DSR 250 Tape Loading Worry
 

I am hoping someone can put my mind at rest following an incident that occurred when I used my Sony DSR250P for the first time.

As I do not have a DV Cam video recorder I set the DSR250 up to record DV SP mode. However, rather than use dv tape, I have always used full size DV Cam tape in my VX9000 DV video camera. Naturally, I assumed I could use the full size DV Cam tapes to record on DV SP mode on the 250, given that the tape is the same as DV, albeit, supposedly better quality.

Unfortunately, this does not appear to be the case, as when I switched on the camera, in VCR mode, and inserted the tape and closed the compartment, I heard what I thought was the tape going through its loading process, albeit, I did think, a rather long process.

However, after a period of time I heard a few bleeps, which I assumed were an error code. I looked into the viewfinder and noted the error code, C-------- and the eject symbol. I then opened the tape cover and the tape self ejected.

I assume that what I thought was a long loading process was the tape attempting to eject, reload, eject etc? I tried loading another tape, however, this time I did not fully close the compartment lid, after another long loading type process the tape self ejected. No error message this time, I assume because the compartment lid was open.

After this I thought it may be related to the machine being set to record in DV SP mode, and that it wanted a DV Tape. Consequently I set the DSR 250 to DV Cam mode and reinserted a DV Cam tape. It loaded fine. So it would seem that the 250 will only work in DV SP mode if you use a DV Tape, strange, and NOT apparently mentioned in the hand book.

My real concern, it has really upset me, is that during the repeated loading type process which resulted in the error messag, I may have damaged my new camera. What do you think?

Thanks for any advice.

There are not, to my knowledge, any cassette coding devices which would tell the camera what type of tape is loaded. Other than mini vs full-sized.

I have run miniDVCam tape in my PD150 without problem but that does not necessarily extrapolate to full-size tapes in my DSR-300.

I have read postings on other forums where people use the full-sized DV tapes in DVCam recorders. Certainly my DSR-20 or DSR-300 have no warnings about this.

Furthermore, the camera/tape manufacturers are usually quite careful to mechanically disallow the loading of a harmful tape into a transport.

I doubt that you have damaged anything.

Call Sony's hot line support at Sony Business Solutions & Systems Technical Emergency After Hours Support (ERS)

For Emergency technical assistance for Broadcast Products after hours, on weekends and Sony holidays, call the Emergency Response System

Phone: (408) 435-8910 if you want after-hours support. Otherwise wait until Monday and call

Sony Business Solutions & Systems Technical Assistance Network (TAN)

Telephone support for technical / repair of Sony Business Solutions & Systems Products.
Hours of Operation: 8:30am - 8:00pm Eastern Standard Time
Phone: NEW TOLL FREE NUMBER (866) 766-9272

Note: When contacting your local service center select "service" at the auto-attendant prompt.

Then select option " 1" for TAN.

Listen for the Product category descriptions then make the appropriate selection relative to the product being serviced.

Your call will be routed to the next available Service Engineer specifically trained for that Model.


All of this can be found on Sony's Business and Professional Products Web site.
http://bssc.sel.sony.com/Professional/startpage.html

This is another advantage of having a pro product vs a consumer product from Sony.

Hi Allan,

On a couple of occasions I have had my 250 eject tapes after failing to load properly. In every case I have had the top cover open and looking down it was apparent that the tape was not sliding fully 'home' i.e. down then inwards towards the capstans.

I found when I inserted a tape that if I pressed the tape case down closer to the battery end it seemed to load ok everytime. Pressing at the centre or lens/front end occasionaly caused it to misload, almost like it was catching on something internally in the mechanism.

The above was with PDV184 DVCAM tapes. Never had the problem with miniDV tapes.

Mine is relatively new as well so if it plays up its going for back for servicing!

Thanks
 

Thanks to all that replied.

DSR250 Loading Errors
 

I get missloads every once in a while with my DSR250. I get them in the DSR200 and DSR300 as well. But after several hundred threads in each of these cameras, they all still work fine.

I think the problem is usually when the tape reels go from mini-DV to full size. But sometimes not.

Unless you force the tape in without letting the transport feed it, damage is unlikely.

Sony Dsr-270
 

Any information out yet on the new SONY DSR-270?

I haven't heard anything but then I had no clue about anything else new from Sony and look what they did without telling me. WOW! I'm mad ;-)
Don

Guys, This Isn't True Regarding PD150 vs. DSR250, IS IT?!
 

I was checking out this site, which someone said makes the best turnkey edit suites. While I was there I started poking around to see what else they were about. I came to a page where they're selling DSR250s. Here's what they say: "VIDEO IMAGE QUALITY of the DSR-250 is substantially better than the PD-150 or XL1s! In comparing the specifications between all of these cameras one would deduce that the PD-150 and DSR-250 have the identical optics and CCDs. Hence the image quality should be identical.
HOWEVER, using both of these units side by side reveals this is not the case at all. The DSR-250 produces video that is much closer to that of the DSR-300. Its Video has substantially greater detail, edge sharpness, color richness, and dynamic range over
video acquired from a PD-150 ... "
No way, right? And then they go on to say that the "AUDIO QUALITY on the DSR-250... far surpass[es]" that of the PD150 because "the mic pre-amps and AGC controls incorporated into the DSR-250 are much higher quality than those found in the [PD-150]".
Not true, right? And then they finish up with: "When you show up for a shoot packing this unit people know you mean business.
The 'impression' you make with a shoulder mount Sony gets you
instant respect and attracts a lot of attention."
I guess that last one's debatable. (Maybe should take it to a singles bar ;)
Anyone used both these cams?

http://www.saferseas.com/vsd/eye/eye2.html

The VX2000, PD150 and DSR250 have the same "engine." Perhaps the electonics is different with the DSR250, but from what I've read over the years the video quality is the same. The DSR300 is where everything changes. Perhaps BillKC will jump in and cut away some fat---by writing a nice long essay with some hidden but humorous meaning lodged ironically in-between a sentence or two. :)

Sounds like I might have to point my PD150 and DSR-250 at the same scene with exactly the same settings and do a screen grab and see what the diff actually is(if any).

One thing I will say for the 250 is that it is much easier to shoot with re the control layout i.e. dont have to get lost in menus to adjust the audio, gain up, iris etc etc. Much better CPSI (controls per square inch).

Jon,
Have you found that the 250 gives you "instant respect and attracts attention"? Actually, I *was* curious if you have noticed
any difference in the way you are regarded? (There was a thread recently on a Video University forum entitled "Big Camera ... Small Camera" and another one awhile back entitled "The Pro Look" where it was debated whether size really does matter, so far as client perception.) Your thoughts on this,
from the point of view of someone who's really been there, would be appreciated.

Hi Dave,

I'm still relatively new at video - have shot around 10 weddings, couple of stage productions etc etc. I would say that the 250 does carry a little more clout than the 150 - the general comment is 'will I be on TV?' which usually translates to a little more cooperation from others when trying to shoot the bride and groom without getting crowded out by the relatives :).

At the end of the day having both cameras allows me more flexability when shooting e.g. being able to shoot for 4+ hours continuously on the 250 without a tape change and better ergonomics versus using the 150 to grab high shots over a crowd, shooting in tight quarters and fitting into a small backpack.

IMHO If a client is paying for a service they are probably expecting a bit more than a guy turning up with a $50 tripod and a $500 handycam.

As an aside I recently shot an interview for a local politician using both the 250 and 150. When I showed them the final tape in front of the party, I used my little TRV-15 handycam as a play deck(plays DVCAM fine) - one of the committee members piped up 'We were expecting a bigger camera??'.

Opps.....;)



Jon

Jon,
If a videographer wanted to use the viewfinder on the 250 with their left eye rather than the right eye, do you think that would work? Is there any provision for adjustment of the viewfinder regarding the eyepiece's distance from the camera?
And are you able to shoot the ceremony with the 250 while it is shoulder mounted or must you use a tripod?

The viewfinder is the DXR-801 which is the same unit fitted to sonys higher end camcorders (DSR-390,570,D35). It has an adjustment that allows the eyepiece to slide left/right 2-3 inchs and forward/back around an inch or so. I just tried it via the left eye and it worked ok. Probably best to have a play first to make sure your happy with the setup.

I usually shoot the processions shoulder mounted then transfer the camera to the tripod for the ceremony. The 150 is set wide as my cutaway/safety cam to cover the moving feet - back of grooms head, minister, random sky shots that occur when I duck and head for the tripod ;). If the ceremony is going to be fairly short (15-20min??) you could probably get away with being on the shoulder preferably without using too much zoom to avoid the shakes. A good tripod with a fluid head will save your arm/back long term and be nice and stable.

There is a major difference in respect afforded the camera person between the DSR-PD150 and the DSR-300. I can go almost anyplace I want with the 300 on my shoulder. Add a boom operator and there are very few barriers to entry. Only on tightly controlled events with press passes do I have to have a badge.

Clients, even when they know my work, are impressed when I arrive with the 'big' camera. They appreciate my matching the camera to the job. But when it comes to planned and formal executive head shots, I'd better show up with the 300.

The DSR-300 certainly delivers a better picture in difficult situations (except low light) than the PD150.

Case in point. Last night I shot footage in a rehersal hall that is illuminated by the same crappy overhead lights they use in large discount stores. I had shot some footage with my PD150 several days before in the same location and the same people.

Admittedly I had a softlight on the top of the DSR-300 to fill shadows (this is footage to be used in a television commercial) but it's not strong enough (100 watts input) to overshadow the overhead lamps in any way.

The difference in processing shadows out beyond the reach of the camera-top light was significantly better with the 300.

When conditions are 'normal' the 150 does about as good a job as the 300. Detail and image processing are slightly better in the 300 images.

The one place where the 150 cannot compete, as has already been mentioned, is where the action is fast and the optics need rapid adjustment. Direct (and stepless aperature) control over lens settings is an overwhelming advantage of the 300.

I've reversed my use of the 150 and 300 on some shoots. I used to use the 300 for the locked-down wide shots and carry the 150. If I have to move around or the talent is moving around or the shooting conditions are changing, I now carry the 300 and put the 150 on the tripod because it is too slow to adjust.

Backache at the end of the day is about the same.

Steady Shot On or Off DSR 250
 

I have just started to use this feature. It does seem to make a difference.

I note in the instructions that it says to Turn Off Steadyshot when filming on a tripod.

If I "forget" to do this will I cause any harm to the camera/footage.

Do others use this feature?

It won't harm the machine but it can cause problems in your shots. What happens is that the camera thinks it is still moving when it isn't and adjusts the OIS.

Try panning onto a flag pole in stiff breeze with Steady Shot both on and off. You will likely find that it is very difficult to get the pan to stop where you want with Steady Shot on while on a tripod.

Steadyshot
 

Thanks for the quick reply :)

Hi Allan,

I use my 250 for shooting weddings and generally leave it on all the time. Turning it on and off means diving into the menu usually at just the wrong moment :(.

Try it either way and see what effect it has. I was quite surprised how much shake it took out especially at max zoom when shooting off the shoulder.

Cheerio

Jon

Steady Shot
 

Thanks Jon.

Its weddings that I am also filming.

Cheers.

I always turn on mine except when shooting in a place where there are lots of lights, you will get the flying fireflies...

DSR 250 Tape Loading Success
 

I wonder if I am the only user of the 250 that finds its tape loading system to be overly fussy.

Sometimes I can load the tape on the first attempt 3 or 4 times in a row, yet other times its about 3 or 4 attempts.

I normally push down the tape until the machine bites it, then I let go.

However, sometimes it only goes down a small amount and then get ejected by the camera.

I wonder if I am being too gentle? Should I give it a more firm push?

In comparison, the VX9000 was easy to load.

Thanks for any feedback.

Cheers.

Steadyshot
 

Thanks for the info Jun.

I have mine for a couple of months now but I never encountered that problem, either with a mini-DV or a DVCAM tapes. Yes I have to push it until the mechanism takes it and let it go but it never ejects. How old is your camcorder? Maybe it just needs cleaning on the tape mechanism. Have it check by a qualified Sony Service Center.

Tape Loading
 

Hi Jun,

I have had the camera about 6 months. I think it has been "fussy" since I got it. Its strange, as I can load 3 or 4 tapes with no problem, and then the 5th tape requires 2 or 3 attempts. This is weeks apart.

It will go in some way, stop and then come back out. If I reload it again following this it can load perfect.

This is what makes me think its not a fault, possibly a technique issue. Although, I have always found loading a tape to be pretty straigt forward in the past :)

Cheers.

What tape are you using? Are you using a miniDV tapes? I haven't tried loading five tapes in one event since I am using a large DVCAM 184 tapes and that will finish the entire occasion for the day.

Tape Loading
 

Jun, sorry to confuse.

Its one full size dvcam tape. Loading possibly one a week, I can load for 2 or 3 weeks no problem.

Then the following week it spits it back out. I can reload it and it goes in fine.

Cheers.

Really a bad practice to leave tape in a transport except when you are using the system.

Springs remain stretched, tension arms are left loaded as are some of the bearings in the transport. Sometimes tape is left in contact with the drum and heads, etc. And part of the tape may be left out of the cassette.

My buddy from Sony R&D in San Jose has a fit whenever anyone leaves a tape in their transports. Says it lessens the life of the transports more than anyone realizes.

Sony - please take note.
 

I'm on the fence on this one. On the one hand, Mike's suggestion makes sense (and I've seen this mentioned elsewhere). On the other hand, the only reference I can find to removing tapes is buried on page 158 of my VX2000 manual (and it basically says to do so when your camcorder is "...not to be used for a long period of time."). If someone in Sony R&D get excited about removing tapes from the transport, it begs the question why the Sony technical writers and product support specialists don't mention this in big bold letters on page 2 of the product documentation?

For the time being, I'll probably err on the safe side and remove tapes when I'm done recording. However, it sure would be nice if Sony would formally acknowledge this practice - either in an errata or addendum to the production documentation or some sort of formal announcement on their website. At the very least, it sounds like there is room for Sony to improve their internal communications.

Re: Sony - please take note.
 

<<<-- Originally posted by Steve Sawtelle : On the other hand, the only reference I can find to removing tapes is buried on page 158 of my VX2000 manual (and it basically says to do so when your camcorder is "...not to be used for a long period of time."). -->>>

Anytime a manufacturer places something negative in their printed literature, no matter how buried, I pay attentiion.

I think you're missing my point. How many people do you think have ever read page 158 of the VX2000 manual (or any other technical manual for that matter...)? On page 7 there is a section entitled "Precautions on camcorder care". If removing the tape from the transport is so important for the longevity of the tape transport, it seems like the technical writers would include in in this section. Further, on page 16 there is a section which actually leads the reader to believe it's in their best interest to leave the tape in the camcorder if they want to ensure smooth transitions from one recording to the next. I'm not trying to be argumentive here - rather I'm merely suggesting there is an opportunity for Sony to more clearly state their position on this issue and/or improve their product documentation.

My point is that they never will do that. If and when they mention something negative, it usually has to be a serious issue before they do so. Burying it is SOP.

I agree with you and did understand your point. But Sony will never do what you suggest.

News on DSR-270?
 

Anybody heard anything on the next generation of DSR-250? I am needing to get another 250, obviously don't want to just get the "old technology" although I find not much difference between the two, other than the excellent lens cap design.

Forget it! Sony is going over to HD.

Maybe Sony is but the world has not yet gotten there since the price of entry for the least expensive 'monitor' is still way up there compared to the cost of SD television.

DVDs didn't take off until the players got down in the $100 region. Most people cannot afford to spend even $500 on a television set if they don't have to .

So while we will probably get HD before it is an issue with our customers (we, on the other hand may very well want it for ourselves) I'm not certain ANY of my customers want HD right now. I reluctantly started offering DVDs just 6 months ago. I never lost a sale because of no DVD offering.

BTW, given the expense of the JVC HD camera with a single chip, what do you think the equivalent of a PD170 with 3 HD CCDs and the much higher quality lens will cost? If the camera is at all good, it will be pricey.

Yeah, and it (HD) has to be a shoulder-mount camera, else it would not fly in wedding videography -- the "look" of the setup is more important than the result, ironically.

I could use HD, it will be like having two cameras simultanously shooting at the same thing same time, for output as conventional 720x480i. Do the "zooming" in post, you can get a wide view or a closeup view depending on how you do the crop, presuming the quality is there due to the 1080i, and the glass and everything else is fine at that level. Hey, we can even get "idiots" to shoot then, as long as they can point in the general direction, ha, ha.

BTW, I am serious, does the above logic work if 1080i is available?

But PD-170 size is probably no-go.

If you feel you have to show up at a wedding carrying a 12lb. camera just to make an impression you are wrong. Some of the best work that I've seen has been done with palmcorders. Those guys are also getting upwards of 3K or more a gig. Bride's book videographers not on camera size but their work and referrals. What size camera you use probably rarely enters their mind.

Sony's HDV cam that they are revealing is indeed similar in size as the pd-170.

Guys, I split this thread and moved the wedding business issues portion to "Taking Care of Business," where I think it will get a LOT more attention.

It is a good discussion and more people need to hear/participate in it.

Dsr250
 

DSR250 price at B&H went up by $600.00, wonder why?

It sure did.

Well, guess I was lucky to get my 2nd DSR-250 before the price goes up.

If Sony is going to coming out with a DSR-270, by logic the price would go down instead of up. Perhaps Sony is discontinuing this "middle" model? You either have to go DSR-390 or 170?