sound goes out of sync

Jay West · April 19th, 2011, 03:50 PM

Anthony:

My memory is that the manual for Liquid Pro 7.2 listed AC-3 as an audio format that could be imported along with Mpeg2.video. Also, I used Liquid to extract audio and video from DVDs on which I know that the audio was written as ac-3. Since your audio plays in sync from the timeline (where you have designated PCM as the format), I am inclined to discount (but not rule out) ac-3 audio being the culprit.

There are some things you can do to try to isolate where the problem is occurring. After I describe these steps, you might think it easier to just get Vegas 10 and be done with it. (I believe Edius 6 will run under XP if you have at least a dual core processor. As Ron suggested, you might want to check out demo versions to see how difficult it will be for you to switch from Liquid's idiosyncracies to those of the other programs).

Step 1 in troubleshooting, is with "fusing" which is what Liquid called linking or locking audio with video, With the audio being in sync when played from the timeline but being not in sync on the DVD, I am wondering if you fused the project before rendering to DVD? If not, try that and see if it fixes the problem.

Step 2 comes my starting to remember having had a problem with AC-3 audio going out of sync when coded for DVDs. This might have been under Liguid 7.1, and it was at least five years ago, so my memory is not very clear. What I recall is there was an issue with Liquid seeing or treating the audio as surround ac-3 rather than two-track stereo. The issue had something to do with the surround audio file sizes having to be divisible by some specific number such as 1536. If the AC-3 audio files did not exactly match that specification, the audio would get progressively further out of sync with the video when written to DVD. .I recall that I had to do something to be sure that I was getting standard stereo tracks. I think I might have exported all of the the audio tracks to Sound Forge, rendered it down to a two track stereo file which I saved as "wav" file that was then imported brought back into Liquid.

If you do not have an audio editor, try exporting all of your audio tracks together as a 48 kHz wave file. Bring that audio into your project and use it in place of all of your other audio tracks. If this stays in synch on your DVD, you have a work-around and can defer getting a new editing program.

Step 3: If that step does not fix the problem, try this which expands on what Dan suggested. Fuse your audio and video and export the whole timeline as an avi. Better yet, export each segment as an avi. (Maybe the problem is occurring in one particular segment.). Also export as DVD compliant mpeg2 files. Import the files into a new Liquid project. If the avi files still have the audio in synch but the mpeg files (on a different timeline) do not stay in synch, you've isolated the problem to Liquid's transcoding functions. If both are in synch, then your problem lies in Liquid's DVD authoring functions and it is time to get at least a new authoring program..

Pete Cofrancesco · April 19th, 2011, 06:54 PM

In my experience most editors aren't going like the mpeg format that the NX5 program records SD in. You'll need a Mpeg utility and codec to transcode to a more friendly editing format.

Dan Asseff · April 19th, 2011, 07:45 PM

I have to say that i edit with Liquid 7.2 and have had hardly no problems editing with the file from my NX5 SD files. It some time won't play multiple streams of the Mpeg files though. I do know it won't play the PCM audio format. But my point was instead of buying a new program, import the files on the time line and go to file/export/AVI. Then reimporting the AVI file and edit away. Liquid doesn't like Mpeg format as well as AVI but it does edit it.

Edit; I just saw Jay # 3

Dan

Jay West · April 19th, 2011, 10:17 PM

Anthony---
with two of us recommending testing an avi export/import, it would be good to know if this works.

Dan ---
I am not sure I understood your point about Liquid not playing the PCM audio format but it may shed some light on the glitch Anthony has run into. For the sake of clarity, let me preface this by saying that I know we are not talking about the LPCM option with the NX5 -- LPCM is only available for HD video and we are talking SD streams which only allow "dolby digital" (ac-3) audio.

My recollection is that Liquid internally converted everything to PCM for audio editing and playback. Your comment makes me wonder if Anthony's Liquid might not be confusing itself with the AC3 on the timeline when it comes time to transcode for DVD.. Exporting to avi would convert all the audio to an actual PCM-wav format. When re-imported, Liquid would no longer have to do any internal conversions and then, maybe, Liquid would be able to transcode Anthony's new timeline to DVD with the audio in sync.

Dan Asseff · April 20th, 2011, 07:17 AM

Jay you are right my bad. I was thinking LPCM.

Dan

Anthony Wheeler · April 21st, 2011, 10:15 AM

I exported a one hour program from my Liquid time line to an AVI file, the video quality of the picture was noticably less. The sound looked close to sync, may actually be, I didn't have enough close up footage to be sure. But the reduced picture quality is not going to be exceptable. I have discovered that the sync seems to go out progressivly more and more about two frames every twenty minutes. So I started adding two black frames every twenty minutes. Then i decided instead of adding black picture frames I should take out two audio frames every twenty minutes at a point of no audio or very low audio, it doesn't have to be at exactly twenty minutes. I am going to test this some more if it works it is a relatively easy fix and I keep the picture quality. Thanks to all the pros in this field for your help. I am not the computer whiz and some of this I am struggling with.

Jay West · April 21st, 2011, 12:02 PM

Anthony ---

Just to be sure I understood this correctly: there is no problem with sync on the original timeline but, when you export to avi, there is a loss of sync in the new avi file at the rate roughly 2 frames per 20 minutes?

That you would be getting a loss of synch on export to AVI pretty strongly suggests to me that that your installation of Liquid is having issues with either the MPEG/SD or the AC3 that the NX records. (You did not mention this, but I am assuming that you did a "fuse" in Liquid before running your test. If you did not do that, render everything and do a fuse before running the test again.)

The degradation in image quality on export to AVI is probably a settings issue. I haven't used Lquid for four years or so, and do not remember the export option. Maybe Dan can help you there?

The audio issue remains and there may not be a convenient work-around. Liquid came out 5 or 6 years ago, long before the NX5 was released. There might be some slight variation in Sony's implementation of the MPEG or AC/3 recording codecs that is causing the glitch in Liquid. I suspect that it is time to consider a new NLE. Both Vegas 10 and Edius 6 seem likely to run on your existing XP machine, and both have fully functional trial versions that you can test out.

If you want to do some further testing under Liquid, I suggest the following.

First, the problem might be having ac-3 audio on the timeline when you create a DVD within Liquid. Here's how I would confirm or rule that out. First, export your mixed audio as a *.wav file rather than exporting the whole timeline to avi. Import the new wav file and put it on an audio track below your existing audio. Expand the timeline resolution/view to maximum zoom so you are basically able to see the frame markers. Go to the end of the timeline and see if your newly re-imported audio is the same length as the original timeline audio and video.

If the exported/imported pcm-wav audio is longer or shorter than than the original video and audio, you have an incompatibility and it is time to get a new NLE (which should allow you to shoot HD with your NX).

If the exported/imported pcm-wav audio still matches the video in length, make a DVD using only the new audio tracks with the video. (You might want to make a new sequence, copy your edited video to it without the audio, and drop in the newly imported audio as the only audio.) If the DVD audio is in sync, you have found a work around. If it is not in sync, you have confirmed that it is time to get a new NLE.

Dan Asseff · April 21st, 2011, 06:31 PM

Anthony one quick question. When you add your footage to the time line, is the audio separate from video?
if your audio is separate from you video, I would try to bring them as one. On the left of the time line there is a arrow, right click and add as grouped. I out put to AVI all the time with no bad effect. Hope this helps. When export what is your settings?

Dan

Anthony Wheeler · April 21st, 2011, 09:09 PM

I am just now making new DVD. I found out how to set the DVD audio out to- 48kHz. stereo 16 Bit Dolby Digital 224kBits/second. I forgot how to do this I have had the same settings for a couple of years now! I'm going to bed and let this render. Time now 11PM Eastern Standard Daylight time.

April 19th, 2011, 03:50 PM	#16
Jay West Major Player Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Red Lodge, Montana Posts: 889	Re: sound goes out of sync Anthony: My memory is that the manual for Liquid Pro 7.2 listed AC-3 as an audio format that could be imported along with Mpeg2.video. Also, I used Liquid to extract audio and video from DVDs on which I know that the audio was written as ac-3. Since your audio plays in sync from the timeline (where you have designated PCM as the format), I am inclined to discount (but not rule out) ac-3 audio being the culprit. There are some things you can do to try to isolate where the problem is occurring. After I describe these steps, you might think it easier to just get Vegas 10 and be done with it. (I believe Edius 6 will run under XP if you have at least a dual core processor. As Ron suggested, you might want to check out demo versions to see how difficult it will be for you to switch from Liquid's idiosyncracies to those of the other programs). Step 1 in troubleshooting, is with "fusing" which is what Liquid called linking or locking audio with video, With the audio being in sync when played from the timeline but being not in sync on the DVD, I am wondering if you fused the project before rendering to DVD? If not, try that and see if it fixes the problem. Step 2 comes my starting to remember having had a problem with AC-3 audio going out of sync when coded for DVDs. This might have been under Liguid 7.1, and it was at least five years ago, so my memory is not very clear. What I recall is there was an issue with Liquid seeing or treating the audio as surround ac-3 rather than two-track stereo. The issue had something to do with the surround audio file sizes having to be divisible by some specific number such as 1536. If the AC-3 audio files did not exactly match that specification, the audio would get progressively further out of sync with the video when written to DVD. .I recall that I had to do something to be sure that I was getting standard stereo tracks. I think I might have exported all of the the audio tracks to Sound Forge, rendered it down to a two track stereo file which I saved as "wav" file that was then imported brought back into Liquid. If you do not have an audio editor, try exporting all of your audio tracks together as a 48 kHz wave file. Bring that audio into your project and use it in place of all of your other audio tracks. If this stays in synch on your DVD, you have a work-around and can defer getting a new editing program. Step 3: If that step does not fix the problem, try this which expands on what Dan suggested. Fuse your audio and video and export the whole timeline as an avi. Better yet, export each segment as an avi. (Maybe the problem is occurring in one particular segment.). Also export as DVD compliant mpeg2 files. Import the files into a new Liquid project. If the avi files still have the audio in synch but the mpeg files (on a different timeline) do not stay in synch, you've isolated the problem to Liquid's transcoding functions. If both are in synch, then your problem lies in Liquid's DVD authoring functions and it is time to get at least a new authoring program..

April 19th, 2011, 06:54 PM	#17
Pete Cofrancesco Inner Circle Join Date: May 2004 Location: USA Posts: 2,997	Re: sound goes out of sync In my experience most editors aren't going like the mpeg format that the NX5 program records SD in. You'll need a Mpeg utility and codec to transcode to a more friendly editing format.

April 19th, 2011, 07:45 PM	#18
Dan Asseff Major Player Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Port Orange Fl Posts: 317	Re: sound goes out of sync I have to say that i edit with Liquid 7.2 and have had hardly no problems editing with the file from my NX5 SD files. It some time won't play multiple streams of the Mpeg files though. I do know it won't play the PCM audio format. But my point was instead of buying a new program, import the files on the time line and go to file/export/AVI. Then reimporting the AVI file and edit away. Liquid doesn't like Mpeg format as well as AVI but it does edit it. Edit; I just saw Jay # 3 Dan

April 19th, 2011, 10:17 PM	#19
Jay West Major Player Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Red Lodge, Montana Posts: 889	Re: sound goes out of sync Anthony--- with two of us recommending testing an avi export/import, it would be good to know if this works. Dan --- I am not sure I understood your point about Liquid not playing the PCM audio format but it may shed some light on the glitch Anthony has run into. For the sake of clarity, let me preface this by saying that I know we are not talking about the LPCM option with the NX5 -- LPCM is only available for HD video and we are talking SD streams which only allow "dolby digital" (ac-3) audio. My recollection is that Liquid internally converted everything to PCM for audio editing and playback. Your comment makes me wonder if Anthony's Liquid might not be confusing itself with the AC3 on the timeline when it comes time to transcode for DVD.. Exporting to avi would convert all the audio to an actual PCM-wav format. When re-imported, Liquid would no longer have to do any internal conversions and then, maybe, Liquid would be able to transcode Anthony's new timeline to DVD with the audio in sync.

April 20th, 2011, 07:17 AM	#20
Dan Asseff Major Player Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Port Orange Fl Posts: 317	Re: sound goes out of sync Jay you are right my bad. I was thinking LPCM. Dan

April 21st, 2011, 10:15 AM	#21
Anthony Wheeler New Boot Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: Flatwoods Kentucky Posts: 9	Re: sound goes out of sync I exported a one hour program from my Liquid time line to an AVI file, the video quality of the picture was noticably less. The sound looked close to sync, may actually be, I didn't have enough close up footage to be sure. But the reduced picture quality is not going to be exceptable. I have discovered that the sync seems to go out progressivly more and more about two frames every twenty minutes. So I started adding two black frames every twenty minutes. Then i decided instead of adding black picture frames I should take out two audio frames every twenty minutes at a point of no audio or very low audio, it doesn't have to be at exactly twenty minutes. I am going to test this some more if it works it is a relatively easy fix and I keep the picture quality. Thanks to all the pros in this field for your help. I am not the computer whiz and some of this I am struggling with.

April 21st, 2011, 12:02 PM	#22
Jay West Major Player Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Red Lodge, Montana Posts: 889	Re: sound goes out of sync Anthony --- Just to be sure I understood this correctly: there is no problem with sync on the original timeline but, when you export to avi, there is a loss of sync in the new avi file at the rate roughly 2 frames per 20 minutes? That you would be getting a loss of synch on export to AVI pretty strongly suggests to me that that your installation of Liquid is having issues with either the MPEG/SD or the AC3 that the NX records. (You did not mention this, but I am assuming that you did a "fuse" in Liquid before running your test. If you did not do that, render everything and do a fuse before running the test again.) The degradation in image quality on export to AVI is probably a settings issue. I haven't used Lquid for four years or so, and do not remember the export option. Maybe Dan can help you there? The audio issue remains and there may not be a convenient work-around. Liquid came out 5 or 6 years ago, long before the NX5 was released. There might be some slight variation in Sony's implementation of the MPEG or AC/3 recording codecs that is causing the glitch in Liquid. I suspect that it is time to consider a new NLE. Both Vegas 10 and Edius 6 seem likely to run on your existing XP machine, and both have fully functional trial versions that you can test out. If you want to do some further testing under Liquid, I suggest the following. First, the problem might be having ac-3 audio on the timeline when you create a DVD within Liquid. Here's how I would confirm or rule that out. First, export your mixed audio as a *.wav file rather than exporting the whole timeline to avi. Import the new wav file and put it on an audio track below your existing audio. Expand the timeline resolution/view to maximum zoom so you are basically able to see the frame markers. Go to the end of the timeline and see if your newly re-imported audio is the same length as the original timeline audio and video. If the exported/imported pcm-wav audio is longer or shorter than than the original video and audio, you have an incompatibility and it is time to get a new NLE (which should allow you to shoot HD with your NX). If the exported/imported pcm-wav audio still matches the video in length, make a DVD using only the new audio tracks with the video. (You might want to make a new sequence, copy your edited video to it without the audio, and drop in the newly imported audio as the only audio.) If the DVD audio is in sync, you have found a work around. If it is not in sync, you have confirmed that it is time to get a new NLE.

April 21st, 2011, 06:31 PM	#23
Dan Asseff Major Player Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Port Orange Fl Posts: 317	Re: sound goes out of sync Anthony one quick question. When you add your footage to the time line, is the audio separate from video? if your audio is separate from you video, I would try to bring them as one. On the left of the time line there is a arrow, right click and add as grouped. I out put to AVI all the time with no bad effect. Hope this helps. When export what is your settings? Dan

April 21st, 2011, 09:09 PM	#24
Anthony Wheeler New Boot Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: Flatwoods Kentucky Posts: 9	Re: sound goes out of sync I am just now making new DVD. I found out how to set the DVD audio out to- 48kHz. stereo 16 Bit Dolby Digital 224kBits/second. I forgot how to do this I have had the same settings for a couple of years now! I'm going to bed and let this render. Time now 11PM Eastern Standard Daylight time.