Z7U or EX1...tough decision.
 

Some of my work is in the wedding industry....most of my work is for corporate/tourism and mostly displayed via flash on the web.
I have owned a Z1U since its' inception and have been very pleased. I also owned Panasonic 100s, Canon XL1 and JVC DV500, as well as a BetaCam..."anyone want to buy a BetaCam?" LOL .
Since its' announcement, I had planned seriously on getting the EX1...promise of inexpensive memory cards, 1/2" chips, etc. We even just got a new 8core Mac to handle it. But now, with the inherent lens issues, more costly cards and a better understanding that 25mbs on the EX1 might be the same compression quality as HDV, I'm having second thoughts.
Aside from being able to use all may accessories from the Z1U as well as the expensive Canon lens and controller from the old BetaCam, not to mention the host of other features found on the Z7, and record to tape as back-up, could the EX1 picture really be so much better in 35mbs to justify giving up these features found on the Z7U at 25mbs?
I'm down here in Key West so it makes actually getting hands on comparisons difficult...but I really appreciate any thoughts pro and con about both these unique cameras.
Best, Craig

I ordered my Z7 from Tapeworks last week but I'm still having pangs of "did I make the right choice?" For me, it came down to a couple of things:

1/ I love the look I get from my current HDV camera except in low light. Either camera should be very similar to my old VX2000 in low light.

2/ Most of my shooting is done with a wide angle lens attached and with the camera sitting on a Spiderbrace with a lanc controller on the left handgrip. The EX1 wouldn't be too friendly to this. I would eventually be able to buy a controller, but it's going to be a lot more money. The revolving control grip on the EX1 is something that ergonomically would be difficult for me. From all reports, the EX1 is akward hand-held, but with the way they did the controls, it's not going to work that well on something like a Spiderbrace either. The Z7 will just let me keep working the way I already do, and with a wideangle lens replacing rather than adding onto the stock lens, it will be nice and short and light as well.

3/ I just got a 16GB Transcend Compact Flash in the mail today. It was under $80! I have two slightly more expensive Kingston technology cards on order as well. Hopefully all three will work. That's 48GB for less than the price of one SxS 8GB card! If the Transcend works OK, the first thing I'm going to do is order their 32GB version for $179. At the prices of the SxS cards, I'd be sticking with the included 8GB cards on the EX.

4/ A replaceable lens is a really big deal to me. I've been looking at the Phil Bloom stuff and it is simply outstanding. None the less, I know I would never want to work with that much glass hanging off the front of my camera. In the Z7 brochures, they have pictures of the camera with a cinematic style lens replacing the stock lens. Now that (both on the tripod and on a Spiderbrace) is something I could live with. I've been working with add on wide angle lenses for long enough to know that I really don't like the add on approach. It's front heavy and akward.

5/ Backing up footage is important. Simultaneously going to memory card and tape will save me hours every day that I work. I'll save on capture time by going to the card and I'll save on backup time because I will already have a backup on tape. I have an absolute fear of losing important footage. The extra safety is a huge deal.

6/ The Z7 has an audio limiter. I'm a one person show when I shoot. With the Z7 it looks like I will be able to set a reasonable level, engage the limiter, and have pretty decent audio for the most part no matter what happens. With no limiter, I'd be forever fidgeting with the audio levels, setting levels below optimum for safety, and still having having clipping no matter how much I messed with it. A limiter is super important.

Laurence, your reasoning sounds good and has really tilted the scales for me. I will be holding off on purchasing a Z7 for a little wile. Mainly because I just bought two new V1s. But I think a Z7 is in my near future. I have many times in the past been an early adapter but I am going to try to wait and see how people like these cams before diving in. I am deeply invested in Sony products and will probably stay with them. But I do want the interchangeable lense. I can hardly wait to see some of your video shot with the new Z7.

Another thing that is sort of silly, but will affect me in a very practical way: The Z7 has two shoe mounts: one for a light and one for a wireless (at least that's how I see it). Talk about something that is really important, easy to add, and costs next to nothing!

Wow that is really interesting. I wish I had that on the V1s.

Same position...
 

I finally got my grubby paws on a Z7 at a UK trade show today. Like you, I've been salivating over the EX-1, and had an afternoon playing with one when I should have been working. I handed it back with exactly the same feeling I had with the JVC HD100 - heart wants (*needs*) it, head has a few issues.

So I'm beginning to cool off on the EX-1, especially if I take a cold hard look at what earns me money: SD and long record times. The Z7 answers many criticisms I had about the Z1 (even little things like underscan now available in SD mode). The 'paint' features seem strong, and the 1080p50 looked gorgeous - only the DoF gave it away.

Then there's the stuff I already have, the batteries, the Century wide and tele converters, the LED ring for my Chromaflex, the matte box, all can be shared.

And will my clients notice the difference between the Z7 and the EX-1? Probably not.

OTOH, I got to play with a humble Z1 with a Red Rock M2 with a little 35mm Nikkor (wide angle AND restricted DoF - wow!). Now, that was an image to get excited about. For the price of 3 16GB SxS cards, I could get a great system together.

The Fujinon lens and the half inch chip on the EX-1 are awesome, but the camera is an answer to the HVX200, not the Z1. I love the HVX200 dearly, but my Z1 earns money. So I think I'll be going Z7.

The Z7 does look very nice. If I had 4 grand I would get one. It's aimed at a very different market to the EX1. It certainly is going to be a great camera to buy. Especially with better glass that the standard lens on it.

I have been working on the Sony stand at the exhibition, hired to talk about the ex1, as I use it so much. But it has been interesting to see the new z1 and 270. I wouldn't want the 270 but the z1 for more looks like the perfect HDV camera. Not sure if I would ever touch the CF recording though...

Interesting - obviously the SxS cards are super-fast (and perfect for MacBook Pro owners), but in the Z7 it would seem to be the ideal way to shoot HDV: no dropouts, no agonizing wait for recording to start like on the Z1 (doing a Private Jones 'Don't Panic! Don't Panic!' impression as the REC indicator flashes away and your shot disappears in front of your eyes).

Is it the CF format you're unhappy about? Or memories of dubbing onto tape until the wee small hours, or the slower transfer speed?

I was thinking about buying one for my Z1 too...

the format it records in is no good for me! I am told it's not FCP compatible? please correct me if I am wrong.

But the main reason, being as an EX1 owner operator the reason I would buy the z7 too is for those situations when I know I can't get to a computer to dump off, so I need a great quality tape camera instead! For example I was to go into a third world country and sleep in a tent. I wouldn't want my ex1 as it would mean my macbook pro and a blu-ray burner. That would be ridiculous. So in those situations, and in many others tape is still a vital format and it's great that sony, canon and to a lesser degree JVC (come on guys! Where is 1080p??!) are still making cameras that use it. The Z7 looks to be a real winner!

I think it's a real shame Panasonic don't have an HDV tape camera. Would have been great to have an HDV DVX100 quality camera.

Oo-er. FCP 6.0.3, anyone? I'm sure Apple will have to support the M2T (whatever) files from CF, or Sony updates the XDCAM app to cope with CF. I can dream, can't I? OTOH, I have had great success recording direct from FireWire direct to hard disk via the MBP and apps such as Veescope, CaptureMagic, and a few others. Even QT Player for HDV...

I asked at a couple of booths if I could fit the Fujinon lenses designed for the JVC HD100 onto the Z7 and didn't exactly get outright denial. There's a very nice wide, albeit at £5k, that made the HD100 into a very interesting camera (unfortunately costing more than a standard F330).

A half inch HD?00 shooting 1080p to non-tape. Hmmm. With HD100 ergonomics? Get thee behind me - too tempting.

I use Sony Vegas and it handles m2t format clips just beautifully. It even smart-renders m2t. On a decent Intel Core2Duo it's not much different feeling than working with DV on a P4.

From later posts I gather it's the 25 v 35Mbs data rate you don't like, but CF itself is easily able to handle much higher rates than even 35Mbs. The big "WHY?" to me is why the EX doesn't use CF rather than SxS.

At the same show was a lovely box (still in prototype form) that used up to 4 CF cards (which you could AB roll, or ABCD roll!) to record HD-SDI to 4:2:2 50 Mbit (and 100 Mbit supposedly) MPEG2. So for capture, CF is up there with SxS.

However, in rough tests scantly documented (i.e. me mucking around with an EX-1 instead of doing what I should be doing on an on-site edit), I transfered an 8 Gig card in an eye blink, way beyond what used to happen with a 4 Gig card using firewire in my ex HVX200.

Maybe SxS has the edge in transferring to NLE, at or around 10x real time (IIRC it seemed faster - 20 mins of material in 2 mins or less).

With my sanity hat on, I need to consider that thing that Germans have a word for that's along the lines of 'eye-blink-time', in that if technology X takes two and a half twiches of a lambs tail, and technology Y takes three and a half twitches of a lambs tail, but technology Z takes 20-30 twitches, then agonizing over X & Y will probably waste more time than going for Z. Just go with X or Y depending on, phooo - toss a coin. But CF cards can be bought in airports and drug stores with petty cash, and SxS can't.

It's been interesting to play with the Z7 at the Video Forum in London. OK, it's a mildly face lifted Z1 if truth be told, and you've got to want to use different lenses to jump ship. Did anyone go PD150 to 170? Not many. Sony have a wide-angle zoom that starts at (equiv) 28 mm in the pipeline, but that's only wide, not dramatic.

The lens is a good stop faster (f/2) at full tele - something the Z1 cried out for with its tiny pixels. That - in combination with the more sensitive CMOS technology, is quite a pull. The differential focus capabilities were quite impressive, but switching to the EX1 show that with the latter you don't have to try for limited DoF anywhere near as hard.

Very impressive focus assist (not expanded focus, note), and as always horrible jerky 25p. But that's just me. Shame my beautiful Bolex Aspheron vignettes badly of the Z7's 12x zoom, whereas it's fine on the Z1.

tom.

Good point, though I wonder if your tests may not have been testing the rest of the hardware as much as the difference between the cards themselves? An SxS card plugged straight into a laptop should have access to a very high speed bus, in a way that a CF card plugged into a USB adaptor won't. (And same applies to P2.) Be interesting to try CF via an Expesscard adaptor, when hopefully the limiting factor will be card performance in each case, SxS will almost certainly be faster, but by how much now?

And nice points made about the "eye-blink time". If the 20 mins of material took 2 mins of material to transfer with SxS, but (say) 4-5 mins with CF, does that advantage merit the big price difference for most users? Compared to the "Z" of tape capture, they really are the X and Y.

Good feedback Tom - thanks for posting up your report.

That new lens will be 24mm at max. wideangle, not 28mm.

oops sorry Stu - my mistake. 4 mm down that end sure make a big difference.

The progressive isn't horrible jerky...it's just Sony were using monitors at the show that couldn't handle 25p!

Just look at the f900r, that had the same crappy looking progressive as the Z7, ex1 etc...it was just the monitors. I spend most of my time explaining to people who switched it into progressive why it looked so bad.

Sony told me that my JVC HD Fujinon glass would work on the Z7.

Badabing, badaboom. Thanks for officially confirming that. Wasn't sure if I found out by accident. That's five lenses from two manufacturers from the get go:

- 13x 3.5 (3.5-46) - a beaut. £4.4k but top notch
- 16x 5.5 (5.5-88) - standard HD100 lens, is a little challenged
- 17x 5.0 (5-85) - £1700 for the lens that SHOULD have been standard
- 18x 4.2 (4.2-76) - at this price level, maybe 2/3" and lesser glass is cheaper? Never seen it for rent either.
- 20x 5.0 (5-100) - No info other than what was posted in the XLH-1 forums

The 16x is documented in full here (chromatic aberration, lens breathes (no, gasps)), but other than the 13x and a couple of whiffs second hand of the 17x, these lenses are hard to find. As in 'invisible'.

Any 2/3" owner will need two lenses: a wangle and an ENG. Most committed Canon XLx owners go for either their wangle or the manual lens (or ditch the standard and operate with the wangle and manual). Maybe because they're less than the cost of the camera.

What I'm getting at is that anything other than budget glass is going to cost more than a 1/3" camera. In the 2/3" world, you're going to spend the same on glass as you are on camera, but in the 1/3" world this is anathema (or 'an anthema'? Please advise).

Barrack room banter has had it that the EX-1 fixed lens is modeled on a £7k lens (I'll accept $7k). Either way, it's a good lens. Sony says 'heck, we know who buys this camera, and how many will buy this camera, so we can give away the lens because you ain't gonna change it for a $10k lens, you're going to add a $750 converter.

So if the Z7's wangle is as good as the JVC's, but for $2k, the Z7's interchangeable lenses are good to go. JVC mount lenses are good, hard to find and most cost more than the Z7 which will not surprise the 2/3" crowd but they're the minority group in the Z7 field. If I had the budget for a Z7 and a wangle and perhaps the ENG, I'd probably be in the F330 camp. If I had the budget for a Z7 with the realistic vision that I ain't never going to change that lens, then perhaps I may get an EX-1 after all.

don't touch 2/3rd inch glass. The magnification factor makes them pretty much unusable for anything on the wide end. I have that problem with 2/3rd inch on my 1/2inch f350 so imagine how bad it will be on the 1/3rd inch.

To be able to put a really good wide or a really nice long lens with 2x on a z7 would be quite stunning.

People say why isnt the ex1 interchangeable. Sure, it would be great and I am sure in time they will but what you get is a quite stunning fixed lens, better than most hd glass out there with no breathing. My $10,000 20 x canon on my f350 has way more breathing and chromic aberration than the ex1 fixed lens and of course no back focus problems. Something which has stuffed me a few times of my f350.

I really really want a z7, to have an hdv cam that good that i could take to dodgy places where ex1 offload is not possible. I dont like my z1, dont like the only 50i, dont like the lens or the controls. The z7 solves everything and then some, you could go off with a great piece of glass on the front and get wonderful results.

i got to check out the Z7 the other day. Awesome camera. Great design. The manual zoom felt a little choppy but i'm thinking it was due to it being a demo model.

Cannot wait to purchase mine.

I'd say the perfect camera since the PD170.

So you're jumping from the PD170 to the Z1 Ryan? Good move! From a Z1 to the Z7? Not so sure.

I'm very sure...
 

- Better lens
- Better lens control
- Better focus aids
- Better image controls
- Better features (soft change of gain/wb/etc)
- Shoot HDV to CF and never suffer the agonizing wait for the Rec lamp
- Shoot SD to CF when you're changing tapes
- Shoot Progressive
- Shoot Rolling Record on a 7 second buffer (IIRC)

My Z1 paid for its self in 40 working days. My PDX-10 is getting a little senescent and its standard video gamma is SO-O 1998. The Z1 will make an acceptable wide/b-roll/backup to the Z7.

Agree with every word, Matt - it's just that I'm a believer in 'leap-frogging'. So a TRV900 man buys a VX2000, not a TRV950. A PD150 man buys a Z1, not a PD170. A Z1 man buys an EX1, not a Z7. Just a tom theory.

I'm not sure the EX1 is the next step forward from a Z7 - more a step forward and a step backwards at the same time. Each aimed at it's own market.

In regards to FCP compatibility, anyone who spoke to me at broadcast on the sony stand would've seen the new log & transfer plugin for the DR60 and CF recorders which basically work the same as the XDCAM transfer tool, looking to be released towards the end of this month. And despite what some people were saying I've been told by the product manager that it'll work with all the sony HDV DTEs when its released.

And that theory rings true. I am fighting the urge to get an EX1. Not an urge - its almost a compulsion. It's like fighting off the temptation of a high performance coupe whilst faced with a nice safe Volvo estate. I may have sounded decisive but now I'm all wobbly and torn between the two again...

Cue warm fuzzy glow - that's great news! No need to rely on FCP to update, then.

Matt, you know as I do that the quality remains long after the price is forgotten. I sweated many years ago when buying the VX2000, but never regretted the decision the following week, month, year, half decade. If I'd stepped sideways and gone for the TRV950 I'd have been happy for - oh, 20 minutes.

The Z7 is a Z1 with a lot of the silly production faults ironed out (at a big price increase I might add). The EX1 is a head and shoulders look over the ramparts, and might take you 80 days to pay for.

I always say it's much better to buy kit that you can grow into ~ rather than grow out of.

tom.

To me, the Z7 looks like kind of the ultimate evolution of the HDV format, whereas the EX1 looks like a first generation of a new (albeit better) format. I'm still having pangs of doubt, but I really feel that for me at least, the Z7 will be the better fit.

For me, the Z7 is the only realistic option, because I knock out 2,3,4, or even 5 tapes in a shoot (documentary). And I can't drag a laptop around everywhere to offload. I imagine that for many this is the case. Until the price point on SxS cards changes significantly, the EX will be an interesting novelty, but basically unusable.

Z7 for weddings my best bet cant wait for the release

You stated exactly how I feel Gabriel. Too bad this is the current situation.

Long live tape!
Uh, until something better comes along. To be better it would have to be at least as inexpensive to buy and hold at least the same amount of data.

None of the new acquisition formats seem to be able to do that. So, looks like tape is going to be with us for a wile.


(Disclaimer-
I could be wrong, have been wrong in the past, and may be wrong again.)

I only wish that the Z7, when recording to CF, had some kind of benefit over tape. It will be nice to make a "highlight" or "trailer" type video for the bride shortly after the wedding. That is something that we have always wanted to do, but dumping 60 gigs of tape wasn't the quick and easy option I was looking for.
I just booked my trip to the NAB in April, but I will probably buy my new cameras before then. Do we have any good guestimates on release dates for the Z7?

In this thread, somebody related to the Sony stand at the recent UK Broadcast show stated that Sony will have an update to the XDCAM software (and I speak here as a Mac/FCP user - sorry I can't confirm/deny the PC side of things) that enables you to browse the individual clips on a CF card, select the ones you want, then press a button to hoof the selects up to your hard drive for editing.

Having tried this software with SxS and the EX-1 (albeit mucking around on site with a demo unit whilst ingesting plain DV tapes from a deck), I can attest that it's a joy - an absolute joy.

Another benefit of CF: There's 32GB versions just beginning to hit the shelves. Just a whisker under 2.5 hours per card.

I still can't seem to nail the following snippet down, but have heard rumour of a 'rolling record' function to CF, so each time a shot starts, it includes the previous seven seconds. So having the tape rolling whilst waiting for something to happen or to catch a candid gesture or smile? Nahh. That's going to save miles of tape from the get-go.

Know that kind of awful rush you get changing tapes when something overruns? How the most crucial things can happen as soon as the cassette door pops open? You can record to CF whilst changing tape, or record to tape when recording to CF.

I've heard Feb 18th in the UK.

A little bit strong! As many people, including myself are using the EX1 for all sorts of commercial projects, including docos. But I agree there will always be jobs when I couldn't take a laptop to dump. If that was the case then it would be the Z7 for me.

I decided to attend NAB this year in order to get some "hands on" with whatever new cameras I decide to buy (wedding videography). The sad part is that I will have probably purchased the cameras before April rolls around.
The EX1 just seems like an awesome camera all around (other than expensive SxS cards). My only problem with it is storing the video. We shoot anywhere from 60-80 weddings a year and our average return time is 6 months. What are the best storage methods for using the EX1 right now? Blu Ray? Massive RAID 10? I can understand if a tape fails from time to time, but if a HD goes down, I've got a lot of phone calls to make.
As for the Z7, I need a reviewer to tell me that it isn't just an FX-1 with CF card capabilities. Do we have any info on low-light?

Thanks,

Chad

Sony's info on the Z7's low light capability puts it a 1.5 lux Chad, or the same as the PD150. Now that's really something for a 1"/3 chipped HDV camcorder, so I looked deeper into the spec sheet.

Ah, they've given themselves a one-stop advantage by doing the test at 1/25th sec rather than the default. If you're going to cheat, why not measure it at 1/3rd sec and be done with it?

tom.

from my limited hands on z7 I found it much better in low light than the z1. As good as pd150? Hard to say, close but not quite. The ex1 is the best I have come across for low light

G'day chad.

I spent a good 2 hours with a demo model the other day and i can assure you it is NOT the FX-1 with CF capabilities.

I've been doing weddings for 6 years now and i still use my PD170 cause it's the ultimate camera. But with High Def now becoming more and more popular i have little choice but to upgrade. I was never really happy with the Z1 (apart from the design and placement of the LCD Screen) so i've just been awaiting something better. The EX-1 is cool, but i would like a dual format rather than just card itself.

I tested the Z7 in low light and it was as good as the PD170. Far superior to the Z1 and even better than the EX-1 (or around the same).

Anyway. I cannot wait to get my hands on one. And the 'instant highlight' reel that you wish to make for your bride could well be a possibility with the CF cards.

P.S. On a side note, i was in N.O for 2 weeks late last year. AWESOME CITY. Cannot wait to go back. :-)
GO SAINTS!!!!!!