I did some more testing on the loan camera from Sony today.
Besides a slight vignette (this time on all 4 corners(!) ), it has a strange focus phenomenon.
Whenever aperture is set to 2.8 or wide open and things are very far away at the infinity mark of the lens, I just cant get a sharp image no matter what I try. When I zoom in fully and manually set focus and zoom out everything gets extremely blurry (not just slightly blurry, but really extremely!). I have also checked with a focus chart which was about 5 meters away and everything looked o.k. The back focus seems to be perfect within this closer range. There is also absolutely no tracking of the lens. I just cant get sharp wide shots with aperture fully open and the lens near infinity. Everything was set to full manual mode of course.
Any hints? Do your cameras do the same? I *think* my camera, which is at Sony for repair at the moment, did not do this, but I could be wrong.

regards,
Gerald

No issues here

Paul,

Send it back. And if your "future" new camera comes back with issues - send it back too... and repeat until issue solved. Do NOT accept anything less than a great picture from a 7k camera. Especially at this point when others have no issues, which means this camera is capable of a clean picture (at least now.)

Yes, it's unfortunate they dropped the ball in the first place with QC, but they seem to be putting things right in the larger picture. And yes, I'm playing armchair quarterback because I don't own one yet, but I've been devouring these threads because I order mine on the 13th, so I'm hoping for the best - prepared for the worst. And I live in Vegas, with NAB and other future "beauties" just around the corner, and I'm still willing to gamble on this particular beauty. (I also know my resolve not to let them or anyone else take my 7000 clams and hand me a lemon.)

And if you need further reasons to get yourself a new camera - do it for precedence. Let them know anyone who pays 7k for a CINE ALTA Branded Camera, will not settle for anything less than - what Sony Marketing wants us to think of when we see the CINE ALTA Brand - EXCELLENCE. So if you won't do it for yourself, do it for the team. I promise to do the same after I get my order if the case need be.

Do yourself a favor and get the camera you paid for,
Lonnie

I admire your resolve; however, don't you think they should suspend production and correct existing problems, rather than shipping product that does not meet expectations? As you stated, it's a gamble as to whether you'll get a clean unit with no problems or one that has to go back and forth for repairs.

This is exactly what is putting many people off. I don't expect a perfect camera, just one without major issues. Poor optical performance (whether it's the glass or the camera behind it) is just unacceptable in a $7k device.

I don't see how anybody, pro or amateur, can gamble their money and time on this.

What is the likelihood they introduce a de-buggeed model in the near future?

Damn right, Bob! I agree with this 100%. But, I sat up with a cup of coffee and poured through these 35pages. Then I perused other forums. Sony seems to be, at least now, shipping Post QC cameras without this issue.

And I have to assume, that there are a few cameras somewhere, that may slip through the cracks - but they are fixable. And the optimist in me, would like to think that Sony QC is now not releasing any future, just off-the-assembly-line-cameras out with this problem. If they are, tracking the serial numbers on these forums will be a great benefit to all.

Maybe that's the ticket. Maybe our maestro, Chris Hurd, could start a thread where everyone posts their serial number and whether it shipped vignette free or shipped with problem. This would really put pressure on Sony to stop releasing any more "problem" cameras - Because it would be traceable and trackable. And would put future purchasers on notice, by checking how their camera falls in line with other production models. It would also serve to inform buyers who have not tested to go hmmm, "my camera's serial number lies in the middle of a sequence of serial numbers with a problem - the odds are my camera is defective - I should test it!"

What do you guys think - I'm all for a little consumer-supported-pressure to ensure Sony does the right thing. And for those that say blindly - Sony is already doing the right thing. Well, I'll say by tracking their serial numbers - we could only prove this... or not.

What do you think?

Lonnie

You're suggesting it's a batch problem. I'm not all that convinced it's a batch problem...?

Gerald, I think most of them actually are or can be (e.g. when it's cold) out of focus with the FM focus ring past the infinity mark, at the tele hard stop; this is documented in the manual.

That said, I agree with Chris - the vignetting is not a batch problem; I've always maintained it's a design problem. Tolerances are just so tight one must be very lucky to get an acceptable unit. This is why I will not ask for a replacement until Sony resolves the issue (if and how they do it, I have no idea, though)...

Chris Hurd - you are in the know...

Are you convinced that the issues are fixable with a drop shipment back to a Sony tech bench?

Or is the design between lens and camera not up to snuff and...
Houston, we have a problem!

Where is your gut, sources, tea leaves leading your thoughts on this right now?

Well CRAP! Now I'm a little uncertain - I confess.

For those that are longer in the tooth, if Sony is quietly going back and redesigning, or adjusting, and fix the problem, would they offer the beta-buyers an exchange in your experiences? Or would they market it as the EX2?

It's all speculation, I know but... UGH!

Where's our Sony rep to shed some light on this?

...and Chris, if you are right and it's not a batch problem, wouldn't a thread dedicated to posting every single serial number with an issue, put the free world on notice and force Sony to say, "oops, those guys at DVinfo are on to us... and they are airing our dirty laundry to boot! Stop production, recall, and let's make this right."

Lonnie
p.s. and yes, i'm in a mood!

Piotr,
thanks for the tip. Most lenses I worked with (even very expensive ones) are not in focus beyond the infinity mark at the end of the scale, but that is not the problem on this camera. I always zoomed in - focused, and then zoomed out only to see a blurry image. When I´m zoomed out there is no way to get a sharp image at all - no matter what I try - its always terribly blurry at f1,4 in fully wide.

Chris is right, it's not a batch problem that's for sure.

I'm on my second camera which also has vignetting.

I must confess, I'm actually a bit blown away that a $7,000 camera has this issue.

I'm hoping Sony is going to make it right for all those affected.

Again, solely based on the assumption it's not batch but design:
 

I'm not a sit back and hope kind of guy... Let's pressure Sony. Period.

If Sony found out that one of the largest, most respected forums in the world dedicated to camcorder owners and future owners, has a dedicated thread for EX1 owners to post their serial numbers and whether they have a vignette issues or not - and if you are correct, and this is a design issue, the number of BAD cameras would be staggering - this is press they do not want involved with their CINE ALTA line.

This kind of pressure would certainly lead to some better resolve than what we are presently, willfully, accepting. And that is how I see it - they aren't doing the right thing yet, because we the consumers are not forcing them to... again on the sole assumption it's a design problem and not a quick work bench fix...

And I would hold off on my purchase if there was some sort of consensus to do so. But there won't be - so there's no consumer pressure there. But by purchasing and posting problems - this may get better/faster resolve in the long run. And the consumer still benefits in the interim by getting a still better than DV25 images (at least of non-white walls...)

Am I crazy or does this make sense in this consumer versus Goliath situation.

(And for the consumer who can wait out the storm and hold off on their imminent HD camera - enjoy the ride...)

Lonnie

I think Piotr is correct. The margin on their specs are just to tight.

I think they need better QC on their lens. This seems the deciding factor if there's room for adjustment or not.

I think you are on the right track, Lonnie, but am skeptical that even having a list of bad cameras and unhappy customers would provoke a response. Some people will purchase because they are oblivious to the issue, are willing to gamble or figure they will just get it fixed. There are still people buying Leica's digital rangefinder and that thing does not work properly without an add-on filter.

I was thisclose to ordering one, but I can't gamble my money or time that I'll get a good unit. And I can't support a company that's asking me to gamble in the first place. When they come out and say definitively that the problem is fixed and all units shipping are free of defects, then I'll consider ordering.

My guess is that they've already produced a bunch of cameras and they want them out of their warehouse and/or they are in over their head with the engineering and don't want to admit it.

Well, they did address the issue, but apparently no where near 100%.
My last camera was from a later batch and still has vignetting.

With due respect to all parties involved, I would ask you to please refer to recent history as that is always the best indicator of the immediate future (history is cyclical, and large corporations are very slow to change): there have been some issues in the past with one or two Sony pro-line camcorder models, and while those issues are usually resolved eventually, they are hardly ever announced with any fanfare whatsoever. Sony fixes are usually silent. And corporate policies, like the cameras, are made in Japan.

For me things have changed a lot after my recent communications with Sony over my camera. All this talk about returning the cameras for repair and/or asking for a replacement means nothing if Sony are saying that these issues are not issues at all.

If Sony prime support will not do anything further then what else can I do?

In most other respects the EX1 is a great camera, but this flaw makes me nervous every time I use it.

Paul.

What is the serial of the loaner? My first camera (#1000012) exhibited this exact behavior. I was whining about it here several weeks ago but no one would confirm or deny anything similar, so I can only assume mine was the only one. It was eventually replaced with another (but not before Sony repair gave it a clean bill-of-health and returned a still defective unit). But Sony (my dealer) indeed replaced it and the new camera is much better, although tracking is still not perfect. Makes me wonder how prevalent this could be, although it's barely noticeable >2500 serial numbers later. The 90 day U.S. labor warranty is about to expire for early adopters.

One interesting new development concerns the iris. After shooting all afternoon in manual, I powered the camera up to find the iris would not move, as if auto-iris had taken control. OK, must have bumped it. Nope. Everything was still set to manual, but it would not budge. Re-set power again and all was well. I'm willing to chalk it up to user error somehow, but this was not the first time it has happened.

Knowing the imperfections and how to avoid them is my current plan, as I cannot afford to be without the remarkable pictures it produces for yet another month.

Gerald, does your infinity focus improve if you roll it all the way back the other direction, 0.8 m, once you get wide?

Bill,
the serial is 0402753. Unfortunately I did not read your thread where you described the problem with your camera.
After some more testing at dawn I found out that the problem is much worse if one of the ND filters is on. Without it, wide open aperture is acceptable, but not perfect. As soon as one of the ND filters is on - the pictures gets blurry.
The infinity does not improve if I roll it back the other direction.
I´ve tried to reproduce this effect with my old Sony 370 and the Panasonic 615 which have very good lenses - and I could only achieve it when I switched to macro mode or misaligned back focus.
I have to rush to a shooting now (with the Panasonic) and will call Sony later this afternoon.

cu,
G

In my opinion, the units shipped out as of today are most likely defect free. The question is, when will they hit store shelves? Do you guys think that if one waits till the last week of this month to meet the deadline for the sxs card, would that help in any way to get a non defective camera?

Thoughts...comments....

Dennis,
I'd like to think so, and I'm the guy talking about gambling on it (hell, I live in Vegas!) and not waiting till NAB, but the more seasoned guys have kind of shared their disappointment with the design flaws...

So, not to my usual trait - I'm going to sit idle, and wait for other pros to get their cameras and test... And if Chris Hurd's hints that Sony's fixes trickle out slowly and quietly suddenly surface - then I'll definitely chomp. Upside is, the images from these disappointments still beats out anything in it's class - it's still amazing!

I hate being idle, but here I sit... March 13th was my day to bite - we'll see what happens till then...

Lonnie

Well...
After having my first camera sent in and coming back not fixed and also now owning a replacement camera with vignetting, I can't say I would agree.

Steven,
Have you gone out shooting real world stuff with it and if so, how's the images and do you notice the shadowy corners... and if you post more clips of your living room walls I'm gonna hurt ya :)

Lonnie

I'm thinking of calling sony directly and talking to the department that handles customer complaints to get to the bottom of this and figure out the serial numbers affected. I will be shocked if by the end of this month they are still selling defective cameras, being more than 4 months after their launch. In my opinion, this issue should be cleared out in the next month or so otherwise they will have to scrap this design and just create a new model with the same features with no glitches.

Dennis,
refer them to this link - it's 37 pages of not so positive stuff...
or 37 pages of why to not purchase this Sony Cine Alta until you fix the lens to camera gizmotics (technically speaking of course)...
Lonnie

What serial number cameras did you get?

Only when the focal length is between 10-25 mm and there is a flat background such as sky, walls, ect... So to answer you question, yes.

It's not as bad as my first, but it's there. Also, this is with OIS OFF. With OIS on it's worse due to movement.

I got an EX1 last week, i've had a quick look for vignetting but don't see any. Admittedly i'm only looking on the lcd screen at the moment as i've no time to test properly but i believe it can be seen on the LCD (if i remember previous threads correctly). I've shaken it around a bit for OIS as well but nothing. I think i can detect some lens vignetting but it's very subtle and what i would expect anyway.

This is from serial number that starts 40xxxx

cheers
paul

To say this is disappointing is an understatement, Steven.

After more systematic test with the loaner camera this afternoon I called Sony to complain.
Well, they still do not know what´s going on with my original camera. It is still at the repair shop... I complained about the lens issue of the loaner camera. The problem now is that they do not have any more loaner cameras left they could send me - I got the very last one!!! Looks like I will have to live with it for a while.

What I found out during my tests today:

- Zoom in with ND off - aperture wide open at f1.9 - focus near infinity mark - zoom out - image is o.k. and sharp (did not test this before without ND)

- Zoom in with ND ON - aperture wide open at f1.9 - focus near infinity mark -zoom out - image is extremely blurry

- Zoom in with ND ON - aperture set to f5.6 or higher - focus near infinity mark -zoom out - image is o.k.

It looks like that the ND filter is the only cause for the blurriness?? I bet my camera is not the only with this issue - you can easily try for yourself... Looking through some older footage I shot with my original camera, I guess it might have the same problem (I did not do this zoom test during the 2 days I had it before I sent it back to Sony for repair.)
I´ve retried the suggestion to improve the infinity focus by fully rolling it all the way back to 0.8 - and guess what - to the contrary what I said yesterday - it works! So whenever I want to shoot a wide landscape with ND-filter ON I have to manually set the focus to 0.8 instead of the traditional method of zooming in, focusing and zooming out. So if I want to shoot a zoom from something far away and end in a wide shot, I have to pull the focus during the zoom!! How sick is that? Thats a phenomenon I just cant explain.
The vignetting issue is also visible in real world situations - like when filming a blue sky - so no need to shoot another living room wall ;-)

Sorry for my ramblings and thanks for letting me vent ;-)

cu,
Gerald

Just a theory - most cameras use a clear filter internally for "ND Off" (or zero) so that the backfocus does not change when a filter is selected. It's sometimes called a compensating filter. (You'll also see it in periscope lenses and long motion picture zooms with internal filters).

Because of the all-servo all the time nature of the EX1 lens (with internal LUTs for backfocus adjustment) is it possible that the EX1 compensates for ND filters electro-mechanically and that this compensation is not working on certain cameras?

I have seen similar complaints on other sites about focus issues which occur "outdoors and not indoors" and I wonder if this is due to there being no clear compensating filter inside the lens for the ND0 "indoor" setting, with the camera relying on a pre-set servo compensation instead (which fails for some reason).

My camera is just as sharp with any of the ND setting, so I know it's not a design issue.

I feel a little guilty as my EX1 serial 40XXXXX delivered in the UK last week seems to be ok. It does prove that Sony can get it right. I have now shot B-Roll pictures for intercutting with HDCAM and it looks good. I have a timeline with HDV,EX1,and HDCAM all ingested via HD-SDI. I am pleased the way the formats mix together. Will try and work out how to post a sequence for viewing over the coming week.

The only downside of the EX1 so far is the constant fear that the flimsy on/off/playback switch will pack up at any second and that the plastic retainer straps on the A/V / USB cover will not last long, the HD-SDI BNC socket cover has long gone awol.

Thanks for your feedback, Gerald. Now that I think about it, the ND-2 filter was always engaged when the tracking issue was apparent (bright exteriors). I never thought to test without. That could explain why Sony repair, or anyone besides you and me, have been unable to reproduce the problem. As I said before, the new unit is much improved in this regard, but due to the critical nature of focus with HD, I'm relying more on expanded focus in these instances rather than zoom in/focus/zoom out to frame shot. Not ideal.

I do too rely on expanded focus rather than zoom in / zoom out. This is a must do when working with the macro mode ON, as you will lose the macro if you zoom too far (40mm).

Of course I´m using expanded focus as well (I could not live without it) - but also fully zooming in on the subject which is of course useless with this lens issue ;-)

So I called Sony....
 

I called Sony professional tech support number where they are taking calls about the EX-1. I addressed the issue with the vignetting and backfocus issue and they said that the problem was only in the first batch and all serial numbers above 110,000 are not defective which cant be true. I told them some of your horror stories and even told them to come and take a look at close to 38 pages worth just on the vignetting issue. He assured me that the problem was fixed. If i'm not mistaken, there are people with serial number in the 200,000+ range with this issue.

Dennis, I don't think the serial numbers are sequential like that. The first digit seems to be some sort of region or series code and the rest of the digits are the actual serial number.

For example 200,001 was built before 110,000.

1xxxxx seems to be for the US cameras and it could be that after 10,000 they got it fixed. I am not sure that I've seen any complaints from anyone with the last 5 digits over 10,000. Anyone?

I agree with you but thats what he said and I was confused. Also, I dont think I have heard of anyone with the last 5 digits being over 3,000. I may be wrong

Are you sure about the 6-digit numbers? Mine is 0400653 (7 digits); do you mean that Sony says anything above 0,110,000 is OK (or should it read 1,100,000?)

If it's the former, it's simply not true. If the latter, than how many did they sell already?!!

Very confusing indeed. I think you guys should start calling Sony directly and lettign them know of this issue because the more they are aware the more they will do something. Here is the number to get in touch with the department that is handeling this situation> 1-800-883-6817 and then press 252
. They will be able to give you more answers

I'm furious at the moment so probably shouldn't post right now but I have to vent some steam.

Sony are basically saying that although they can see the problem in my example footage they could not replicate it when testing my camera so will not do anything further until I can provide evidence that a problem exists!

What other evidence can I provide?

I feel like I'm being treated as a liar now, man I really thought dealing with Sony was going to be different to this.

Paul.