Can you please link to the reviews you are referring to? My rep told me they expect them to be in stock within two weeks and will email me my price as soon as the item is entered into the system. I'll let you know what I find out, but I don't think it will be as high as BH.

-Chad

Hey Chad,
When I mentioned based on reviews I meant forth coming reviews. I know of 3 people getting Z7's the end of the week and am awaiting what they say about it. When I do see those reviews I will provide you a link.



Brian I don't know how the reseller pricing works. But it may come down to that price after a couple of months. If it does my FX7 is going to be up for sale with the best offer takes it. I'm sick of it's lowlight performance.

Monday,
Selling an FX7 on the cheap? I don't really like it's low light either, but I'm too poor to get one of those fancy schmancy new ones. Just how cheap are we talking here? You can email me off list if you'd like.

Well, if that's true, then waiting a couple of months sounds like a good idea to me. Not only will that give some time for some reviews of the Z7 to come out and (hopefully!) the price to drop, but also to see what this Red "Scarlet" cam is all about. If Red delivers something in a comparable price range to the Z7, that may be an even more attractive option.

I know, I know, "If you're waiting you ain't creating." But for those of us for whom $5-$6K is a sizeable investment, it pays to make sure that investment will meet our needs for a long time to come. I've waited this long to upgrade from my PD-150, which has served me faithfully for 7 years now. I can wait a couple more months if I need to.

Chad go here

A Cinematographer name Darryl Smith posted the video on youtube and made a hd divx version available for all to view

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WE2UXvwtFts

also you can download the HD divx version here
http://www.stage6.com/user/24PCinema...CAM-TEST-SHOOT

The Divx version looks pretty good

The YouTube video has the wrong aspect ratio.
Ummm... yeah.

That's youtube for you. click the box inside of the box button it will scale it down

good to know

Don't bother with YouTube. View the www.stage6.com linked one. I just have. Very nice!!! I want one!

It's clear now that EX1 features true 1920x1080 HD sensors, whilst Z7 employs some sort of anamorphic cheating.

However there are two questions yet.

We know that Z7 utilizes ClearVid CMOS with rotated pixels. But I am not sure, whether EX1 employs the same ClearVid technology, or not.

Also, my concern is the camera noise levels. It seems like EX1 has been designed with cheaper DXP, which returns signal with very pure S/N level - 54 dB (typical).
The Z7 S/N ratio specs hasn't been announced yet.

Any comments?

Well even the most expensive CineAlta HD line employs this "anamorphic cheating", so it can't be all that bad! ;-)

Yes, my comment is that the Z7 isn't cheating in the slightest - it's a camcorder that follows the HDV specification to the letter.

True 1920x1080 HD is very compelling feature, because I shoot mainly in progressive mode, and that is where you can point at sight, whether is it a true HD or anamorphic cheating (or some kind of compromise, if this suits you better, Tom).

But what bothers me is the rather unacceptable noise level (54dB S/N is very pure performance indeed). So, what causes that noise: EXIMOR sensor itself or cheap signal processor (I heard that Sony guys used 12bit DXP in this model)? Unfortunately, Sony leave us guessing...

And they didn't reveal S/N performance on Z7 at all!

I doubt we can expect any comment from Sony, in particular taking in mind that these cameras were developed by two different teams: Z7 in Japan, and EX1 in US. So, if someone had a grip on both cameras, please comment.

Geese, I've seen some pretty amazing stuff come off of an ex1, regardless of signal to noise ratio. You may gaff at the low light levels, or remark on the pore noise floor of the chips, but when it all comes down to it, people who are skilled at making images are going to absolutely love either of these two cameras. And yes, despite any complaint there may be against the z7u or s270, these cameras are going to appeal to a lot users.

Two things that really haven't been discussed here that I think really matter:

The quality of the zeiss lens. Lets hope for something fantastic here.

And since Sony is calling these cams gen3 hdv, I'm hoping for a more robust mpg2 encoder.

If the lens is great, and the encoding is good, added with improved chip technology, then you put enough light into these cameras they are absolutely going to floor people with their image.

Don't forget the 'savings' of encoding complexity by shooting progressive rather than interlaced - the 'mouse teeth' in areas of motion are as bad as grain or noise to an MPEG-style encoder.

I've been on record bemoaning the Z1 lens as being soft (in comparison with the HVX and Canon cameras), and whilst I'm sure the EX-1's Fujinon is an absolute peach, I'd settle for a good all-round improvement on the T*.

54db s/n ratio seems to be the norm for hd cameras as far as I can tell. Any word on the new lens?

Z7 instead of the EX1 now
 

I've been seriously considering the EX1 for the last month or so now, but recently I'm beginning to think that the Z7 could actually be the better option for me, doing weddings and documentaries. It is great with the CF so that I can still do my SDEs but also have a backup on tape, and its also cheaper so I would get a better return on the investment quicker I imagine.

It seems there's a whole bunch of us going through this analysis paralysis. My wife's sick of it. My mates are sick of it. I'm getting pretty tired of it, but it's my money (and lots of it).

Sony, in their infinite wisdom, have made darn sure that there's no clear winner. If the EX-1 did FireWire downconvert to SD DV, or if the Z7 had 1/2" chips, there would be unacceptable cannibalization of sales of its sibling.

Try costing out an EX-1 (with 2x 16GB cards, 2x large batteries) and compare with a similar Z7 with Letus kit, which will out-do the DoF of the EX-1 yet will strip down to a neat run & gun.

Okay, if you were doing work like Phil Bloom (for broadcast), the EX-1 wins because it's NOT HDV, rather than because it IS XDCAM-HD. Compared to a Z1, it's a handheld nightmare, but if you're used to a DSR-450 (and up), it's a peach.

The EX-1 downconvert has been a big downer (groan). I've found a workflow for Progressive PAL, but not Interlaced PAL, and with reference to threads elsewhere, I'll gladly share what works for me, but lack the time and the motivation to nail an NTSC 29.97i method when this Z7 sits there smugly proffering both.

It seems to be as harsh as this: if you and your clients are still in a predominantly SD workflow with interlacing, you're better off with a Z7 for now.

Laurence,

How are your Transcend and Kingston CF cards working out ?

The both seem to work just fine. I haven't recorded anything substancial. Just tests, but those seem to be fine.

This kind of makes me sad. All of this discussion about the z7u vs the ex1 and the thread dries up when sony starts shipment.

No side by side tests? Anybody want to shoot some resolution charts or color charts? Any reports on low light capability?

The Z1 has an f/2.8 max aperture at full tele and the Z7 is a stop faster at f/2.

I was quite amused to see him refer to the Z1's lens as 'being .8 better'. It makes me want to take all the test results with a bucket of salt. Make of it what you will.

tom.

.8 better meaning at the telephoto end with the same or similar focal length the Z7 lens does not stop down therefore there is more light available to the sensor. What is wrong with that...? Where are your examples?

I would think they would come up, but I just attached them here. Nothing scientific, just practical test in the exact same lighting. with both cameras at default and in full manual.

I don't get it?

Not quite the "test" results I was looking for. Lets hope for a good review.

My primary concern is performance in extreme low light, so I quickly tested a Z1 and Z7 in the 2 comps and settings I commonly use in extreme low light, which is 15db 1/30 and full telephoto. The images were essentially the same with the Z7 winning at telephoto because of the lens, which is good for me, but I am very dissapointed that the Z7's chips are no more sensitive or cleaner for that matter than the 3+ yr old Z1.

Try the Z7 in 30p and 24p and see if you don't like the results better.

Already did and I am pleased with the progressive modes, especially compared to the bogus 24F modes of FX/Z1, but the light sensitivity is still no different than the Z1.

I would start converting my project workflow to 30P and maybe 24P just for the cleaner stills, but I work in Sony Vegas and I have heard grumblings on how poorly Vegas is handling slow motion interpolation of progressive footage.....

Bruce, thanks much for the pictures. If you feel like you have the time, it would be really sweet if you could shoot a grayscale chart, or color chip chart (or both), if you have these on hand. I'm not completely sure, but I think there are a few places that you can find these charts for a free download. I'm interested to see how these cameras perform under normal lighting conditions with proper illumination. Also, shooting these charts at full gain would tell us lots about these cameras as well.

Thanks for your posts and interests.

Greg Hartzell

You need to change the shutter rate too: 30 or 24 depending on the frame rate. I get a real jump in low light brightness when I do this.

Laurence - you're presumably slowing the shutter speed by more than a stop when you switch from 60i to 24p, so I'm not surprised you get a 'jump in low light brightness'. You should be able to film in less than half the light.

tom.

Tom, yes that is the case. I was responding to this post:

He should be seeing quite a marked difference. I know I am.

Laurence if you have some time can you post stills of the difference? Thanks

Monday

Thanks for the still, Bruce. I for one would be very interested to see the Z1 at 60i with high gain vs. Z7 at 24p with high gain. This is where the difference should shine through, so to speak?

The settings are in the file name. I was at 15db 1/30 shutter which I most often use in lowlight weddings. going to 24P 1/24 is no better than 60i 1/15 because the illumination is basically the same, but the footage is generally unusable because of excessive blur

Not much difference at all. It seems the gain noise is a little finer on the Z7, but for all practical purposes they are pretty much the same.

I will have much better feedback this weekend as I will be shooting a lot of real world footage in various lighting conditions.

Hmmm, interesting. So how does this square with the folks who are saying that the Z7 is comparable to the PD170 in low light?

BRUCE I have had no problems with slow motion in Vegas I shoot in 24p and 30p for most on my weddings. When shooting in 24p the shutter speed should be set to 48. 30p shutter 30.THe footage on my wedding demo is shot with 90% HVR-V1U'S 30P MODE and 10%HDR-FX1 60I rendered to 30p Timeline Sony Vegas Pro 8.
http://www.dvdaction.net/dvdaction_002.htm

Also when comparing the Z7U to the FX1 as for as gain the Z7 low gain is -6 and the high gain is +21 while the FX1 low gain starts @ 0 and goes to +18. So can you say that the 0 gain setting is the same on both cams when comparing them.

Brian, I don't own a Z7 - but own a Z1 and a new EX1.

2 questions

I noticed you shoot 24p for weddings. Any issues with that when it comes to panning (motion judder). I assume if you keep your pans slow you are ok.
Any issues with dance at 24p? I really like the look and thinking of going this route. Any advice?

Secondly, based on the feedback i'm seeing above - would you say the sensitivity of the Z7 is basically the same as the Z1 with the progressive capability of the V1

Paul

The clips on the demo footage is 30p you do have to use slower pans with 24p footage. I post some wedding clips in 24p next week.

I own the Z7, EX and HC1 sold my V1, z1, and Fx1. The Z7 does have better low light sensitivity than the FX1 . I will borrow an FX1 and try to do a comparision between the three cams this weekend.