Hi Bill,

You can find the explanation here:

http://pro.sony.com/bbsccms/assets/f...ture_Edges.pdf

Cheers, and all the best for the New Year!

On other cameras I usually leave the knee aperture off, although it probably doesn't harm to have it on. The effect that it has is usually negligible.

EX3 specific profile settings
 

I "think" I just read through all the posts in this thread. Can't tell yet because the room is still spinning.. Do I understand this accurately - as of yet there exist no profile settings developed 'specifically' for the EX3? Because if that's the case I'm taking this EX3 to Santa Cruz - home of Paolo Ciccone, creator of the "True Color" profile settings for the HD100.

I have to wear a helmet to keep my brain from swelling when we talk about cameras. Man's a genius

There is no magic setting Eric. Setting a camera up to a DSC Labs ChromaDuMonde will give a very neutral picture. By DSC's own admission, by setting up to one of their charts you are setting your camera up for a base level. Quite a flat, but accurate look as a starting point from which you can push things in the direction that you want.

On the other hand I was advised by one of the Sony engineers not to set up to a DSC chart. For their European cameras Sony set up using industry standard and accepted EBU charts, which quite clearly give different results to the DSC ones.

When it comes to creating 'looks' I find that it is like a dog chasing its tail. One of the keys to creating great looking video is shooting when there is pleasing light, or artificially lighting nicely. No amount of tweaking is really going to make a flat overcast day look good. Certainly the picture can be made more punchy, but detail risks being crushed as a result. Better I find to create an accurate representation of what is there and then tweak anything else in post. Or organise the project such that 'beauty' shots need to be scheduled around good light and weather.

Personally I think that Cinegamma 4 is great, plus perhaps HiSat. If you really are having issues with the harshness of the light then use Cine 1 so that you can raise your exposure and bring your shadows up while still retaining highlight detail.

Most other niceties will be taken care of by careful white balance (not just blind white balance), and the detail settings of the camera.

Going back to the DSC charts for a moment, I think that in order for there to be consistency people should list the steps they took with lighting, initial camera settings (ie making sure that their white balance is at 3200k and that their lighting is matched at precisely 3200k since this is what the cameras factory defaults are optimised for. Although I was told by by DSC Labs that you can white balance to your light, I cannot see how this can be done without skewing the results. After all we have to play dumb and assume the camera is tuned for 3200k and that we are bringing it in line with the DSC chart under precisely these conditions), and post a grab of their chart. These things need careful setup with totally even light and zero reflections. If such things are ignored then people will get wildly different, and inconsistent results from their settings.

In response to Clark's request, and following up on Simon's observations about Detail setting, I have a detail profile from a prior post in this discussion that I'm very happy with and still using.

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/955623-post359.html

My issue with DETAIL ON is one few people will admit to. With detail on, as you point out, Tom, halos begin to form. No matter how much you suppress the halos, they're still part of the image. Essentially, this is mosquito noise which pushes the compression algorithms in the camera encoder really hard. Encoding halos sucks up bandwidth that would otherwise be available for image information. All this is most apparent when downrezzing to DV resolutions in line twitter and image softness.

And so, I'm experimenting to see what happens with Detail ON at -20 to -40, which is for all intents and purposes, OFF; and frequency turned up as Symon suggests.

I also find Sony's comments rather curious. My profile for the EX1, posted here, was developed with ChromaDuMonde charts from DSC. I find that my profile gives a much richer image than the Sony settings, which I find extremely flat. So, I have to laugh at the Sony rep's comments. To each his own. I shoot what I find most pleasing and I have shared this info. I don't really care what other think of my profile. Most seem to like it, some don't. What's the big deal?

It might also be worthwhile to note that I found it impossible to completely dial out red saturation when I developed my profile. This is indicative of a bias in the sony sensor which cannot be overcome. Perhaps Sony would rather this not be known. I've developed a seperate profile which I have not shared, that uses other methods to force a lower gain on the red channel. That profile produces a very flat, unsaturated image.

After prolonged work with Serious Magic's HDRACK scopes, I've finally invested in an analog WFM and vectorscope. While HDRAck communicates via firewire, the new analog WFM connects via analog component. I'll be very interested to see how the results compare with my original profile. That's not to say that component is the same as HD-SDI, either, but, HD-SDI scopes are priced out of my budget, for the time being.

Bill, try the setting and then critique it. I've very interested in your opinion about it.

He's a bit more than just a rep!

But the issue here is not about a rich image or a pleasing image, it is about a neutral baseline setting, which is what the Sony defaults are, and also what a setup to the DSC chart does (by DSC's own statements).

There isn't one. I'm just pointing out that the DSC chart and also the Sony default aim for a baseline neutral setting and not necessarily the most pleasing image. DSC themselves point out that the CDM chart is not intended to give a pleasing image, just the most colour and tone accurate from which to develop things further.

Sony cameras have always been harder to align to the DSC than other makes. The Panasonic broadcast cameras have always had far better matrix adjustment than the Sony cameras, even the F900.

Tom, I have a copy of your settings carefully tucked into my camera manual. I have been experimenting with different combinations of your settings, my settings, and now Simon's settings. Thanks for those.

I said it before (so I might as well say it again), if you blow off the Detail Set as being unnecessary you are missing out on some of this camera's capabilities.

Pete

Simon, i use detail on, set to -15, any more than that and i can start to see the artificial outlines which you mention, so if adding more detail makes these lines more apparent, ie makes them thicker i suppose, how is adding or subtracting detail different from adding or subtracting Frequency ?

I also notice that detail adds noise in the blacks, especially more so when the gain is on, this is another reason why i don't add any more detail, i do prefer the detail look though, as oppose to no detail at all. So could you advise on a Crispening setting just for helping with the noise in the blacks.

Thanks for the proper down to earth explanations.

Paul.

Right, I have to answer this with the caveat that I do not know the full ins and outs. My assumption would be that the main detail setting sets what could be termed the opacity of the detail enhancement lines while the frequency sets the width of them. I'll have to delve into it more and come back to you because some cameras like the F900 allow a negative setting that actually softens the image.

Yes detail will apply across the board. There are no magic settings for the crispening, you really need to look at the image via a high quality waveform to see what is really happening so you don't end up killing actual detail. Pro cameras also have a level depend setting that allows you to set the luminance level that the enhancement begins so you can fine tune the noise in only the shadows, while crispening applies to to the whole image.

Thanx for saying this. I've been looking for a portable, 6" display, battery powered histogram, wfm and vectorscope. Seems very few are made except by HAMLET, which is in your neck of the woods, Simon. Their website is rather sketchy, but, very interesting products. I've written them some weeks ago, with no reply. Have you heard of them?

Crispening (on the EX1) is a waste of time. Turn it one way, it gets noisy, the other way, it gets soft and still noisy. It seems to have more adverse consequences with regards to artifacting than it is worth. Leave it at zero.

You won't see much of the supposed narrowing or widening of the halo outlines from the frequency adjustment either. It's very subtle. Simon sez +40, my preset says +65, whichever floats your ice cream, it's not going to be much different. You need to be fairly bold with that setting so that whatever detail outlines drawn are more like a fine artist pencil rather than a piece of chalk.

The adjustments that have the most obvious influence are:
- Level
- White Limiter
- Black Limiter.

If you want to get rid of the halo outlines, you NEED the White Limiter and Black Limiter. If you just reduce the Level to -15 and don't do anything else, ugly halos will remain very obvious on distant horizons, which ruins a nature shot. But if you Set the White and Black Limiters both to +75, and the Frequency to +65, you can have the Level setting as high as 0 or +1 without these objectionable halos being noticeable. Thereafter, if you find the noise too much, start reducing the Level setting a little at a time until you find the balance between noise and detail that you can accept.

Hmmm. I wouldn't recommend the white and black limiters as a global setting. They are better set on a per shot basis when halos in a particular instance become troublesome.

The settings I listed were as an example, not a suggestion.

Hamlet are one of the best makes of scopes. Though their replies to emails can be sporadic to say the least! They actually do a very good real time PC based scope as well which is better than anything in DV Rack etc. It is probably best to phone them as when I have had correspondence (admittedly a while ago now) they were extremely helpful.

These settings do not open wormholes or cause tears in the universe. To advance the art, you have to be willing to try things.

There is a full explanation of the relationship between Detail and Crispening here:

http://www.sony.co.uk/res/attachment...6605183226.pdf

I normally run detail at -10 or -15 with frequency at +40 and crispening at -10. If shooting in low light I have detail at -25 and crispening at +40 which helps reduce overall noise when using gain.

What about frequency in low light ?

Thanks.
Paul.

This is rather unscientific given the issues with Quicktime and gamma etc, but I needed to go out to look for places to shoot for a project I am working on and took the camera with me. So here is something straight out of the camera for what it is worth and compressed for the web with the picture profile from the Sony website shown on the first post in this thread. I used Cine 4.

http://www.simonwyndham.co.uk/severn-sunset.html

Thanks Simon.
Thanks for reminding me I live in a bland, lifeless desert ;)

That was very nice.

New data on Polarizer color shift
 

Doug Jensen, of Vortex Media ("Mastering the PMW-EX1" & "Mastering the PMW-EX3") recently sent the following to me via email (and to Avery at Schneider Optics) regarding his findings. I thought it imperative I share with the forum, if only to help some folks avoid the same frustrations:

----------------------------------------------------------------------

I came across both of the threads about color-shifts while using polarizers with the EX1 and EX3 and I thought I'd let you know what I found out after some testing.
I hope you don't mind me contacting you directly.

I have experienced the color shifting phenomena myself so I decided it was time to get it fixed. I have two 4x4 Schneider True-Pol filters and they are NOT the same. My testing shows that you DO need a circular polarizer with the EX1 and EX3.

Filter #1 was purchased in 2001and the printing on the glass says "Schneider B+W True-Pol"
Filter #2 was purchased last week from B&H and the printing on the glass says "Schneider THIS SIDE OUT Circular True-Pol"


Filter #1 causes a serious color-shift when rotated no matter which direction it is facing in the matte box.
Filter #2 does not cause a color shift as long as the glass is facing the proper direction. If the filter is mounted in the wrong direction then there is some color shifting, but not as severe as with Filter #1.

I tested both filters with my EX1 and my EX3 and as far as I can tell there is no difference at all between the two models of cameras. In other words, just as I knew they would, the EX1 and the EX3 react to the same way to both filters.

So, my recommendation to anyone looking to buy a polarizer to use with the EX1 or EX3 is that you must get a Circular Polarizer. Yes, there is a difference and it is plainly visible right on the camera's LCD -- no scopes are necessary.

I hope that helps shed some light on the debate and I only wish I had discovered this information in time to include on my DVDs. Damn!!
Feel free to pass along my testing on DVi if you would like to.

just finished to shoot commercial with the ex-3

i used the camera with canon 4.7 2/3 HD LENS

i used philip bloom set-up

with the add of
detail level________ -15
frequency_________ 20

it was beautiful

Here are print outs of my HVX200/HPX170 settings. All the other settings are set to default. I noted that the detail adjustment is subjective because I just eyeballed the difference. The EX1 is notably sharper even at the lowest level. My Black Gamma levels are set very low in order to mimic the fall off of the HVXs Gamma curve. Do note that the Black setting has very minimal adjustment.

HVX Matches for EX1

PP1: Cine V
Matrix –
- Select: High Sat
- Level 0
- Phase +2
- R-G -11
- R-B -23
- G-R +38
- G-B 0
- B-R +17
- B-G -23
Detail –
- Level –30 (subjective)
- Frequency 15

Gamma –
- Level -1
- Select: Cine 1

Black – -2
Black Gamma - -99

PP2: Cine D
Matrix –
- Select: High Sat
- Level 0
- Phase +6
- R-G +22
- R-B -36
- G-R +19
- G-B 0
- B-R +14
- B-G -16
Detail –
- Level –30 (subjective)
- Frequency 15

Gamma –
- Level -1
- Select: Cine 1

Black – -2
Black Gamma - -96

PP3: HD NORM
Matrix –
- Select: Standard
- Level -5
- Phase +1
- R-G +8
- R-B -30
- G-R +15
- G-B -24
- B-R 0
- B-G +10
Detail –
- Level –30 (subjective)
- Frequency 15

Gamma –
- Level +11
- Select: STD4

Black – -1
Black Gamma - -52

PP4: FLUO
Matrix –
- Select: FL Light
- Level -8
- Phase -5
- R-G -64
- R-B -24
- G-R +64
- G-B -18
- B-R +24
- B-G -23
Detail –
- Level –30 (subjective)
- Frequency 15

Gamma –
- Level +11
- Select: STD4

Black – -1
Black Gamma - -52

Wow Andy! You've been working hard on this. If I have some time today, I'm going to try your settings. Thanks for doing the work! :)

Hey Andy,
Cheers for taking the time!
Mick

Hey Andy,

Can you make an attempt at a description for CineV, CineD, HD Norm and FLUO. I'm guessing that FLUO is for shooting under fluorescent lights.

Thanks Andy I've been hoping someone would.. You're a star!

Pp!
 

this
progresite
is an example of Jim's PP1 from posting #11.
very demanding ligth conditions & very good results IMO ( unfortunately this flv file cannot justify ..)

Desert Action
 

Heading out to the Arizona desert to shoot some action sports next week, cycling in specific. A lone rider, lots of sun, lots of POV and terrain.

I am looking for edgy and cool PP recipes to try out - hoping to have several to try; will post the footage afterward :)

thanks in advance

greg kiger
st louis

EX1 and spf 30 sunscreen

Blind leading blind
 

For other newbies out there like myself asking the basic question "what are some good PPs I can go try?" an answer would be to read this whole thread and take lots of notes - I finally did and it's very informative. But if, unlike me you actually have a life and can't spare the time, here at least is a start...

Check out post #120 on page 8 and download Bill Ravens recipes. Move them onto your sxs card (after renaming Bills file as he outlines) and import them onto your EX1 per the manual (page79 Retrieving the set Up File).

Then check out post #262 for the key details on how to use them. Oh yes, and remember to white balance and always wear clean underwear :)

Many thanks to Mr Raven and others for all the great insights!

greg kiger
st louis
pro photog / new to video
Greg Kiger Photography

Stupid question???
 

when using a picture profile... should a white balance be done before the profile is selected or after? could whoever responds to this one explain why?

My brain is moving extra slow today.

Greg

ALWAYS do a white balance first, before shooting, that is. Without doing that, any profile you select will be skewed. It does NOT MATTER whether you do a white balance before or after loading a profile.

Think of it as a signal path.

Light goes into lens > white balance effects look of picture > PP effects look of picture

You use your white balance as a "base line" or reference for "correct" color. Then the PP tweeks it.

I'm GREATLY over simplifying it, but that helps me get a handle on how white balance and PP interact.


So to take this discussion a step further.....

You could probably white balance on a white card, then use PP to make your picture look like you white balanced on a Warm Card. Right? :)

Anyone know what the actual settings are on post 120? My pc can't open the file.

So to take this discussion a step further.....

You could probably white balance on a white card, then use PP to make your picture look like you white balanced on a Warm Card. Right? :)[/QUOTE]

Wow - now you really open a can of worms... but its basically true what you say, however I would choose PP settings for different situations and then use a whitebalance on a card or preset which gives you the shift to warm or cold you desire. Warm and cold cards are on the market but you can make them yourself. I have a plain white card taped into the inside of my lens cover... so I always have it with me.

I often shoot theater and dance and always balance to daylight preset in this situation but use a very flat contrast PP to get the most detail in the blacks and highlights. then I make the desired look in post. for outside shoots I prefer a pp that is a bit more snappy in the contrast and colors, but always whitebalance, not like in a theater.

I had a shoot yesterday that I thought would take an hour, but when I arrived I found out they had under-scheduled the amount of time it would take to capture everything they wanted. The point is....I was RUNNING.

Anyway, I wanted to share that I shot the whole thing using the following technique:

1) I'd open up my PP (I'm still using Doug's setting from the Vortex Media DVD) and simply dial in the color temperature in the white balance setting:

a) 3200 for shooting under our tungsten studio lights
b) 5600 for shooting outdoors
c) 4100 for shooting under fluorescent lights

You could change the color temp number and watch the color of the scene change in the viewfinder. I never white balanced once and everything looks pretty darn good considering the amount of time I had.

Obviously this wouldn't be the ideal way to work if you were shooting some critical shots where you had plenty of time to set up, but I thought I'd share anyway. :)

A little help...
 

Could someone please refer me to a simple explanation of the colour matrices?

I thought I understood the concept, because I used them successfully in post, however messing around in post is different from finalising an image in camera.

r-g
r-b
g-r
g-b
b-g
b-r

An explanation on what these mean exactly and how having multiple settings changed produce contrasting colours would be very helpful.

I would much rather go "that green needs to be warmer" and change the right setting, than trying to guess.

Any articles or forum posts will help me so much.

Any help would be greatly appreciated? I essentially need to know if RG means more red than green or more green than red in a more detailed explanation.

Check post #393 in this thread. I don't know if that's what you are looking for, but it was the best answer to the (same?) question I had.

Pete

Here's the link: http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/980866-post393.html

It all make sense now, thanks for finding the link

"R, G and B are the respective signals before passing through the linear matrix circuit and R′, G′ and B′ are the respective signals after passing through the linear matrix circuit.

α, β, γ, δ, ε and ζ are the matrix coefficients defined as:

α(Greek letter alpha)=−0.59a−0.59b

β(Greek letter beta)=−0.11a+0.89b

γ(Greek letter gamma)=−0.3a+0.2831b

δ(Greek letter delta)=−0.11a−0.4731b

ε(Greek letter epsilon)=−0.3a−0.7b

ζ(Greek letter zeta)=−0.59a+0.59b"


Now where did you say the power On button was?