1080I HDV at 24P? at DVinfo.net

Gabriele Turchi · September 19th, 2004, 05:15 PM

Hi guys
I have a question

The FX1 can't capture progressive video becouse don't have progressive scan ccd ,

and i know that the specific of HDV are:
720p
and 1080i

But you think it will be possible that the next camcorder(Canon , Sony ecc....)can capture 24p frame at 1080i resolution Like Cinealta 24pSf?
(Cinealta capture 24p frame at 1080 lines but record it on the tape in 48i field)

It will be 1080i and not 1080p right?
And 1080i is on the specific of HDV

Or we can only(for the moment)have 24//25/30p only for DV and for HDV but at 720 lines?and not at 1080 lines on HDV format?

Thank you very much

Best regards

Gabriele

Barry Green · September 19th, 2004, 08:49 PM

JVC has announced plans to develop a 1080 camcorder that will capture real 24P and write it to tape as 60i, just like the DVX and XL2 do.

However, the price tag is going to be around $20,000... the camera is designed to be an HDV competitor to something like the SDX900.

Nobody has announced plans for 24P HDV in a consumer/prosumer-class camera.

Edwin Hernandez · September 19th, 2004, 09:33 PM

I think it is technologically possible to have 24p HDV on cheaper cameras, it's just a matter of marketing timing. Why go for it now when the format is just getting its feet wet. Honestly, three 1/3 CCD's can't compare to those used in CineAlta, so serious cinematographers wouldn't replace the Cine Alta with any HDV camcorder, besides the compression method, Panavision lenses, etc.
SONY will make that model in the not too far future because there's no way to replace the CINEALTA with an under $10,000 camera. So...it's just a matter of time when we can get that marvel you're talking about, and make great things with lower budgets. Let's pray for that.

Peter Moore · September 22nd, 2004, 07:26 AM

If JVC could do a 720/30p camera, then it should be easy to do a 720/24p camera for the same price. One problem though is that the HDV standard has no 24p, so storing it in a format that is compatible with HDV would be tricky.

Charlie McCarrick · October 3rd, 2004, 11:01 PM

Well, how well does 1080i convert to 24 fps anyway?

Barry Green · October 4th, 2004, 04:41 AM

1080i should convert pretty well to a 24fps rate. Film transfer houses have been working with 60i material for years and have gotten pretty good at it. Marcus Van Bavel at DVFilm has updated his DVFilm Maker software to accomodate 60i 1920x1080 footage for its conversion to 24fps, so as soon as someone has an FX1 they could try it out.

Peter Moore · October 5th, 2004, 04:30 PM

The problem is also that any progressive scan CCD must capture the entire frame in one shot. An interlaced CCD only captures half, so it wouldn't be trivial for the 1080/60i camera to record at 1080/24p.

It would, however, be trivial for the 720/30p camera to capture at 24p. It would just repeat:

1 1 2 3 4 5 5 6 7 8 9 9 10 11 12

etc.

It wouldn't be pretty to watch at 30p, but your NLE would drop every fifth frame then to get it to 24p.

Barry Green · October 5th, 2004, 06:15 PM

That wouldn't work. You need the frames to be captured evenly-spaced throughout the time frame, so capturing 30 frames and dropping six would look pretty awful. You need a 24hz capture rate to duplicate the 24P look.

Carlos E. Martinez · October 5th, 2004, 06:40 PM

<<<-- Originally posted by Barry Green : 1080i should convert pretty well to a 24fps rate. Film transfer houses have been working with 60i material for years and have gotten pretty good at it. Marcus Van Bavel at DVFilm has updated his DVFilm Maker software to accomodate 60i 1920x1080 footage for its conversion to 24fps, so as soon as someone has an FX1 they could try it out. -->>>

Not so fast. I am certainly interested in DVFilm comments on this matter, but the comments I got from Swiss Effects on film transfer from 1080i stuff recorded on JVC cameras is the following:

"We have tested footage shot with the JVD HD10 camera. It is by the way technically identical to the HD1, there are just
some differences in the hardware. The HD1 or HD10 is absolutely not suitable for transfer to film. There is one simple
reason: It shoots in 30p. A pulldown to 24p or 25p is virtually impossible without heavy motion artifacts. A pulldown from
60i to 50i or 24p is quite delicate already but from 30p to 24p is even more complex. Otherwise the image quality is good.
It was just designed for the HDTV market in countries with NTSC television.
We will be able to test HD footage from the Sony HDR FX-1 soon, but have not received anything yet."

So I am not too sure if it can be done for now, or at least done with no visible artifacts. Apparently the light at the end of the tunnel, for film projects, once again might be shooting with FX-1 in PAL.

Has anyone carried a DV based HDV project onto film?

Carlos

Barry Green · October 5th, 2004, 07:18 PM

The JVC doesn't shoot 1080i. It shoots 720P.

There's a universe of difference between 30P (which is what the JVC shoots) and 1080i (which is what the Sony shoots).

30P is completely unsuitable for film transfer.

60i and 50i have been being transferred to film for decades, and the transfer houses have gotten pretty good at it.

Peter Moore · October 6th, 2004, 09:27 AM

<<<-- Originally posted by Barry Green : That wouldn't work. You need the frames to be captured evenly-spaced throughout the time frame, so capturing 30 frames and dropping six would look pretty awful. You need a 24hz capture rate to duplicate the 24P look. -->>>

You're right - I just meant that's how it would be stored on the tape. But it would be trivial for the engineers to change the capture rate to 24 Hz. It might not be trivial to have two options on the same camera though, which is why I guess JVC didn't do it (that or marketing).

Barry Green · October 6th, 2004, 11:45 AM

Okay, right, I see what you mean now: you were talking about shooting at 24Hz but recording on tape at 30 fps to make it compliant with 720/30P. Yes that would work, had they made the CCD run at 24Hz.

I don't know how trivial it could have been, I mean, after all the DVX and XL2 can both run at 24 and 30 (and 60), and the new Sony HDV pro model is apparently going to be 50 and 60 switchable, so it might not be that big a deal...

September 19th, 2004, 05:15 PM	#1
Gabriele Turchi Regular Crew Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: New York City Posts: 56	1080I HDV at 24P? Hi guys I have a question The FX1 can't capture progressive video becouse don't have progressive scan ccd , and i know that the specific of HDV are: 720p and 1080i But you think it will be possible that the next camcorder(Canon , Sony ecc....)can capture 24p frame at 1080i resolution Like Cinealta 24pSf? (Cinealta capture 24p frame at 1080 lines but record it on the tape in 48i field) It will be 1080i and not 1080p right? And 1080i is on the specific of HDV Or we can only(for the moment)have 24//25/30p only for DV and for HDV but at 720 lines?and not at 1080 lines on HDV format? Thank you very much Best regards Gabriele

September 19th, 2004, 08:49 PM	#2
Barry Green Barry Wan Kenobi Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: North Carolina Posts: 3,863	JVC has announced plans to develop a 1080 camcorder that will capture real 24P and write it to tape as 60i, just like the DVX and XL2 do. However, the price tag is going to be around $20,000... the camera is designed to be an HDV competitor to something like the SDX900. Nobody has announced plans for 24P HDV in a consumer/prosumer-class camera.

September 19th, 2004, 09:33 PM	#3
Edwin Hernandez Regular Crew Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Panama City, Panama Posts: 162	I think it is technologically possible to have 24p HDV on cheaper cameras, it's just a matter of marketing timing. Why go for it now when the format is just getting its feet wet. Honestly, three 1/3 CCD's can't compare to those used in CineAlta, so serious cinematographers wouldn't replace the Cine Alta with any HDV camcorder, besides the compression method, Panavision lenses, etc. SONY will make that model in the not too far future because there's no way to replace the CINEALTA with an under $10,000 camera. So...it's just a matter of time when we can get that marvel you're talking about, and make great things with lower budgets. Let's pray for that.

September 22nd, 2004, 07:26 AM	#4
Peter Moore Trustee Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Arlington VA Posts: 1,034	If JVC could do a 720/30p camera, then it should be easy to do a 720/24p camera for the same price. One problem though is that the HDV standard has no 24p, so storing it in a format that is compatible with HDV would be tricky.

October 3rd, 2004, 11:01 PM	#5
Charlie McCarrick Regular Crew Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Bridgewater, USA Posts: 44	Well, how well does 1080i convert to 24 fps anyway?

October 4th, 2004, 04:41 AM	#6
Barry Green Barry Wan Kenobi Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: North Carolina Posts: 3,863	1080i should convert pretty well to a 24fps rate. Film transfer houses have been working with 60i material for years and have gotten pretty good at it. Marcus Van Bavel at DVFilm has updated his DVFilm Maker software to accomodate 60i 1920x1080 footage for its conversion to 24fps, so as soon as someone has an FX1 they could try it out.

October 5th, 2004, 04:30 PM	#7
Peter Moore Trustee Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Arlington VA Posts: 1,034	The problem is also that any progressive scan CCD must capture the entire frame in one shot. An interlaced CCD only captures half, so it wouldn't be trivial for the 1080/60i camera to record at 1080/24p. It would, however, be trivial for the 720/30p camera to capture at 24p. It would just repeat: 1 1 2 3 4 5 5 6 7 8 9 9 10 11 12 etc. It wouldn't be pretty to watch at 30p, but your NLE would drop every fifth frame then to get it to 24p.

October 5th, 2004, 06:15 PM	#8
Barry Green Barry Wan Kenobi Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: North Carolina Posts: 3,863	That wouldn't work. You need the frames to be captured evenly-spaced throughout the time frame, so capturing 30 frames and dropping six would look pretty awful. You need a 24hz capture rate to duplicate the 24P look.

October 5th, 2004, 06:40 PM	#9
Carlos E. Martinez Trustee Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Rio de Janeiro, Brasil Posts: 1,138	<<<-- Originally posted by Barry Green : 1080i should convert pretty well to a 24fps rate. Film transfer houses have been working with 60i material for years and have gotten pretty good at it. Marcus Van Bavel at DVFilm has updated his DVFilm Maker software to accomodate 60i 1920x1080 footage for its conversion to 24fps, so as soon as someone has an FX1 they could try it out. -->>> Not so fast. I am certainly interested in DVFilm comments on this matter, but the comments I got from Swiss Effects on film transfer from 1080i stuff recorded on JVC cameras is the following: "We have tested footage shot with the JVD HD10 camera. It is by the way technically identical to the HD1, there are just some differences in the hardware. The HD1 or HD10 is absolutely not suitable for transfer to film. There is one simple reason: It shoots in 30p. A pulldown to 24p or 25p is virtually impossible without heavy motion artifacts. A pulldown from 60i to 50i or 24p is quite delicate already but from 30p to 24p is even more complex. Otherwise the image quality is good. It was just designed for the HDTV market in countries with NTSC television. We will be able to test HD footage from the Sony HDR FX-1 soon, but have not received anything yet." So I am not too sure if it can be done for now, or at least done with no visible artifacts. Apparently the light at the end of the tunnel, for film projects, once again might be shooting with FX-1 in PAL. Has anyone carried a DV based HDV project onto film? Carlos

October 5th, 2004, 07:18 PM	#10
Barry Green Barry Wan Kenobi Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: North Carolina Posts: 3,863	The JVC doesn't shoot 1080i. It shoots 720P. There's a universe of difference between 30P (which is what the JVC shoots) and 1080i (which is what the Sony shoots). 30P is completely unsuitable for film transfer. 60i and 50i have been being transferred to film for decades, and the transfer houses have gotten pretty good at it.

October 6th, 2004, 09:27 AM	#11
Peter Moore Trustee Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Arlington VA Posts: 1,034	<<<-- Originally posted by Barry Green : That wouldn't work. You need the frames to be captured evenly-spaced throughout the time frame, so capturing 30 frames and dropping six would look pretty awful. You need a 24hz capture rate to duplicate the 24P look. -->>> You're right - I just meant that's how it would be stored on the tape. But it would be trivial for the engineers to change the capture rate to 24 Hz. It might not be trivial to have two options on the same camera though, which is why I guess JVC didn't do it (that or marketing).

October 6th, 2004, 11:45 AM	#12
Barry Green Barry Wan Kenobi Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: North Carolina Posts: 3,863	Okay, right, I see what you mean now: you were talking about shooting at 24Hz but recording on tape at 30 fps to make it compliant with 720/30P. Yes that would work, had they made the CCD run at 24Hz. I don't know how trivial it could have been, I mean, after all the DVX and XL2 can both run at 24 and 30 (and 60), and the new Sony HDV pro model is apparently going to be 50 and 60 switchable, so it might not be that big a deal...