To keep this semi on topic, if this NXcam really is a leap beyond the EX3 in low light. I will be making another video of that Drive In. I wanna capture the feel of being there as good as I can, without making the owner mad of course. :)

Also, I can't imagine how this thing will be held!! It's not designed for handheld that's for sure. Even with the grip if it will be awkward to say the least! Just make a damn camera Sony.. :)

Dear Friends,

I recommend that we do not judge this camera by this early mockup.

It will certainly change before it is ready for sale.

Here are some pictures of the prototype camera with a Zeiss zoom beside it.

Sony F3 and NXCAM 35 at InterBEE Japan Film and Digital Times: News

I like the idea of a modular camera. Perhaps the hand grip is reversible so that it sticks forwards or backwards (there's no rocker to stop you from doing this). Add a shoulder mount and viewfinder and you have a shoulder mount camera with the hand grip out beside the lens. Strip it down and you have a great camera for jibs or stedicams. With a short lens, twist the handgrip backwards and just use the LCD and you have a handycam. If as rumoured and certainly not denied by Sony this is using the same sensor as the F3 it should be rather good.

Al in Philip Bloom's video the Sony rep said straight up, it was the same sensor. Are you saying he could be wrong?

A few days ago I asked the US Marketing Manager for Production at Sony Electronics if the NXCAM would have the same sensor as the F3, and he said that at this time he couldn't confirm that it did.

Well as long as it follows the same design, the large format low resolution chip. Although if they copied that much why not just use the same chip?

If it uses a large pixel count, small photosite chip, this means nothing to me and will just be another camera.

EDIT, I watched the Bloom video again. Not only does the Rep say it's the same as the F3 he answers follow up questions. Bloom was asking about 24p in Europe and the Rep said, well that is what the F3 is for. Implying directly it was function and not so much the sensor that separated the two.

At least that how I read it.

Will this camera have in-camera IS?
 

Hello,

I know we are still in the very early stages of the NXCAM, but do you think it will have in-camera IS to make the best use of the Alpha lenses?

Thanks.

In camera IS with 35mm sensor. that would be interesting and one of the first.

Someone over at another forum said he was at an event and the Sony Rep said it was a "similar" S35 sensor to the F3.. The word similar in spooky quotes. Hopefully similar means "exactly the same".

I've seen the Bloom interview. The rep said same sensor but that could have meant same size sensor, not exactly the same sensor. Of course Philip is not a journalist to make the clarification. As I had stated earlier, the price difference indicates similar but not exactly the same sensor. Of course by the time this baby is delivered, a lot of things can change even the sensor.

About time for more news...

Peek, no post | crews.tv

Very good news! The viewfinder is particularly interesting, as it appears the camera can now be semi-shoulder mounted, like the EX3. Plus, if it's identical to the EX3 viewfinder, that makes it one of the best on any camera. We can't be sure yet, but of all the large sensor cams, this cam may be the best for hand-held shooting.

This is why I didn't pre-order an AF100. I'll wait to see what's available come Summer 2011.

Erik:

Thank you for sharing these infos.

Glen:

I am also in the 'searching for a new, near perfect camera' project, but for me this cam is a big dissapointment.

Coupe of random ideas:

- mid 2011 can mean May, or even October. Lets add couple of months of delays, and we are already in December. Then Sony will release couple of low res and overcompressed videos on their website, so it is better to get info, user experience and sample videos from real users. Lets add another 3-6 months. After all we are in 2012 Q2 then, and I am sure that by that time another 2-3 new camera will be introduced.

(I am already said that I really don't like the marketing of the camera makers ?)

- still there is no information about the auto modes (af, iso, etc), if there is any zoom rocker, what kind of Image Stabilisation is inside the camera. As I also want to use if as a handheld camcorder, without this informations it is hard to decide

- the Sony E mount is a joke. The only usefull-like lems is the SEL 18200, which gaves 'below average' quality picture, very strange bokeh (as the test videos shows).

- the E mount lenses made for the NEX serie has only zoom and focus wheel. Where are the iris, etc wheels ? We need a proper zoom lens.

- I guess it will be AVCHD camcorder. For serious jobs, still the XDCAM 35/50 Mbit/s video is the standard. I know that AF100 has avchd, and some people like it, but based on the test videos I can tell I am not impressed

- It is overpriced, like the latest canon xf100 (and of course xf300 is overprices, too)

- The price difference between this cam and the F3 is a very serious question. If the sensor will be the same, and all the IQ will be the same (assume this cam will be pro modell), and PL mount adapters will be ready soon hopefully, then what will Sony will leave out from F3 techique / IQ, to sell it about half price (as this cam will be 6K USD) ?

Is is so hard to ask any camera maker to impress us with a medium priced, quality camera ?

I'm not familiar with E-mount so I can't really tell ya. Seems worse case you get an adapter and go full manual with a 3rd party lens right? Not saying that is ideal but I think a lot of pros try to use full manual most of the time anyway.

I do wonder what Sony is going to do to keep this camera from looking as good as the F3. Just seems un-Sony to make two cameras that can produce the same image but one is half the price. I know all those connections on the back of the F3 make a lot of things possible but still.

I don't like AVCHD only because of the horsepower it takes to even watch it. I know a lot of people transcode to something more friendly to a NLE but Xdcam EX has made me so lazy. I can just drop the mxf files in Vegas and go at it. I will not be able to do that with 24mbps AVC, as stout as my computer is that would slow things to a crawl. So I either live with it or hope the NX has HS SDI and buy a nano.

I love the EX3, and it's deep DOF. I am personally completely annoyed with the out of focus look that has overcome every video on Vimeo these days. I'm really only looking at the NX, or F3 for that matter, for the signal to noise ratio and the awesome low light.

Is there any confirmation if this camera will have on SDI out and Genlock? If it does it may be great when coupled with a NF or similar recorder.

How much better in low light?
 

Hello,

I use a Z7, and at night in the city I can, with confidence, use 6 or 9db, and still like the images. Now I realize that the 1/3 chips are on the low end of market. Looking to do a feature shoot with a lot of night shoots on city streets, run and gun.

Assuming the 35mm NXCAM is being equipped with Sony alpha 1.4-2.0 lenses, how does that measure up?

I understand it's basically theory at this point, with this camera.

Frankly, if that set up doesn't absolutely blow my Z7 out of the water, I don't know if it would be worth losing the ENG style capability for run and gun.

Any help would be great.

William

Since we're just talking theory at this point and, ultimately, implementation will tell the real story, larger sensors tend to be better in low light. Couple that with a fast lens and it could well blow the Z7 out of the water.

For example, even with all the problems HDSLRs have with video, one thing they do shine with, is low light performance.

the E mount is just a mount. What it does having going for it is a very short flange back distance. This makes it very easy to adapt to other mounts and may prove to be significant when it comes to zoom lenses as it's easier to produce a zoom with a short flange back than a long one.

If your expecting a 10x or more, servo zoom lens for a s35mm sensor then be prepared to have very deep pockets. The bigger the sensor, the harder it is to make a decent zoom, even harder to make a fast one.

The sensors might well be the same, but image quality is not just down to the sensor. It's also dependant on the way the signal is processed. It is conceivable that the 35mm NX could have a better image than the F3, but the reverse is more likely.

Currently 10 x zooms S35 zooms are expensive compared to the cost of this camera and they definitely don't have any auto functions. They are also big.

In the future, there may be lower cost 10 x zooms, but past experience shows it takes time for these to come out. You can't expect complete low cost systems to come straight away.

I don't see why people are going crazy for 35mm sensor run and cameras, there are so many practical problems. Keep that for 2/3" and smaller, those cameras are great for that type of operation.

Probably they want to discriminate from the video herd or they have been addicted to the VDSLR look. IMO opinion 2/3 inch(or S16), since it gives you 2.2X the DOF of S35, is a nice comprise between cost, weight and and DOFability. But I guess I am a minority.

Interesting to see if that changes when the Scarlet 2/3" cameras come out in a few months. So far, the images posted look less video than the DSLRs.

"In a few months?" We'll see, but don't hold your breath. 2012 has been tossed around as the release date. But at least it'll give you time to save up for one. From what I've seen, it looks like a really nice camera.

Yes, I was a bit wary of giving a time scale, but spring/early summer for the fixed lens Scarlet seems to be possible. Of course, how quickly you can actaully get one after ordering is another matter.

An alternative if you want an ENG lens on a large sensor camera: http://blog.abelcine.com/2010/12/28/...ensor-cameras/

I see several other ppl on different forums who are thinking about using this cam as a 'run and gun' camera.

The reasons are:

- the s35 sensor general video image quality and especially the low light video quality is mindblowing. Definately much better than any 2/3 camera

- price. If sony can give a good zoom lens with 'auto everything' option for a very good price, then it can be the ultimate camera (also beating AF100 which has very noisy image and has no room rocker)

The scarlet is mainly made for controlled situations (general movies), as there is no IS (for example F3 has IS), and still not sure about the auto functions. I don't know if the final modell will have a dedicated zoom rocker Definately NOT a good run and gun camera.

Also I don't believe that for 4-5-6K usd the Scarlet will be useable. You have to seriously pimp the camera with 10-15k usd accesories, so the idea of cheap camera will be gone.

As I know there is no new 2/3 camera in thr sub 6-7k usd price range. The closest one is the sony ex1 with 1/2 inch sensor, but as Alister Champan's test showed, the F3 18 db gain is around 0 db gain with Ex1.

Let me say I am sick of the opinion of several pro, who are saying: the s35 is a pro sensor, any camera with such sensor can be used for 'big' movies only and any other 'pro-like' situations. I think the camera user should decide which tool if he wants, and not the so called pros. Like everyone, including the run and gun camera operators want very good video image quality. It can't be resticted as 'the pros don't allow to use it'.

In my opinion there is no low or high reputation usage of camcorders. I think every user, including the feature film makers, nature film makers, wedding video makers, run and gun video makers, etc also can get the chance to buy the ultimate tool to make the best possible image quality.

There are lots of discussion about the shallow DOF is not good for 'run and gun' style of videos. But who sad that the run and guy cameraman wants to use shallow dof ? On the lens there are different F numbers, like 2.8, 3.5, 4, etc. Noone is pushing anyone to use F/4, it is possible the select f11 or f22 on the lens. Voila, shallow DOF problem is solved, so anything around f/11 can be used for big DOF.

If i look at the 6k usd price of the nxcam, i really hope that sony can give use some very cheap, also very good quality lens. But if we need to buy (i don't care about renting) 10-20k arri lenses, why the cheap camera price ? Anyone who can pay 10-20k for a lens or 100k for a complete arri lens package has so much money in his pocket that he can buy F3 or any other pro Sony modell.

There is no IS (assuming you mean image stabilisation) on the F3 at the moment. That will be a lens feature. Possibly someone will come up with a way to adapt a stabilised DSLR lens or produce an uber expensive stabilised PL lens.

As I said above, a fast s35 zoom of 10x or more is going to probably cost more than the camera and I question how many people will be prepared to pay that kind of money. Certainly those with deep pockets or big budgets, but that often excludes the "run n gun" crowd.

DSLR zooms don't track focus so very difficult to use run n gun.

If you going to shoot at f11 you may as well use a 2/3" or 1/2" camera. Yes the F3 can produce very nice images, but so can many, many other cameras. The PMW-350 produces a very nice, clean image and without the lens restrictions.

The problem is this. You stick a fully manual, shallow DoF camera in the hands of someone that is already right at the edge of what they are able to get away with and it will be too much to deal with. Ultra critical manual focus, manual exposure, no zoom. They will soon get fed up with it because while from time to time they might get some amazing results they will end up throwing away footage that normally would have been straight forward for them to shoot.

I have a pair of F3's on order, but there is no way I'm selling my EX1R. It's all about having the right tool for the job. It's like a farmer buying an Ferrari to plough the fields because it has more horsepower than his tractor.

I think the reason that so many "Pros" are opposed to the idea of the super35 sensors being used in a run and gun setting is because in certain cases is impractical.

The fact is yes, the sensor is huge and should be great in low light. But then comes the lens, which if you need a zoom lens is going to cut a couple of stops. Then for deeper DOF, stop down further. This in itself will negate any benefit in low light performance, and may even make it slightly worse.

Also, if HD and DSLR video have shown me nothing else, it is that many people have a ton of trouble not only achieving focus, but maintaining it especially on moving targets. Even on big tv shows, I can't tell you how many times i've spotted a focus point being on someone's ear rather than the eye. It takes a ton of precision and practice to be a good focus puller, and for the moment no camera can match it even closely.

And finally, I'd rather that Sony not include a lens on the nxcam version if it's just going to be a cheap pos. A huge sensor needs good glass. People are already testing different lenses on the AF-100 and the differences are breathtakingly bad on certain lenses.

Just my $0.02

One thing about Scarlet 2/3 vs. existing s35 and ff35 sensors: Scarlet's rolling shutter is likely to be negligible. That will make it viable in handheld or shoulder mount (with accessories) configuration.

Personally, I find stabilization to be as big a challenge as focus when shooting with a large CMOS sensor (5D2).

I don't think anyone is stopping people from using which ever sensor size they want. Although, you do find there's the right tool for the job you're doing and it's not always the largest sensor.

Regarding prices, I wouldn't say any of these camera base prices are what you'd use for a working kit. They usually need accessories. Also, don't expect cheap, very good quality glass, more pro stills lenses type prices.

Abel cine have an adapter that allows HD lenses to be used on large sensor cameras.
HDx2: 2/3″ Lenses on Large Sensor Cameras | CineTechnica
However, these lenses aren't cheap, but if you already own a 2/3" HD zoom it could be useful..

I admit I've been rethinking this whole thing. I actually don't like shallow DOF. Most of the time I would be setting the camera up to make the DOF pretty deep. The one area that is selling me is the lack of noise and low light ability. Even if I had to close the iris down to get useable focus, even if it turned out to only be as sensitive as the EX3 after I adjusted the lens, it would still have 60% less noise. That's a pretty big plus.

I looked at a VG10 recently, and it's a really nice cam. It can be an inexpensive training tool til the new NXCAM comes out. Plus, can't the E-mount and A-mount lenses be used on the NXCAM? I thought I saw a pic of the NXCAM with the e-mount 18-200 zoom, although I doubt the new cam and the VG10 have the same sensor.

I may get the VG10 just so I can learn about different lenses and smaller depths of field.

When I started out many years ago as a BBC assistant film cameraman, shooting with 35mm Arris and Cameflexes, part of my kit was a tape measure and American Cinematographer depth-of-field calculator tables. When the lighting cameraman had chosen the lens and given me the f. stop, I'd work out the distance to the subject and how much DOF I'd have to play with, pulling focus as necessary to pre-determined marks.
I'm slightly amused by the arrogance of some new-comers to shallow DOF cameras who think that they can just pick up the camera, and start shooting docs and other run 'n gun items. What's the betting that we're going to see a plethora of videos with hunting for focus shots - and shaky as well...
Get real guys - as it has been said earlier, choose the camera for the job; narrow DOF looks fine in some cases, but don't over-do it, 1/3 sensors are perfectly good for many productions - and it'll give you more time to concentrate on the subject matter.
Just don't diminish the craft...

My personal experience with 5DII and 7D is the exact opposite. I manage to attain much better stabilized handheld shots, than with the 1/3inch camcorders I was using before and I attribute that to the sensor's size, given their unfriendly form factor (I don't use rigs, because it negates the portability advantage).
Does anybody else has the same experience?

It's a matter of deciding your own personal priorities for the type of work you're doing. If you need a compact 14 x zoom lens as a priority, your decision could go the other way.

Jim Jannard mentioned late summer on a Scarlet thread. With all the build up, I expected a bit sooner than that, but given they need to meet a surge without bugs that seems to be a target date.

Hopefully, they'll also have essential modules like audio available from the start. Although, I wouldn't make any plans until you've got a camera in your hands.

On what basis do you make that assumption? Sensor size has nothing to do with the amount of rolling shutter. It is the read out and refresh rate that makes the difference. Alexa has negligible skew and that;s s35. Don't put all s35 sensors in the same basket as DSLR sensors designed for slow speed read out.


What on earth has image stability got to do with sensor size? Ergonomics... yes, but not the actual size of the sensor. Shoot the same field of view with two different sensor sizes and the amount of image motion will be the same for the same amount of camera shake.

I believe Jannard has said spring for Epic-X, with Epic-S to follow shortly after (late spring). The "late summer" reference was to when hoi polloi (i.e., those without reservations) might receive their Epics.

Scarlet 2/3, which I mentioned in particular, can shoot a very high frame rate (150 fps burst). That means it has an exceptionally fast readout for a CMOS sensor. We should be able to throw that camera around with minimal jello. I have no idea about the read-reset times of the NXCAM line, but it's also CMOS. Has a spec been released? My experience is with DSLRs.

The 5D2 has a 25ms rolling shutter delay. In theory, a 150fps camera would have no more than a 6.7s rolling shutter time, and it would probably be closer to 4 or 5ms in practice. When shooting 24fps handheld, we'd have stuttering and/or motion blur issues well before rolling shutter comes into play.

RED's specs slower frame rates for its larger sensor cams. That might be due to resolution rather than size though.

All rather confusing in a Scarlet thread, but some time later this year may cover the Scarlet 2/3" fixed zoom I suppose.

My bad. When I reread the thread, it wasn't actually clear which camera Jim Jannard was referring to. Someone had asked about the availability of Scarlet or Epic-S. He replied, "End of summer." That could mean either camera -- or possibly both -- will be available by that time.