XDCAM EX possibly at $6k
 

- Taken from freshdv -

The long-awaited Sony XDCAM EX officially launches on Thursday the 6th at IBC in Amsterdam, and we’ll (hopefully) get a closer look at some real, detailed specs. In the meantime, here are the details we’ve been able to glean on this very interesting camcorder.

Full story at http://www.freshdv.com/2007/08/sony-...nch-specs.html

Note from Admin: please don't cut & paste entire blog entries from other sites; just provide a blurb and a link. Thanks in advance -- CH

If it comes out a USD$6,000 (though I'd prefer AUD!) that will seal it for me I think. I'm still not wrapped about Long GOP encoding, but 1/2" sensors (assuming their 'that' much more light sensitive than 1/3" sensors) coupled with 'affordable' solid-state recording should do it for me.

Please Sony, let it be $6,000.

Don't worry about the long GOP encoding. There are different capabilities from one encoder to the next, and the Sony XDCAM MPEG encoding is very good.

-gb-

Sony should provide free 16 gig card with the xdcam ex. That would seal the deal.

If you're that worried about the long GOP you could connect it to the Convergent Designs Flash XDR gizmo via HD SDI. Well OK, this thing also records using HDV / XDCAM log GOP however it can do it at 50Mb/sec and in 4:2:2. Obviously you'll be filling up CF cards pretty quick but for studio shoots that shouldn't be too much of an issue.
The unit will not be cheap at around $5K however to buy a camera that records at that sampling etc is going to cost way, way more than an EX + XDR.

On one of my earlier posts, I had some rumors and other stuff I heard about the XDCAM EX. It was rightly moved to the area 51 section. Anyways,, one of the things that I heard was that the camera WOULD COST $6000! Not $8000 but $6000. This was one thing the source was quite clear about. So I think that will be the price.

Legit?
 

Does anyone know if Juan Martinez really is a "Senior Manager" at Sony? A guy claiming to be him left a comment at the FreshDV post saying of my features speculation "...some are correct but many are not accurate… for the most time they fall short!" You know, I don't mind being wrong when that is the case... :-)

NDA's are still in effect. Anyone that knows for sure, can't say.

-gb-

FreshDv picks up the $6,000 price point rumor from Area 51 at DVInfo, and then this thread uses that for a fresh rumor. C'mon guys, you can do better.

The prices have been set by Sony but even the dealers have not be told yet. Sony are keeping everything under very tight wraps until IBC. All those that know anything have been made to sign strict NDA's as Greg has said. What you can be assured of is a flood of information including reviews, frame grabs, clips, price points and tech specs on Thursday from both Sony and those that have actually used the camera in anger.

First Price
 

Just Googled "Sony PMW-EX1" and got this

http://www.google.co.uk/products?q=S...oogle&ct=title

Could this be the first offical price??? £3,995 Hmmm. I know my credit card is getting nervous.. I'll wait till I'm back from the IBC event to buy.. See you all there guys & girls..

But if you read the product description, it says...

"Pricing is not confirmed, but expect a list price of around £5,000+VAT in the UK."

What Time is the Launch???

Irish english time please and where is the best place to get the Specs???

I suppose here cause you hungry wolves will devour all the Techno specs as they are thrown at us.

Will be back tomorrow night so for the full whack.

Thursday 6 September


10:00 Evertz Hotel Krasnapolsky
11:00 Osmosys Room T, RAI
12:00 Sony Hotel Kraznapolsky
15:30 Grass Valley Venue tbc
18:00 Harris Venue tbc
18:45 Omneon Escape deLux (transport from Harris event)


This is the press conference time schedule taken off the IBC site.

Which means over here in Aussie land we'll have to wait to the 7th to get the news from the 6th! (Sigh....!!!!).

Cheers Vaughan

Australian product brochure in the wild
 

Official specs are out.

My questions are...
*Where is LANC? (divers are gonna be upset)
*SD Downconvert option when outputting over iLink?
*What in the blue blazes is a "1/2 inch type" sensor? Is it 1/2" or not? Why the "type" designation?
*Does Expanded Focus work while you are recording? (i.e, when it actually might be useful)?

I love the inclusion of the Depth-of-field Indicator, Spot Meter, and Histogram. And adjustable shutter angles + 4 CINE Gamma modes = Nice.

This is getting too much for me.. Too much excitment..

The specs are looking very impressive, apart from the Lanc option as pointed out by Matt. This camera does seam to do everything I need. For the kind of work I do, I'll need to add a matt box, more battery power for 6 hours and still keep it portable. Looks a cracking camera.

I would like to see some footage from this camera? Does anyone know of any links?

I'm going to have a bit of fun and stick my head out and say £3,995+vat will be Creative Videos introduction offer for the UK. I think Sony will price it, so they can wipe panasonic HVX200 off the map.

No Lanc perhaps but there may be other new options.

As soon as the official Sony press release is online I will post a link to a review and some frame grabs.

If you read that in context it's three 1/2-inch type “Exmor” CMOS Sensors, with the word 'type' belonging to the word Exmor. At least that's the way I read it...

It's common to say "type" after the size designation in CCD/CMOS imaging sensors because the inch designation was originally based on the size of old vacuum tubes. Modern sensors are not literally 1/2" across, but they still use the inch format "type" designation. So no worries--the sensors really are 1/2" format.

Frankly I'm very pleased to see them actually say type.

Because 1/2" has never been 1/2" nor has any sensor size (be it 1/3, 1/4, 2/3, etc.) *ever* actually measured up to be what it says it is. Those designations are holdovers from the old tube days, before image sensors came into being. From my old but still relevant article at Canon Optura DV Camcorder Lineage, Pt. 1:

"The nomenclature used in video camcorders is outdated, archaic and inaccurate, but for some reason the industry insists on hanging onto them. Your DV camcorder is referred to as a one-third-inch camera and lens because that's the size of the CCD image sensors inside the camera head. Except it really isn't. They're actually a bit smaller than that. One-third inch, one-half inch, etc. are tube diameters back from the days before CCD technology when video cameras used orthicon, plumbicon and saticon tubes for creating images. To make an image plane the same size as those tubes used to make, the CCD needs to be only as big as a 4:3 rectangle that would fit inside the diameter of that tube. Therefore, a one-third-inch CCD is actually a bit smaller than one-third of an inch. Then there's also the appalling practice of expressing other CCD sizes as mixed fractions, such as 1/3.4 of an inch. If the industry would simply switch to an actual millimeter measurement of the CCD diagonal, we'd all be so much less confused."

As Chris mentions, the old measurement is archaic and more and more were seeing irrelevance (to a point) of size vs performance.

Considering the DSLR markets its sensors via mm ratios, I'm not surprised the Camcorder market hasn't.

Lets face it, on a marketing standpoint, people really don't want to read into the fact that their camcorder sensor is about 9mm in size (if that).

I can see their point in using these size ratios for comparison to the competitor or target market demographic, but in real world uses, despite the fact that it is archaic, it still works and will continue to work unless the manufacturers themselves take a gamble and offer actual CCD size to pixel ratios.

Pricing
 

There is a link which states the price: http://www.broadcastingcable.com/article/CA6475992.html
"price of 6,500 euros ($8.875)"

Usually, everything european is higher priced than here in the US.

Different Level
 

While the 1/2in chips are nice, if the camera comes out in the US at that price, it will hardly be a Panasonic killer.

At NAB, Sony was saying the camera would be under $8,000. Of course, things do change.

I beg to differ... they're not trying to kill anyone. They're opening the doors for their existing DSR RNG users to consider HD options.

The XDCam units (using XDCam discs) are too high a price these days in regard to event videography (profit vs spend) and this camera in itself offers almost every feature the existing cams use and more.

For $8k US, it will be coming straight up against the XLH1 and JVC 250's in my opinion when considering price vs performance vs codec (which comes under performance) vs sensor, the market they are targeting is clear.

If the EX1 lives up to its specifications it should blow away the HVX200 in practical terms, especially if the memory cards are significantly cheaper. That said, I doubt current HVX200 users will suddenly find themselves questioning their cameras, and as always it's artistry which ultimately matters more than technology.

The HVX-200 is around $5,200 at B&H.

The features of the EX (lowlight and 1/2" chips) are worth a lot to me.

My guess is it will fall within reach of being a good value compared to the HVX-200.

But the HVX was a lot more than that at release. The prices you are seeing are the list prices so you can expect the on the shelf prices to be a little lower.

http://www.ingenioustv.com/xdcamex.asp

Kevin, sadly in the event world, and in this particular case, technology WILL play a major part in all this.

I agree that its not the tools but how you use them, however in this case, this particular tool not only allows for improved environmental control (ie low light performance as one example) but codec efficiency out in the field, price (one EX with two cards is pretty much the same price as one HVX with two cards... what would you go for if you were sitting on the fence?), ergonomic size vs clients perception of "size = quality" and above all else CCD DR and DoF management (comes with CCD size).

I'm all for Panasonic gear... hell, i still shoot weddings with my DVX100's but for me, after selling off two Z1's and waiting for the "camera for me" to come I think I may have found it with this.

Exactly. The cost of an EX1 with a few hours' worth of memory cards will likely be less than the equivalent HVX200 setup, especially if the EX1 works with generic ''SSD'' memory. You can currently buy 32GB SSD cards for a little over $500 which would hold at least 100 minutes of full-quality XDCAM footage, or $1000 for over three hours of continuous recording time. 32GB P2 cards are expected to cost $1800 for 32-80 minutes (depending on recording mode), or $3600 for under three hours of recording. For event work in particular this is a no-brainer in favor of the EX1, and if the low-light performance is better (as expected) then that's a clincher for high-end event videographers.

I see nothing sad about this: the EX1 appears to be a great camera at a reasonable price considering what it does. It won't knock off the HVX200 for all purposes but it should sure as heck give it a run for our money...

I'm interested in this last statement. I am in the process of buying a camera and have held off on an HVX-200 specifically to see whether the EX would change my mind.

I am primarily interested in indie narrative stuff, with perhaps the occasional documentary. Just out of interest, in what applications do you see the EX not knocking off the HVX?

Thanks in advance,
Matt

I've been messing around with 35mm adapters on my FX1, and with a Canon too, trying to develop that more "filmic" feel. With the 1/2 chip, and progressive output, this camera might make me put that stuff away.

Kevin, when you get yours, would love to see some footage shot against one of these adapter set ups :)

" if the low-light performance is better (as expected) then that's a clincher for high-end event videographers"

Not only that, but noise perfomance and codec performance should easily outperform most of what is available today in this form factor vs price

The bigest issue event videograpehrs face today is low light performane were not talking simply capturing a dark area, but im refering to ACCURATE colour rendition in lower lit environments.

Theres a huge difference here.. The codec itself, put up against DVCproHD, is comparable.
Out in the real world of events, i can tell you that not many people will notice the difference between the 2. Clients certainly will not, and youll even be hard pressed to differentiate HDV. Its not as black and white as the marketing blurbs make them out to be

Certainly they have their differences, but for events, the P2 transfer speed and capacity just doesnt hold up.. Ive tried... Price is also a major factor as is image resolution and colour rendition.

The CMOS size, inherant DoF control and zero scaling requirements at capture are the biggest differentiating factors here.

If this camera can retain image sharpness and accurate colour response in low light with gain levels up to 18 being as clean as they are in SD, (and i believe 18db WILL be clean as the sensor itself is inherantly more responsive,) then it will definately set the standard for future gear of this nature

From here, i wouldnt be surprised if Pana are working on a a HPX handheld equivalent using AVCHD to go up against the EX monster...

The HVX 200 still has the far better codec. But in my mind the XDCAM EX more than makes up for that with it's other features.

I mainly said that for the benefit of those who like the HVX200 and/or need to work in the DVCProHD format, but overall I'd say the HVX200 is now seriously outclassed. The main things the HVX has going for it are a frame-based recording format and 4:2:2 color space, which could be useful to some people in situations involving a lot of motion or requiring extensive color processing. However, the value of those features is hampered by the low-resolution sensor of the HVX200 and horizontally compressed recording, which might not do any better than the EX1 in practical terms in demanding situations. We'll get a better idea of that once we see some hands-on reviews and sample footage from shipping versions of the EX1.

Plus the high cost of P2 cards is ridiculous for anything other than short-take projects, so if the SXS cards are significantly cheaper that's pretty much end of discussion for some of us. If I was spending over $5K on an HD camera today I wouldn't even look twice at the HVX200 unless I knew that was what I needed for some particular reason, and the people who fall into that category probably already own the HVX.

Our production studio has shot and owned a bunch of cameras in the past (dvx100b, XH-A1, XL-H1, Hvx200 and (shot on a lot with Sony Z1), and in our humble opinion the Panasonic gamma is the closest to being the most "cinematic" and film like (although its not going to give you that 35mm look). Canon and Sony has that discovery channel HD video look, very crisp and detailed.

DVCPRO HD is also 4:2:2 which gives you advantage when "keying". There is a huge possibility that this EX is going to be our first sony cam. Cannot wait to see first real footage from this 1/2" EX.

Agreed. At this point (and based upon what we know), the advantages I see to the EX (for my purposes) are:

1) Cheaper media
2) Higher resolution (natively)
3) Filmic DOF w/o an adapter

I would really like to see footage to see whether #3 is solid as has been touted. Personally, over and under crank at 1 fps probably isn't of much more practical use than the current abilities of the HVX-200 and the low-light sensitivity is probably a less significant issue on a well-lit set.

All in all, though, the EX looks like a very nice addition for Sony.

[QUOTE=Chris Barcellos;740266]I've been messing around with 35mm adapters on my FX1, and with a Canon too, trying to develop that more "filmic" feel. With the 1/2 chip, and progressive output, this camera might make me put that stuff away.
QUOTE]

if youve ever used a 1/2 camera, the differences in DoF control are apparent.. to a point of slapping you in the face... not as shallow as an adapter admitadly, but considering the focal length of the lens in addition to the size of the sensor itself, you will get VERY close performance... dont forget, most filmic shots are in fact shot with the cam about 20metres away from the subject and zoomed through to fit the frame. DoF is relative and the lack of want for these peripherals IMO will be another selling point.

Understandably, it wont be the same as an adapter, but the image will inherantly be richer/accurate than HDV due to codec but the sensor itself will also assist.. not to mention the superior lens

"I am primarily interested in indie narrative stuff, with perhaps the occasional documentary. Just out of interest, in what applications do you see the EX not knocking off the HVX?"

At this point, i can only say codec and weight. Other might find somethign else.. The HVX DVCproHD codec in my eye is superior for certain uses. BUT the camera itself scales up to HD res. As for weight, the EX is apparently 3kg
I also feel that no other camera (that ive come across to this date) will ever be able to emulate or reproduce the "panasonic look" The DR of pana cameras is IMO far surperior straight out of teh camera and the gamma controls within the cameras are very accurate. Even the DVX curves are closer to what one might expect when PP any given shot

When the HVX was launched, i once said that i believe the camera was before its time. The workflow and cost requirements of P2 have locked the HVX into a format, codec and market demographic which is workable, but its not workable for everyone. Sadly, i have no choice but to jump ship away from panasonic simply becuase the recording format and P2 cost simply isnt justified for what i do

I stand by that now, but Sony it seems have looked upon technology and how its evolved and have adapted to accomodate.
In turn, almost everyone can use this camera for any purpose.. the fact i can run it conintuously for over 2 hours straight without changing cards is a huge deal for me.
Then if i have to transfer footage, my times are at least 4 to 6 times faster than relatime. P2 isnt this fast.
Out in the field, you can easily work an entire days shoot, like a wedding, using only 2 16gb cards and a lappy with an external drive. The tranfer speeds are fast enough to not break the flow of recording, and this is the fundamental difference between the P2 and the SxS.. size codec etc dont mean anything.. its when your transfering that it all comes together

Fair enough. Thanks for the response.