Red problem !
 

I'm having some weird problems with the EX1. I have to shoot in a room where the walls are a deep dark red. It's a pretty low key shot so there's lots of shadows. Then something weird happens. One of the actresses is blonde and her hair is looking deep red, almost a wine color in the camera. If the whole room is bright it looks almost normal, but at lower light levels she looks like a red head out of a L'oreal commercial! Other actors with black or brown hair look normal. I tried everything apart from playing with the color matrix. Any ideas of how to correct for that? Thanks.

I have some problem with colours, but not only red, black is btw. brown etc. WB is right.

I try every profiles posted here, Winnie, Bill (TC1, TC2)... etc. but dont help for best result. Still some colour is miss, specialy black is not black. And for second, WB in EX1 isnt so good, becous is horrible slow to finding right White Balance. I try change speed, but still slow or maybe dont change nothing automaticaly, must do WB manual for right temperature. I never have problem like this, my small HDV Sony HC3 produce outstanding color, and never problem with slow WB and of course my older PD170 some never has problems like this.

I dont understand why EX1 has problem with colour and slow WB. I only waiting for new firmware if helps or make call to my dealer, but i think he cant help me about this, all EX1 has similar problem.

That is interesting what you say about the black colors. I find this to be true on the EX-1 and I have noticed it on other cameras that certain fabrics (like black fleece) will appear reddish on the camera. It must have to do with the reflectivity of those fabrics. A black cotton t-shirt will look black. Black shadows will be black, but fleece type fabrics look red. More of an interesting point then a problem, because I have definitely seen it on other cams so it must be some light emission thing.

Is it possible for you to post a still? It could be a software problem in the camera, where the color matrix is picking up on the small amount of the darker red being reflected into her hair from the walls. This would explain why other actors are unaffected, and why it looks almost normal at higher exposures. The F23 had a problem early on where the processing was misinterpreting a specific shade of blue-gray.

-Sean

My still
first is from HC3, colour OK, WB OK
second starts from EX1, pp off, bag has two colour
third, pp on, TC1 profile from Bill (Thank you Bill), black on bag is i dont know why in two colour too..
I have some problem with TC2 profile from Bill.

PD170 dont see two colour on this bag too, my eyes see some as HC3 and PD170 :D

it is a well known problem from photographer since a long time.
It is called infrared contamination
you can use an hot mirror to get rid of the infrared
http://www.tiffen.com/results.html?s...ormat=Screw-In
they are usually pretty expensive while a simple glass can do the job as well.

http://lloydchambers.com/diglloyd/fr...amination.html

http://joi.ito.com/archives/2007/04/...ckr_group.html

Try a IR Block or Cut Filter
 

I have a 77mm B+W 486 IR Cut (blocking) filter, I can't remember who else makes them (at the time I was looking for this solution, all I could find in the States, was this filter by B+W, which I got from B&H)

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produc...tal_UV_IR.html

I'm wondering if this is how this particular sensor reacts to differing wavelengths. As I did not encounter this with my Canon XHA1 or older Sony DV camcorders.

Outdoor use in San Diego, I can't see much noticeable difference. Outdoor use when I was up north closer to the Arctic in Canada, I really could see a difference, especially in Reds, Greens and Blacks. I manually white balanced and included a white/gray reference in the beginning of each shot, so I know the balance was correct. I also noticed a difference in this situation with my Canon HV20 as well as the PMW-EX1.

Then indoors under various types of indoor lighting I started noticing this effect as well by using and not using the filter, which varied under different types of lighting. Again this effect is stronger than with the Canon XHAI in the same setup.

I stumbled on a few German sites that discussed this type of filter and there were actually stronger ones mentioned, that I have been unable to find here, one was darker in color and reduced light by about 2-stops.

Maybe one of our more tech savvy engineer memebers can shed some more light on this. But this filter does help a lot with this camera's sensor, I'd still like to find even a stronger one. Of course I haven't shot in a red room or set yet.

I have the same problem. A black skirt was looking brown.... in the same picture a black tire of a car was still black. Also we did some still pictures with a Eos5d and the skirt and the tires were shown in correct (black) color! Maybe it's possible that this happen more with clothes than with other things. Really strange.

I have to drive now to a shooting we will do tomorrow and I'm thinking about to use my old PD170 (black is allways black!) and not the new Ex1 for this, because I'm affraid to have wrong colors on the picture.

Leica has experienced a similar issue with purple contamination of the black pretty well documented around the web. They fixed after a while a very vocal outcry from photographers.
This is just one of the articles published:
http://www.outbackphoto.com/reviews/...asHoepker.html

take care when you go in the shop to buy the filter.
if you ask for an IR filter, they could give you a filter that let pass only IR.
That is the reversal of what you need. You need a hot mirror that blocks the IR. this is pretty confusing, since in photography, an UV filter blocks the UV and an IR filter allows to take pictures with IR.
An hot mirror filter that rejects IR must be totally transparent. if it is more or less dark it is cold mirror that reject visible light and let pass IR.

Has sony reason why not install IR Cut-Off/HOT MIRROR filter into EX1 like in other products?

If i read correctly all colour problem is EX1 dont have this filter like other camcorders.

All this makes me want to experiment with an IR pass filter to see if the EX1 does interesting thing with IR photography.

EVERY camera is made with an IR low pass filter installed. You wouldn't have an image (at least a worthwhile one) without it. The issue of IR contamination seems to be happening however with every CMOS camera I've tested, particularly the RED ONE. This is an issue mostly when shooting with high levels of ND (1.5-1.8 or so) which block visible light, but not IR, so it shifts the ratio of visible-IR and allows you to see it. Zenes, what kind of light source were these taken under? I'm not totally convinced this is IR contamination, since IR usually makes a bluish-magenta haze over dark subjects, not the green-magenta split tone you've illustrated here.

-Sean

it is possible that we got a mixed effect between the IR contamination and the electronic trying to keep balance with the WB.
that would explain that by trying to fight the purple/magenta , the camera goes to the green side.
A simple test with a hot mirror would give the answer, or taking the same picture with an halogen 3200 (plenty of IR) or an HMI 5000K.
Anyway that strange that such problem still occurs on new model, since it is known for a long time in photography. Or engineers for sensor in video are not the same as in photography ?

Hi Sean,

every CMOS camera dont has problem like EX1, HC3 has CMOS too, but dont see any problem like in EX. I think yes, all cameras has IR cut off implemented, but something dont good and i dont know if this corrected in new firmware or must buy hot mirror filter but is expensive and hard to find shop to have this for test in shop.

Hmmm.

I'm not having this problem. I also certianly don't rely on pushing a button and hoping white balance is perfect every time.
My HD100 always auto balanced on the cool side.

Did you try a manual white balance adjustment?

Also, although Bill did a great job at optimizing his camera with his TC presets, it's possible there are slight differences in our camera's color balance.

And what CA reducing in EX, dont do this colour problem? Maybe sony can do soft on/off for this function.

I do some another light test, used camlight SONY HVL-20DW2 and Fluorescent light.
Cam light produce light like tungsten light so many many places in lowlight has this light. For test if WB is ok i put white paper.

I posted some another still from EX1 and from HC3, becouse HC3 has CMOS too, but i dont see any problem with black like from EX1 so cmos isnt reason why do that.

Result for me is, EX1 has maybe IR contamination in tungsten light and i dont know if HOT MIRROR filter help or help minimal or change another colour. I read about IR contamination and find informaton this is not reduce by any color profile, this is HW problem, so i dont think so if FW correct this.
All this is for me not acceptable and i contact my dealer about refund, becouse this is not feature is issue :(

Just to explain the problem better. My Ex1 has this problem (sometimes) at indoor shootings (no sun light) with my 3x650W Sachtler light-kit and also Outdoor (a very bright day in the mountains, lot of snow).

So maybe too much light cause this problem? I’m confused about that, because some other black areas in the picture are still black. Others are completely brown. This happened in full automatic, automatic white balance, or all setting manual. But it never happend when I filmed something like a black car or similar. So it's really possible that textile of clothes cause this problems. Also I have seen this when there was a black piece of foam in the picture.

So sometimes the Ex1 performs like a dream but this is not possible at all situations. I need a cam with a repeatable picture look and not one day it shows brown, the next day black. Hope the problem can be fixed with a firmware update.

Black fabric/textile not being really black (brownish tint) was the first thing I noticed in my EX1 picture. With similar lighting conditions, deep navy blue looks more like magenta, etc...

The first explanation that crossed my mind was "hey, they have put so many picture tweaking controls in this cam, their default colour matrix is just not properly adjusted).

Hi Piotr,

if its realy IR contamination, this cant be adjusted with any colour profile. I try many profiles, but in tungsten light Black fabric/textile not being really black only on EX1, all another cams i tryed dont has this issue.

Absolutely, Zenes - I'm not saying it can be adjusted. I've given up trying:-)

Yes i tested too, only one help to get realy black, white AWB shift -15, black is black, but other colour is realy out :-)

I do only little funny for this horrible situation, sorry

I am coming back with some links about a similar issue experienced by CMOS based Leica M8 digital stills camera:

http://www.outbackphoto.com/reviews/...M8_review.html
http://www.luminous-landscape.com/re...-magenta.shtml

Re-profling the cameras (during the RAW > RGB conversion) can correct part of the problem, but it will not go away.

Leica has offered a special screw-on type UV/IR filter to cut the excessive IR.

I'm thinking more and more that this is an A/D glitch. The F23 had a similar issue with one specific tone. If this were an IR issue that was bad enough to affect subjects indoors, we'd probably see it elsewhere. I'm still waiting for mine to arrive so I can't test this, but if you set the ND filter to 1/64 (ideally add some glass ND in front as well), and photograph a black subject outside on a sunny day you should see IR contamination.

Here's a REDUser thread about this issue:
http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=9412

-Sean

Look at this guys shirt,when i was filming i noticed the colour of it on the camera's lcd was showing as red but to my eye at the time it was definatley black. Now i realise there is a red light shining on him from the left of the shot,as you can see on the backdrop, but why didn't his jeans show up as red ?

Was it possibly a reflective material? It definitely is picking up the red light more than other black subjects in the frame (the neck of the guitar, etc.) and I think this is the same processing issue. The red light is enough to get the black shirt to a point where the processing gets fooled by it. The other example we've seen so far has been indoors under tungsten light, which could easily result in the same tone (the bag is a semi-reflective nylon). I'd be interested to see if this happens in daylight (maybe the opposite, a bluish tone) or if this only happens with warm lighting on black subjects. As I said before, this happened with the F23 when it first came out, and eventually was fixed once Sony admitted it was a processing issue.

-Sean

Nope,the shirt wasn't reflective.
I remember thinking to myself "what going on here then",i was looking at the lcd,then the subject,then the lcd,then the subject,his shirt was definately black,same as his jeans.
It never happened to any other subject,must've been around 20 i filmed that weekend,so it must've been a combination of that shirt/material and the cam,like i said,my eyes were seeing black.
I forgot all about it until i saw this thread.

Paul.

This is first what i see from EX1, this is my bad :(

Just noticed the same thing while editing a recent shoot....two people with black jackets on, but one of them looked brown to the camera. I think different materials have different IR reflectivity. From my other camera (CANON XH-A1) both jackets looked black.

Anyway, has anyone called SONY about this problem?
Is this something that SONY can fix via firmware update?
Will an IR filter fix the problem?
Will an IR filter cause any other problems?

Here is a IR filter at B&H:http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/cont...=235343&is=REG

Can I just put this filter on the EX1 all the time, or should it just be used when the issue presents itself?

Sean,
Yes it happens also in daylight. But when I have seen this on the LCD I thought I did something wrong with the white balance or similar.

I never thought about the idea that Sony will release a camcorder with such a wrong color managment, especially because it looks like not a new problem for them. To test something like this BEFORE they release a camcorder is what they have to do. I can not explain my customers that my "high-end Cine Alta" camcorder can't show correct colors... every 300$ cam you can buy can do it better!

Paul, you said that you experienced this with only one subject reading incorrectly? That's starting to sound like an IR problem. Zenes, as I'm looking at your latest round of stills it seems that it is actually not just the bag, it's also the stitching that secures the strap. Another good indication of an IR problem, since the black pigments and dyes used in textiles reflect different amounts of IR light. I hope Sony is listening.

-Sean

Wow, I had no idea this was such a big problem.
Well, will the IR reflecting filter work for sure? Is the Tiffen the only option?
If it will work I will buy one for sure. This is unacceptable. A camera that can't see color properly is as useful as a record player that only plays cassettes.

Michael, I feel like you are experiencing a different problem. Is it possible for you to post a still of your problem with the actress' hair? If it is a similar color shift we are seeing here in Zenes' examples that's a good indication that little of this is IR related, but unfortunately I'm starting to doubt that's the case.

-Sean

Hi,

It seems to be the same thing. Somebody from the crew had a black cotton sweater and it showed reddish like the camera bag Zene posted. It seems to be the same thing. You think the hot mirror filter will work? Thanks.

In that case I think it will. We should start making some noise to get sony to notice this as well. It's one thing if this happens with a lot of ND in front, but under normal conditions...

-Sean

I didn't have any filter on.

Paul.

Polas and IR?
 

How do Polarizers work with IR - do they reflect when they are on?
I assume that when they are on, they also like NDs too.

Also would a CTB - daylight blue filter - help cut down on IR. One could color correct for in post?

Or... MAYBE, this is why the Sony does NOT have the 5600.. switch!

Would it be better to shoot exterior sunsets, to the blue, to reflect more IR (possibly?!) and then color correct in post??

Greg, polarizer and ND dont cut IR, this filters works only in visible light area. IR contamination can not perfect cut in post or is imposible in post. Maybe IR cut-off/Hot mirror help (if dont change other colours or something else, i read something about hot mirror dont work on wide lens ) or SONY do change in firmware if has error doing this issue.

If I remember my induction correctly, there was a sage engineer at the BBC who patiently demonstrated why the BBC didn't think the PD150 was Broadcast Quality - he used the remote (an Infra Red remote) and pointed it through the lens.

You could see the IR LED in the viewfinder.

The engineer said that this was a bad thing, but did not elucidate further. This thread has illuminated the drawbacks to Infra Red sensitivity in an ample manner.

Maybe the Z1 design team learned this lesson, but the guys from the Cine Alta Dojo didn't think it would matter (along with the grip offset and the button placement).

Time to order a hot mirror...