I really do wish the EX1 fit my needs, as a doc shooter. The images you've created with it look fantastic (thanks by the way!). But the mantra "tape is cheap" is key to how I approach most shooting situations. I simply can't afford to skimp on shooting, because so much stuff in a doc happens when I'm least expecting it, and barely have the camera pointed in the right direction. The limitations of SxS (or P2) would encourage me to put the camera down to save media space, which is something I don't want to encourage.

That said, a lot of these issues with the EX1 would disappear if one were to sink US$5k or so into SxS cards, so it's partially a budget issue. When you take budget into account, the Z7 looks very attractive for doc work.

Maybe the EX1 would be good for a documentary on chipmunks, dragonflies, or other brief, speedy subjects. ;)

Ryan,

I'm glad to hear that the low-light capabilities are better than the FX-1. My previous set were VX2100's and and it took a while to get the hang of the FX-1's. We also own a pair of the Canon XH-A1's, but I haven't been that impressed with the camera so far. I'll probably end up selling them when I get the new cameras.
Hopefully one of the review sites will get their hands on one of these and put up some test results for us. Until then, we can all keep crossing our fingers.
Next time your in New Orleans, let me know and I'll bring you to one of our weddings. I promise its like nothing you have seen before :)

Thanks,

Chad Dyle
www.chaddyle.com
www.chaddyleproductions.com
www.babydyle.com

To, me any way, The z7u is just an upgraded z1, while the ex1 is a squished F350. If you can live with it's short comings, the image is worth it. As for recording times, does any body know if a firestore will work with the Ex1?

I feel you're showing your wishful thing there Ryan when you say, 'I tested the Z7 in low light and it was as good as the PD170. Far superior to the Z1 and even better than the EX-1 (or around the same).'

Even Sony don't go that far. They listed the PD150 as 1.5 lux (the PD170 as 1 lux), and the Z7 as 1.5 lux - but at 1/25th sec shutter speed as I said. Of course the Z7's amplifiers will be quieter than the PD170s which will help you in the gain levels.

The EX1 has chips (at 30.72 sq mm) that are just under twice the surface area of the Z7's chips (17.28 sq mm), so each pixel will easily take in far more light. They're both CMOS of course.

tom.

@ Gabriel - would a rolling record function make you feel better about solid state recording over yards and yards of tape of 'not very much happening'?

@ Mr Bloom - during your close proximity to Sony recently, do you happen to know if the Z7 & CF recorder have rolling record function? I know the EX-1 doesn't have this at present, but that it does have internal memory, so conceivably could do so in the future...

Well the EX1 has true 1920x1080 cmos sensors whereas the Z7 has half that with 960x540 sensors (offset, interpolated and rotated to different angles, but half sized none-the-less). Because of this, the Z7 should be a pretty good match with the 1440x1080i recorded resolution that is what I always use. For you progressive scan fans, the EX1 will have quite an advantage.

Anyway, the point is that 1/3" 960x540 sensors should actually pick up a hair more light than 1/2" 1920x1080 ones, so it would make sense that the Z7 would at least match the EX1 for low light.

For true cinematic progressive scan shooting, I really think the EX is the way to go. For 60i, the difference should be minimal.

Wait a minute
 

I haven't yet heard the res comming off the sensors for this unit but I do know that the v1u chips send off 960x1080. The hvx has been bashed many times for their chips being 960x540. Seems to be that sony wouldn't be that foolish to move to bigger chips but lesser resolution. If Sony maintains their track record, we'll see a second gen ex1 within a few years that incorporates many of the v7u improvements. I canhardly wait for that!

i have compared the ex1 and z7 side by side and the ex1 was a clear winner. didn't realise the z7 used pixel shifting type thing!

Enough said.

If anyone hasn't seen Phil's work, this guy knows his way around a good image and therefore the gear that makes the images. If he say's the EX1 is a clear winner (in image quality) then I'd take that as gospel.

And btw, I've never met or spoken with Phil, I've just got a videography man-crush on him.

It is supposed to be a little better than the type of pixel shifting used on HDV cameras like the Z1 and V1. As far as I know, the Ex1 is the only camera that uses true 1920x1080 sensors.

The process that the Z7 uses is explained in the brochure that was posted earlier in this forum.

I imagine that an EX1 at 60i and in SD mode would look almost exactly the same as a Z7 at 60i. At 24p or 30p the EX1 would look a lot sharper due to double the pixels vs interpolation. I also would guess that the 1280x720x60p mode on the EX1 would be very nice.

For me, my end product will continue to be SD DVDs for the majority of my customers, and Blu-ray compatible 1440x1080x60i AVCHD discs for the tiny sliver of my customers that want HD. I do mostly shoulder mount shooting (with frequent use of post stabilization) and just interviews and wide shots done on tripods. 60i is way more friendly to my style of shooting than 24p or 30p, so the extra resolution of the progressive modes wouldn't do that much for me.

I have no doubt that my next camera after the Z7 will be of EX1 lineage, but for me right here right now, the Z7 is a better fit.

The ex1 would always win with image quality. It is in a whole different league, 1/2 inch. Full raster blah blah...it's the low light that I wanted to comment on. It's amazing, although the Z7 is the best HDV camera I have seen in low light.

Am shooting a project soon which will all be at night. The ex1 was my number one camera of choice for that.

If I had 4k I would totally get a z7 to replace my z1. Love the photo of it with a zeiss digi prime on it!

Ethan, am very flattered. Call me.

Is that 4k in Euros or Pounds? 'Cause it's more like 6k in US dollars.

oh thats pounds! Our progressive society won't let us move to the Euro (my mum is French so am very continental!)

I'm pretty sure the Z7 has 960x1080 sensors, not 960x540. The specs are at http://www.sony.co.uk/biz/view/ShowP...=HDVCamcorders and they talk of "Approx. 1,037,000 pixels (effective), ....". (And 960x1080=1,036,800, so.....!!)

Hence no need to interpolate in the vertical direction (which makes the processing much easier than H & V pixel shift, especially in an interlace case) and H pixel shifting should take the res up to about 1.2-1.3x 960, so around the 1200 mark.

Sounds a good match for the recording format, and the 1 megapixel on 1/3" and 2 megapixel on 1/2" (EX) should indeed mean the physical size of the pixels is similar in each case. From that, if all else was equal, I'd expect them to have similar sensitivities, but the EX to be sharper.

You are absolutey right. My mistake. So the progressive modes on the Z7 should look very good as well. It makes sense to do it this way on a camera limited to 1440 format recording.

I think it's important to note that the xdcamhd specification utilizes the same 1440x1080 specification as hdv or hdcam for that matter. I think the draw of the full raster chips in the ex1 is due to the hd-sdi outputting uncompressed full res hd. Also, sony's clearvid technology doesn't shift pixels, but interpolate the areas between pixels (basically the corners of each pixel) to get increased resolution for each color, not just overall resolution, which is what pixel shifting effectively does. I don't think we can make any definitive arguments until somebody stacks these two cams side by side and shoots grayscale, color and resolution charts. Arguments notwithstanding, both cameras offer huge improvements to cameras in this price range.

WHOA! Hang on there fellas.

I'm only saying that looking through the LCD screen testing the cameras side by side, the Z7 IN LOW LIGHT is equal to the PD150-170 range, far better than the Z1 or V1 and about equal to the EX.

In terms of image quality, the EX is probably the best option you got! I never said anything in regards to that, i was only talking about Low Light with my cajun mate Chad.

Rolling record would be a great feature, as well as the 'instant-on' recording that CF cards should make possible on the Z7. I have had to tell whole roomfulls of people, many times, "hang on, just a sec... any second now...really..." while waiting for the FX-1 to spin up after I hit record. But neither feature is a substitute for being able to run tons of tape through the cam.

Ok, honestly, one of my only issues with the Z7 is that it doesn't look as pretty as the EX-1. There, I said it. The Z7 looks like a meatloaf on a stick. Granted, if it has low-light performance like the pd170, it will be a very handy meatloaf on a stick.

Have you guys seen this size comparison of EX-1, Z7, and Z1?

http://blog.so-net.ne.jp/hamapro/2008-02-08

Look how gigantic the EX-1 is! Waahaha!

**Slow kid question ahead**

So if the camera was rated at 1.5 lux at 1/25th sec shutter speed, what would that be at 1/60th? Sorry for the noobish question, but I'm kinda new to this.

Thanks,

Chad

I must say, I don't quite understand this camera's pricepoint.

If the Z7 and the Ex-1 cost basically the same for the camera, the 1/2" chip model is the choice.

The main draw seems to be the option to put a 35mm adapter directly on the body, but I don't think I want to give up chip real estate & bit rate just for that.

Although the CF card sounds nice.

I don't know why Sony did not put 1/2" chips in this camera and sell it for a little more than the EX-1, like the EX-1a.

Once you use larger chips, it is hard to justify using anything less.

They really seem to be quite different in price - just because of the SxS cards, hard drives or bluray for archive, etc etc.... Laptops and card readers for field offload.... After all is said and done, you're paying a good bit more for the EX.... I'm personally holding out for a 35mbps solid state/tape (or bluray) with interchangeable lenses, under 10k. That's my personal holy grail, until then, I can achieve a greater improvement to my video, personally, by investing in filters, lighting, and audio....

C

Such a great thread, guys. Not a silly question at all Carl, and manufacturer's published low-lux levels are invariably non-interchangeable between manufacturers and I'm even beginning to think between different models from the same manufacturer.

If you jump from 1/25th sec to 1/60th sec you'll need to more than double the amount of light in the room to get the same exposure on tape, but getting this figure into lux levels is not so easy.

So the offers from people like Phil and Laurence to test them side-by-side (as John Beale has done so extensively with the VX and FX) is really the only true comparison to make. That way we can find out if zero dB of gain up really is zero, or if there's a sneaky electronic boost being applied at all times just to keep up in this race.

tom.

Agreed - we need a shootout.

I would have to say the extra $2,000 or so is worth the chip size and bit rate jump to me.

After thinking about this a bit more, if Sony would have made the EX-1 and an interchangeable lens version (a la JVC 200), they could have impacted Panasonic and JVC with one camera release.

I don't think this camera (Z7) will sell very well at $6,500.

Hey Tim,
I agree with your stance on the difference between the EX1 and The Z7. Purchasing the EX1 is the better choice for me as I don't have 3 to 6 cameras to replace. I would only replace 1 as I do solo shooting with a back up cam at my events. I do see how the Z7 fits better for most event videographers. I can name quite a few that are actually purchasing these camcorders. I think it will still do well but it won't have a huge market to work with. There are quite a few event videographers that have gone the EX1 route but they replace 2-3 cameras. I'm set on upgrading to the EX1 but am awaiting what Red has up there sleeve with Scarlet. If Scarlet is a very good option I will hold off and get that one but if not the EX1 is my option. I agree with many people here that the price of the Z7 is quite steep as I was hoping for it to land in the $5 g's.

I agree that a weak point for the EX-1 is long record times.

If/when I get an EX-1, for the time being, it will not be for my event work. It will be for specialty shooting.

The Scarlet camera might be a real gem, but the time to get it to market and get one in your hands might be a while.

It seems like we are on the verge of the HD market really opening up and offering some better value for the money.

I believe the EX-1 will force Panasonic & JVC to up the image quality for less money as 1/3" chip HD cameras can no longer sell anywhere close to the $6,000 range and expect to woo anybody.

The tough part is waiting to purchase!

Regarding the z7u, I really think it's too soon to say that: "Sony is going to have a hard time selling these cameras." I for one think that the improvements to this camera are well worth the price. Canon's xl-h1 currently sells for $8000, just to provide reference, and not with alot of features offered in the sony unit, albeit with an added sdi jack comming out the side.

Also, it seems to me that the Ex-1 is more geared towards projects using the larger xdcam hd cameras that need a smallish camera to fill the b cam, c cam role.

To say that the sub-$10,000 camcorder market will have to move up to 1/2" chips doesn't make sense to me. You can see the size difference between the two cameras, the ex1 looks absolutely massive compared with the z7u. Sony is the currently the only manufacturer who is putting out 1/2" hd cameras.

Sony is claiming this as gen 3 for hdv cameras. I can't wait to see some bench tests put out so we can actually see improvements to color fidelity and resolution over previous models and the cams from the competition.

With regard to the size comparison between the EX and Z7: I haven't seen either camera yet, but I don't believe that the EX is really gigantic compared to the Z7. Check out the picture on a page from Adam Wilt's review of the EX. Left to right: HVX200, PMW-EX1, HVR-Z1. The Z7 should be about the same size as the Z1 (or FX1).

http://provideocoalition.com/index.p..._camcorder/P1/

When you replace the Z7 lens with a wide angle lens instead of adding one on to the front of the regular lens, the Z7 will definitely be the shortest and lightest option.

check the link out: yes, with the wide angle it seems the hv7 will be light and small indeed

You're right. I didn't check out the entire page. Light and small is good, as long as you can keep a steady handheld shot with it.

I've been going back and forth between the two cameras also. I wish that it cost less, but right now, the Z7 looks like the best fit for me.

Maybe my assertion about not being able to sell the Z7 is premature, but I am not sold on the 1/3" is the new 1/2" in HD.

Maybe I am crusty, but I moved up from 1/3" chips in the DV world, and I would like to stay at 1/2" or higher due to the higher quality image that results.

I believe the market will have to come down to what people are willing to pay (or what their clients will pay for) and in my view, once people start buying $100 Blu-Ray players, they are going to want HD at DV prices.

To me, $10,000 is a lot to pay for a 1/3" chip camera considering the DV equivalent yielded a 1/2" broadcast camera with a nice lens for less.

As a small business owner, I only have so much pricing power. I just do not see being able to charge double for HD services.

Tim,

This is fairly off topic, but I don't think you'll get your wish, at least not in the near future. Sony may indeed release a future gen of the s270 shoulder mount camera with half inch chips for under ten grand (or xdcam disc or solid state for that matter). While you might see a price drop in cameras, and while you may be right that the electronics are not that different and that 1/2" chips don't take that much more space than 1/3" chips, the glass in front of the camera is going to be more expensive and keep the price prohibitive for people like me and yourself. Thats what's so ground breaking about the EX1.

Keep in mind that ex1 only has a 14x zoom. If you look at broadcast glass in the 1/2" range, you're looking to spend at least $8k for the lens alone, not including camera, batteries, case, etc. In sd days, a cheap lens was fine to put in front of a 1/2" dv camera, but we're living in a hd world these days (I'm sure this is why Sony went with a 12x zoom instead of matching canon's 20x). I would be curious to put either camera (z7u or ex1) up next to your 1/2" dv camera and see the results. I'm sure either hd camera would blow the dv camera away. If you need an excuse to charge your clients more money, just claim that we're in a recession right now.

I just received this ;)
 

It says available in Feb '08, but I thought we would have seen a review unit out before it was released. Does that scare anyone else?

http://blog.so-net.ne.jp/hamapro/

We need a translator:

If you scroll down there is a comparison between the v1j and the z7j. Pretty good improvement wouldn't you say.

(I found this link on another thread of this forum)

I would be interested to see this as well, but I know the EX-1 would look better due to the much higher data rate and equal chip size.

I don't know about 1/3" cameras looking "better".

Sure they have resolution, and the color space can look good, but I can still often notice 1/3" lattitude wrapped up in a high resolution package.

Although I have to admit, most of my curmudgeonesque views are based on my experiences with DV cams and looking at a lot of posted footage around the internet.

I am sure these cameras have a wow factor when one uses them .

It is just tough to go from my "big" cameras to little ones again and see it as progress.

My hope is that Sony continues with the EX line and makes a fixed lens 20x zoom shoulder mount version for around $10,000 and an interchangeable lens version like the Z7.

I really like the concept of the Z7 camera, I just am looking to the future and not wanting a camera I will grow out of once some economies of scale kick in.

Thanks for your counter point!

I ran it through Google Translate (http://www.google.com/translate_t), but it really didn't help that much. I would love to see a list of all of the lenses that will work with the cameras. I doubt I will buy any extras for my line of work.

If the pdf file you uploaded holds true on the price, depending on how the reviews of the model come in I may actually pick one up now.

Do resellers honor the manufacturer's "suggested reseller price?"
How is that pricing structure set?

The "reseller's price" listed in that PDF is about $1000 less than the prices I've seen for pre-orders.