SONY V1U -vs- CANON XH-A1
 

When are we going to see some real side-by-side tests of these two cameras?
I am going to be buying two new cameras in the next month and am still trying to decide on if I should stay with SONY (I currently have a couple FX1's) or go with the CANON. I would prefer to stay with SONY, but of the footage I have seen posted so far, the A1 blows the V1 out of the water. Someone please show me some great V1U footage!

Try these links:

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=83387

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=82027

These are some low light clips I took:

http://www.esnips.com/web/V1Efootage

Yes...I have seen just about every piece of V1 footage posted so far.
I just haven't seen anything yet that makes me want to spend the extra $600 to stay with SONY. From what I have seen so far, the CANON looks much better and costs $600 less. Can anyone give me a reason to get the V1U over the XH-A1?

If you think a Canon XH-A1 is better than go buy yourself a Canon XH-A1, especially since you'll save money too. Both of these cams are very nice and no matter what you choose, you'll still have yourself a very nice cam.

I am trying to make the same decision:

They are both top rate cameras, so it's boiled down to this...

What I don't like about the Canon: Slightly washed out picture as compared to the Sony. Although I know some people like this. Canon camera's since the XL1 have had this look, although as I said some people love it, it's that 80's super 16mm look that used to be common on TV. It seems to be connected to this reddish or brown wash found on all prosumer Canon cameras. Also the pic is more noisy and there's a touch more CA.

What I don't like about the V1: 1/4 chip = less DOF and less light. Wide angle not as wide as could be. Really amateurish controls, no gain or white balance on the camera body, you have to get into menus. I am a run and gun shooter, I like to flick these controls as I am shooting while moving in and out of a building for example.

I must contest those points. The V1 is ergonomically very sound and with the WB setting selected one can alternate between two preset WBs, natural and artificial light settings by simply rotating the push wheel at the rear of the camera.

By using the Exposure 1 setting when the iris is fully open and you've run out of light the iris dial then increases the gain by 3dB steps in a seamless fashion. It's bloody marvellous not amateurish.

Hope that helps

TT

Don't judge the A1 on it's factory set image (which, you're right, looks totally wishy-washy).

There are so many image adjustment settings to control the colour gain, the channel gain, the matrix channel settings, setup, pedestal, etc. that you can get some very strong looking images (or muted, if that's what you like).

There are already a bunch of "recipes" (on this forum) to match the A1 to other cameras or film stocks.

Both the A1 and the V1 produce great images. Personally I chose the A1 mostly because the lens was a more useful range (wider) for the work I do. But I'm hankering after a V1 too (as soon as they fix the issues on the V1E model).

Agree with Alex. With its many gamma and color controls, you can re-tune the default Canon picture. Not trying to influence your decision.

Point of clarification, the Z1 has 1/3 CCDs, not 1/4 chip. I'd have to disagree that the Z1 (or V1) have "amateurish controls" but that's a subjective comment on either side.

I can't resist giving out my opinion... ;-) but opinions aren't facts.

The Canon A1 is better in low light and has a smaller DOF. It is also cheaper, especially once you add the price of a wide angle converter for the V1. Those are about the only things which are not too subjective between the two cameras.

Now for the very subjective:

The washed-out picture of the A1 is easier to tweak in post, and the A1 can be tweaked beforehand (using "custom profiles") to have about any picture you want. I think this is a good illustration of the philosophy between the two cameras:
-the A1 is designed to be set up beforehand and then you film. Like in a movie: you set up the lights, focus, everything, then set up the camera because you know what will happen.
-the V1 is more designed to give a more pleasant picture out of the box and have all controls quick to access at any moment. I think the ergonomics of the Z1 are more consistent (subjective, I said...). Like in a documentary: you don't know what will happen and you must be able to react on the spot. OTOH: people who don't like menus won't like the V1's ergonomics...

Unique example: the gain setting. On the V1/FX7, it is a simple and very good point and click setting (menu). On the A1, you have a dedicated switch, but it can only choose 3 out of 5 settings, so you have to define what settings you will use beforehand, i.e. know whether you will need -3, 0 and +3 or +3, +12, +18...

I chose the A1 BTW (mainly for its better low light image, I needed that). From the Sony, I regret the more straightforward ergonomics (opinion... I said I liked menus, didn't I?), the histogram and the better autofocus.

YMMW, of course... ;-)

Don't get me wrong. They both superb camera's and I'll be buying one, I'd buy both if I could.

Douglas: I should have meant the V1. Not the Z1 in regard to the lack of controls on the body. My mistake. I do think the V1 is lacking here, with my Z1 I can change white balance and gain without even looking while I am filming if neccesary. I can't do that with a V1 right?

Onto the Canon..
I do agree that Canon can be adjusted. Does it have the same kind of colour saturation as the Sony. I mean I really love the Sony broadcast colours? Just opinion my of course.

Oh, yes you can.

If the WB function is selected/highlighted turning the push wheel can select 2 user presets, natural and artifical WB setting. You don't need to take your eyes off the VF or LCD.

In Exposure 1 mode after the iris can open no further just keep turning the iris wheel and gain will be added in 3dB steps up to 18dBs. Again you don't have to take your eyes off the VF or LCD.

It is painless. The camera is not lacking at all and don't be put off that it is not bristling with buttons Sony have employed an elegant solution to that.

TT

I'm a current user of a VX2100, which has the same deal for adjusting the gain with the iris dial after the iris is opened up all the way. The problem with the setup on the VX2100 is that if you are zoomed out and adjust the exposure, it will pick the widest iris possible at that zoom and add gain to it. Then, when you zoom in, your iris may be wider than allowed and you'll see vignetting at the corners. Consequently, to adjust my gain, I've gotten in the habit of zooming in to max to force it to f2.4, adjusting my gain, and then zooming out.

So the question is, is the V1/FX7 on Exposure 1 set up the same way? Its a simple test: go to wide angle, adjust to some positive gain value, and zoom in. What happens to the aperture and gain values?

-Terence

Not so sure. I always have shutter selected on the wheel when I am filming so I can control it manually - I could not imagine having it any other way. So I'd have to go back and select gain or wb in the menu, then go back to manual shutter again.

Simple solution. Buy the XH-A1 then John.

Why anyone would want to change shutter speed during shooting is beyond me. YMMV.

TT

Not sure why you'd want to change shutter during a shot, exposure, yes..shutter?
Regardless, white balance may be assigned off if you need instant access. Don't forget you've got 6 assignable buttons, 3 assignable if you use Shot Transitions.

I change the shutter when filming some types of things. I just shot a concert last night with my A1 and I like to drop the shutter to as low as 1/3 during fast guitar riffs and move the camcorder all over the place, following the beat, and bumping back up the shutter for the chorus, this is experimental, not many people do it, but I love the look.

I work in the news and current affairs business. Not in a studio environment. I might be filming inside a court and then everybody rushes outside into the bright sunshine. I need to keep my eye and camera on the ball so I don't miss that money shot. I might be filming a house fire late at night and then the family arrive on the other side of the street where it's completely dark. You've got to swing around and keep rolling on that.

This means changing things like wb and exposure there and then, even as I am rolling if needs be. I don't have ten seconds to stop and fiddle with menus while the action is taking place. Here you need control over the iris, shutter, wb and gain all the time because the environment is changing and you have no control over it. It's such a pity a great camera like the V1 doesnt take this into account. You'd think it'd be perfect for it.

But John, there are other cameras out there that might suit your needs. I started my career as a camera operator and had very little need to adjust shutter speed during shooting. I'd certainly have cause to change white balance following the reporter/presenter from one lighting type into another.

The V1 is what it is and it is important to point out that it is superior in many other regards to other cameras in its price range. You might gain in one regard and lose in others.

TT

The V1 offers all this. Use ATW set to Intellingent. It will find the correct WB in less than 5 seconds even as you move from room to room.

Use Exposure in Exposure Shift mode. Now the fundamental exposure is set automatically -- and its almost always correct. Gain will be auto added as needed. Then you can instantly tweak up or down to meet your needs using the dial.

For ENG there's really no need to change shutter.

By the way -- the V1's AF is also spot on and faster than you can focus. Plus you can tweak it if it's not exactly correct.

The problem is that folks have been brain washed into using Manual cause they think they need to. There's a reason why the pro ENG cameras have a set of auto functions.

In short the V1 is perfect for your needs. But, you do need to learn how to use it!

Well it's pretty obvious you've never shot professionally.

I can't think any professional who wants control over an image would should on anything other than manual. I have never met any professional camera operator who would share those views of Steve Mullen even shooting with a compact camera.

Auto exposure, auto WB, auto focus and gain "added as needed"???? This has to be the absolute pinnacle of bad practice.

TT

So am I correct in understanding that there is no separate gain switch on the V1?

I don't think I'd ever be happy working with ATW myself, I've yet to find a camera that is totally stable when determining the light temperature.

On the FX1 I was fairly impressed with the auto exposure with exposure-shift, especially when it was set to slow. It was subtle enough to look like a fairly natural iris ramp, but not too quick so it didn't swoop up and down all the time (which was always the problem before). If the V1 works similarly, then I wouldn't be unhappy working that way for ENG - especially given the auto gain.

AF I'd never trust. It's helpful for spot-focussing, but a pain in the arse when it decides that you're actually looking at the wall behind the subject!

I think there is certainly still a case for working as manually as possible. For the V1 the thing that might make it workable for ENG is the exposure shift, with white balance set on the control wheel at the back.

Of course there is a gain switch. Total manual control is possible, but unecessary IMHO.

You can also set a gain Limit, which I set at 12dB. Then I use the histogram function and Zebra at 100IRE. You can't miss getting perfect exposure with minimum noise.

DSE -- do you know if in E1 mode, the V1 always LOCKS the shutter-speed to either 1/60th or 1/48th (depending on frame-rate) -- or does it LOCK it at the last manually set shutter-speed. I think the latter. The manual is unclear.

If it is the latter, then because E1 does lock the control (needlessly in my opinion), one MAY need to set shutter-speed BEFORE entering E1 mode.

The histogram is a great feature.

I would never shoot the way you suggest Steve. In an unpredictable environment you must be in control of the instrument. Anything can happen. You always have to expose for peoples faces and in a typical bad light situation the camera will always take the average which simply is not good enough for news standards.

On my Z1 I can change wb without looking in a heartbeat just by flicking that little switch on the side. Same with gain when night shooting. I always program my wb for an instant indoor/outdoor jump.

John, from your posts it would appear that you're wanting the V1 to be a replacement for the Z1.
It's not, and wasn't intended to be.
From my perspective, if you're shooting news, I can't possibly imagine why you'd want a progressive camcorder, particularly right now. Most every viewer in the world would go ballistic at max, and get a headache at minimum, watching news shot in 25p with a camera that was moving as quickly as you imply you're moving. The judder just won't be acceptable in this scenario. For indie film and planned moments, or in the hands of someone experienced in shooting 24/25p, it's a valuable tool.

That said, I have to disagree with your feeling that you can't move the exposure settings fast enough.
Currently, we're shooting in the comparitively dark environment of a DC9 and immediately moving to extremely bright outdoor shots moving at speeds that you can't imagine. The V1 manages that all just fine with an assigned button. Not much different than the Z1. However, my shutter speeds are constant. Everything else changes.

Overall, I get the impression you're looking for reasons the V1 isn't the right camera for you. If you're looking for it to be a superior camera to the Z1, or looking for it to have features it doesn't, then it probably isn't, and the A1 is the only other camera in the price class and size that anyone has to offer.
It's a great camcorder too.

V1 vs A1
 

Progressive Scan was the trump card for me in the V1/A1 decision. Almost everything else, I like the Canon better. However, 30P is the format of the future. It is film-like, can be cut with 60i footage, and the camera can be moved more quickly than 24P. Also the apparent resolution is higher than 60i. Think of it this way, it trades temporal resolution for spatial resolution. Most high-end TV productions are now shot on 30P (except for reality shows). Almost all displays sold in the U.S. are now progressive scan displays. All web-based videos are progressive scan. Interlaced days are numbered. For future proofing, I'd rather be capturing a progressive image.

This camera is not the last HD camera any of us will buy. When I get a better quality HD camera sometime in the future, the V1 will cut with it since it will shoot progressive. The A1 will require deinterlacing and thus lower resolution.

Other comments on the V1, there are many things I find frustrating with the V1, but I'm sure there are things I wouldn't like about the A1 too. My guess is that Canon did a slightly better job with ergonomics.

While Exposure 1 setting is cool, I find it useless because it doesn't allow you to adjust the shutter. Why do I want to adjust the shutter? Because indoor I use 1/30 to maximize light. Outside I use 1/60 to minimize motion blur. And it takes too long to switch between Exposure 1 and full manual.

The white balance sucks on the V1. It's complicated and poorly designed. Why they used a switch for zebra settings that I never change and a button for white balance is just poor design. That being said, you can use the white balance well once you get used to it. I leave it in preset and tweak it from there manually.

I don't see how an extra $500 (or $1000 with the wide angle adapter) should be a decision maker for you. If it does what you want, you buy it. Both cameras are relatively cheap.

Er... the canon does progressive....

24f is 24p and 30f is 30p.

The resolution hit on the Canon in "F" mode is 10%, but to be honest it has resolution aplenty.

Most high end productions actually use 24p because they still come from film. 30p is hardly ever used and can be very hard to convert to PAL markets. Stuff in the US is either shot 24p, 60i or 60p. 30p is not the way of the future, 60p is.

The A1 does shoot progressive style of video and the only people that complain about the resolution loss of the F mode are those who have never shot with it.

Obviously you've never shot with a V1 with its wider than usual latitude -- the virtue of CMOS. Modern cameras, both still and video, always get the exposure within a stop or two. Most of the time its spot on.

Once the computer has done its job, you use the Exposure Dial to trim the exposure to taste IF YOU NEED TO. You can both see the exposure and see the histogram as your dial in any correction.

Bottom line you can't do it as fast or more accurately than a computer.

And Tony, you should look at the Auto Modes now available on all the best ENG camcorders. These are available on the V1. Your interest in 25p shows you are not shooting news or sports. I remember when it was claimed AT couldn't be used by a pro race driver.

The V1 is perectly capable of doing better than you can do because it is both faster and more accurate -- if you know how to use it. And, when not to use auto!

Moreover, this debate was settled years ago in the SLR debates on AF. It's silly that video prosumers need to feel they are pros by not using ALL the tools availble to them. Obviously they care more about FEELING they have control than they do about actually bringing home perfect video.

Very high quality television commercials in the US are shot at 30 fps on film. Film shot at 30 fps converts very easily to 60i because it eliminates the need for 3:2 pull-down, eliminates motion artefacts, and is much smoother that 24 fps.

For years the film industry has recommended the use of 30 fps. In fact, in 1988, the SMPTE published a report urging the cinema industry to convert to 30 fps due to the increase in quality of motion rendition, the reduction in flicker, and an increase in perceived definition.

But the motion picture industry has not adopted 30 fps because of the 25% increase in cost of film stock, developing and processing.

However, most experts agree that 30 fps (30p) will eventually be the frame rate of choice, because there is a movement to convert movie theaters to D-Cinema digital projectors. This movement is well under way. Since D-Cinema projectors work with all HD formats as well as 2K, with some supporting 4K, movie theaters won't care which format (frame rate, etc.) the studio chooses to use.

Since 30p looks better, and converts easily to 60i, "digital film" will convert directly to broadcast TV without all the problems discussed above. The same source can be used for Film and Television. The quality of films will increase overall because of this movement.

However this doesn't speak to the Pal market. You are correct. It is very difficult to convert 30 fps to Pal, but most US commercials are only broadcast in the US market.

For filmmakers interested in the Pal market, it is much better to shoot in 24p because the conversion to 25p or 50i is quite easy. So 24p is the most universal format for productions because it can be converted from 24 fps film (24p digital) to NTSC and to Pal.

So those like me who shoot in 24p will have to deal with increased motion artifacts and flicker in the new world of Digital Cinema. The choice of 24p, however, allows us to ship our productions all over the world. Of course, language will always be a barrier in non-english speaking countries, so there is more than 24 fps to consider.

And 1080p60 may be in our future but there are a lot of other things in our future too. However 1080p60 and higher resolution and frame rate cameras are still a little hard to find, right now, at any price. Red has promised one that will shoot up to 4K but it doesn't exist yet.

I hope to see one that I can afford soon.

Please note:
A few posts have required editing as they are inflammatory and bordering on personal attacks.
Please refer to the rules of the forum if you have any questions, guys, and try to have the same respect here as you'd offer in person.

Hi everybody.
I've made a brief test, auto mode 50i only, of the V1. The detail is very fine but I'm a little disappointed with the color palette of this cam. It seems a bit "cold" to me and the red looks oversaturated. To my eyes the image has a sort of unrealistic, vaguely cartoon like look.
I'm very impressed by the Steve Mullen writings and I would like to have some impressions from him about this particular issue. I'm going to take my final decision between the V1 and the Canon A1.
This is my first post so I hope to have done everything right.

I think you misunderstand the role and skill of the camera operator in the workflow chain. The camera operator must provide creativity and consistency neither or which can be emulated by the most "intelligent" auto controls.

One simply cannot allow the scene being shot to determine the WB or exposure that has to be the remit of the camera op.

It is a testament to the V1's monitoring controls i.e. big LCD, Histogram, peaking and zebras that make the automatic functions unnecessary in my view at least. The peaking is so well implemented I have every confidence in my ability to focus. It is virtually impossible to mess up exposure with the histogram and zebras. It's these marvellous tools that set this camera above the others in the price range and combined with sound ergonomics and light compact design makes the camera a winner.

TT

It's a lot more than just 'reality shows'. You can add to that most HD documentaries & theme shows (virtually everything on HDNet), nature shows (Discovery HD, National Geographic HD etc.), talk shows such as Leno, Leterman....I could go on.

Nope, interlaced HD is far from going away. I myself much prefer the look of reality that 60i brings to the screen. To my eyes there's nothing like looking at an HDTV and feeling as if you're looking through a window. Progressive just doesn't do that for me. Each to his own. :)

The scene doesn't determine the settings. The camera's computers do. They do exactly what you do. Evaluate the scene and make settings. With the huge DOF and wide latitude -- neither the camera's auto system or you have much work to do.

Try it.

Turn on AF and AE and ATW. Point the camera anywhere you want. Pan it fast -- slow. Whip pan to close objects and far objects. Let someone walk in front of the camera while shooting. Does the focus change? Nope! Does the exposure change? Nope! Move the camera from indoors to outdoors. ATW will adjust as you move. Watch your peaking and histogram as you do so. You'll find every image to be perfect.

And, yes you can zoom and keep focus although zooming IN must be done slowly than zooming out. But, in fact zooming while shooting IMHO is tacky.

If you see the focus is not exactly what you want -- simply lightly apply YOUR correction via the Focus Ring.

If you see the exposure is not exactly what you want -- simply lightly apply YOUR correction via the Exposure Dial.

Think of it as Fly By Wire. Your goal is to monitor the camera while making corrections as needed.

Come on -- give it try. :)

PS -- you do need to set the correct modes using the menu.

I have given the FX7 a test drive already. I was overwhelmed by it's picture most of the time, it looked like XDCAM I thought. Wide open and moving it seemed to drop resolution off a bit for some reason. Which is why I have been so keen to get my hands on the V1. What you say about latitude increases my desire for it, I saw a small amount of different to be honest - I may be wrong though. I have read your reports to this effect and I'd be really impressed if you could give me a scientific comparison of just how much more latitude it has compared to the Z1 or even the Canon. You know Adam Wilt style test charts? Adams says of the Canon XHA1 "Usable dynamic range, measured with the Stouffer 41-step grayscale target, is on the order of 8.3 stops". How does the V1 measure up I wonder?


The lack of manual control on the V1 is a show stopper for me compared to my Z1. It's a pity because it's nice small camera with a great picture. From what I've seen already, I'd like to have one. I prefer the Sony colours to the Canon look. But the more professional controls on the Canon is what I really need.

There are no missing manual controls on the V1. Same as the Z1, just arranged differently. Same as tha Canon.

I have a feeling this conversation is going to be cyclic unless _you_ decide what factors are most important to you. Don't blame the camera for not meeting your explicit requirements as there are suitable alternative for you.

It is worth pointing out the the PD150 became the de facto compact camera used in UK broadcast from BBC regions, second cam on primetime documentaries and to war zones all round the world. People won Pulitzer prizes with it. The HVR-V1 is the HDV equivalent of the PD-150 but in every regard the HVR-V1 is superior to the PD150 especially in the ergonomics department.

If one can't shoot prize winning material with the HVR-V1 it is a reflection of the operator not the camera. There is nothing missing on the camera that would impact your creativity.

TT