people see is what people get. It is as simple as that.

Sony obviously does not want footage to be released at this stage.

Yes, KAKU ITO, not Canon, released about 25 clips. The problem is, when both the A1 and Z1 clips of pretty decent stuff were released by various folks, everyone bitched and moaned because they weren't the clips that folks wanted. Sony isn't preventing clips from being released; at this point I've got at least 30 hours of V1 footage in various scenarios.
1. I don't have the time to cull, brand, and upload.
2. It's no fun to go through the hassle of culling, branding, and uploading only to hear bitching and moaning about how it's not this, that, or the other thing.
Others and myself uploaded footage from the A1 in dark areas, light areas, high details, etc, and got comments of "oh, that's not dark enough, that's not bright enough to see how the latitude is, and snake skins aren't that detailed."

If Sony wants to pay me for my time to upload footage, then I'd happily do so. It takes a while on a DSL connection to upload a gig of file information, it costs money to host it, and it's frustrating to hear the whining.

It takes time to shoot, capture, compare, choose, brand, and upload for what? The undying whine of the people that aren't happy because you didn't shoot what they wanted to see, or disputing what you actually shot. Simon uploaded shots, got bitched at and argued with. I did the same, and got the same. Where is the incentive?

If I sound a bit bitter, it's likely because I am. After having uploaded footage from 5 different cams in the past 3 years...I think I've gotten perhaps 2-3 "thank you's" and easily 50-60 gripes.