But a shoulder mount camera is difficult to use any way other than shoulder mounted or tripod mounted because of the length.

What I really don't understand about the base is why the 1/4" thread at the rear is off center. It would be so much more useful if it was inline with the others.

What the design does do is leave the door wide open for 3rd party adapters.

The camera doesn't really need to be longer, just a viewing system at the front so that the face is approx level with the front of the camera. The Aaton 16mm camera's V/F more or less gives this, as does the JVC GY HD100 or 200.

The JVC cameras can be used in loads of hand held positions using the side LCD rather than the V/F.

Actually, the guts of the F3 in a PMW-500 body would make a perfect and well balanced shoulder Super 35 camera. With it's dual channel wireless slot, V-mount battery and nice side mounted viewfinder options, it would make for a far less bulky camera than a fully rigged F3.

Thierry

Obviously there will be a need for either a Sony or third party standard viewfinder--the flip-out screen is not an ideal setup for serious production work. Being able to put your eye up to a finder in daylight is much preferred to the washed-out image from a flip-out.

True enough about the F35 not being ideal for handheld either--without the deck on the back it's punishingly front-heavy. It took me hours of prep to configure this beast:

http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/hd-uhd-2...xperience.html

F3 viewfinder ... adequate?
 

Hello,
I've been following the various posts regarding the soon to be available F3 and one question lingers in my mind, relating specifically to the attached VF. Therefore, for those of you who have had an up-close and personal encounter with the F3, is the attached VF adequate for accurate focus? I'd hate to disturb what already appears to be an awkward, handhold-able device with the added weight and bulk of an onboard monitor (i.e. Marshall).
Thank you in advance.

Ron,

The F3 viewfinder is adequate to check focus especially if you are using the peaking function. It is no that good for checking color and for this, the built-in LCD is very good. My understanding is that the F3 viewfinder is identical to the EX1R (not EX1...) and during the bit of hands on I have had with the F3, the viewfinder felts indeed like the EX1R's.

Thierry.

With the lenses that will be used with this, even the EX3 form factor wouldn't be useful. Full shoulder is the only way to use the F3 hand held in any reasonable way. But as you pointed out it would make using it for anything else more difficult. Plus it would have probably made it even more expensive.

I guess that is why Sony just decided to make it like the baddest Handycam ever made. Makes it small enough to fit in tight places or carry around easily, and after you rig it all up you can make your own shoulder mount.

I do still wish they had made that rear Viewfinder removable! That way I could have chucked it in a box (without voiding my warranty) and forgotten it was ever there to begin with.

[QUOTE=Erik Phairas;1602907 Full shoulder is the only way to use the F3 hand held in any reasonable way. [/QUOTE]
I don't agree, I found it very easy to hold using the top handle for low shots and handycam style for many other shots. If you use the Sony lightweight PL's or a DSLR lens the weight is not a problem.

It isn't great though, nowhere near as good as the EX3 IMO. I would rather Sony had ditched it and focused on something higher end in a better position, even if it was an paid for option.

I've never really found shoulder mount designs to be awkward when shooting from the hip or holding the top handle. It is very rare that I shoot like that anyway. I certainly think a shoulder mount design is better for 95% of shooting and hate having to make any adaptations between tripod and handheld. The only time I prefer handycams is for discrete shooting where you are trying to look amateur.

With all the amazing advances in recent years, ergonomics seem to have been forgotten. The Aaton LTR/XTR S16 cameras hardly ever need anything bolted to them, they just work properly as designed. The latest handycams seem to have outgrown the limits of their PD150 ancestors and the manufactures haven't noticed or bothered to go back to the drawing board.

Although I find the F3's viewfinder quality to be adequate, I'd have gladly paid a couple thousand more dollars for the F3 just to have a connector that would allow me to mount the C35W viewfinder from my F800. What a terrific camera that would be!!

Mike, I'm sure we'll see several 3rd party viewfinder solutions that will basically transform the F3's flip-out LCD into an EX3-style viewfinder. I will be first in line to buy one. I already tried the Hoodman Loupe that I use on my EX1 but it's too short to accomodate a comfortable shooting position. We need something with a rigid extension tube that is several inches long -- just like the EX3 viewfinder.

I'll agree with all that 100% - with the exception of JVC. In pure ergonomic terms, their recent offerings have shown you can have a camera of this size/weight which can be comfortably used on the shouder without compromising use in other ways.
Maybe, but the real problem is that the viewfinder needs to be much further forward. Then it becomes possible to have more of the weight of the camera further back and out of the way beside the head. It's not just a weight and balance issue - in confined spaces, having to have the entire length of the camera in front of the cameraman would become a real pain, which no amount of third party solutions will be able to solve.

You can still shoot this way with a JVC. Quite a few people will be using the camera with much heaver lenses like the Cookes and Master Primes.

Thank you and all others for their helpful replies.

I disagree. There will be 3rd party solutions that will work.
I think you are misunderstanding what I'm saying. I'm NOT talking about using the viewfinder that is at the rear of the camera. I'm talking about adding a 3rd party device to the flip-out LCD so that it functions like the viewfinder on an EX3. That LCD is already forward on the camera, and the addition of an optical tube-style viewfinder to the LCD should put it pretty close to the right position with the addition of a short shoulder brace or shoulder rest. Same as the EX3. The F3 should have been designed like the EX3 and I wouldn't be surprised if that body style was just around the corner. Just look at the history of the EX1 and then the EX3. There's going to be a lot of pissed off F3 owners if Sony announces another camera soon after the buy their F3. But it should come as no surprise and I'll have no sympathy when they start crabbing that they bought the wrong camera. There's always going to be something new around the corner.

To work well, the display device needs to be further forward than the LCD on the side if the camera. I don't think it's a huge mechanical deal designing a mounting system that say also allows 15mm rods & handle below the camera and a V/F (or LCD) forward of the camera body, This would allow the camera to sit on your shoulder.

No, that is what I understood. Just don't think it's still far enough forward. Fully agree when you say "should have been designed like the EX3".

Doug are you familiar with the Hoodman Loupe for the EX1? Should work out of the box on the F3. I am sure Olof will develop a rig and one can always slap on a set of rails with a shoulder pad and hang a batt or two over the shoulder. That's what I would do if I was going to be handbombing a fair amount but I expect it will be living either on a tripod or a Steadicam in my case.

I have given up trying to figure out Sony on their industrial design and marketing ploys. Sometimes, most times, things just don't add up except for the rather broad strokes in which they decide where to place their cameras on their product shelf. I think they, for the most part get that right. But really, the viewfinder issue... WHY?! They produced the EX1, then came out with the EX3 to great acclaim. The most talked about (positive) thing on the EX3 was how good the viewfinder was and then they come out with the F3 which was greeted with a huge pile on from almost every shooter that looked at the promo shots when it was first announced. Do they not do focus group testing on their gear as it is being developed?

I still think it is a nice camera but I would either use a Hoodman Loupe or a Marshall

Well you've held it, I haven't, so let's compromise - let me borrow yours. :)

I use the EX-1 with a hoodman and its a reasonably good solution though not always as solid as I would like. However I dislike the EX-3 because although the basic optical viewfinder works quite well , they changed the way the color peaking circuit works and it is far less accurate than it is on the EX-1. I rely on it on the EX-1 but on the EX-3 its nearly useless as its too gross an adjustment. That's a big deal to me.

Not only am I familiar with it, I mentioned in Post #51 above that I own one and that it does NOT work. It is too short for the F3.

Doug,

Not having seen an F3 yet I'm, having trouble understanding what you mean by the hoodman being "too short" for the F3.
Is it too short to use in a comfortable way with some kind of shoulder brace, or does the camera bang into your shoulder when you try to put your head to the eyepeice?

Or is it a different issue entirely that the hoodman doesn't cover the full screen of the F3 because its perhaps larger than the EX-1 screen?

Do you have any doubt that it would be easy for hoodman to come up with a solutiion?

Lenny Levy

Leonard,


It's been about six weeks since I tried my Hoodman Loupe on an F3, so it is difficult to remember the all the reasons why it didn't work, but the main problem is that the LCD on the F3 sits too low. Compare the design of the F3 to the EX1. Where is the LCD located? Notice that the LCD on an EX1 sits relatively high up on the camera, thus making it easy to rest the camera on your shoulder and still have the LCD/Loupe postioned right in front of your eye.

On the F3, the LCD is positioned much lower on the body. So if you put your eye up against the LCD/Loupe then you've got several inches of empty space between the bottom of the camera and your shoulder. Or, if you rest the camera on your shoulder, then it is almost impossible to look through the Loupe. I suppose you could add a several-inches thick shoulder pad to the F3 to raise it up higher, but then you will have raised the center of gravity too high and the camera would be very awkward to operate. Also, since the LCD doesn't extend very far from the camera body, you really have to crunch your head up agains the side of the camera to even see through the Loupe. Bottom line is that it's not something I would ever want to use.

To answer your other two questions:

Yes, the Hoodman Loupe does cover the LCD because it's the same LCD as on the EX1/EX1R.

Yes, I'm certain Hoodman, Zacuto, RedRock, and others will have many accessories that solve most of the F3's shortcomings.

F3/EX3 viewfinder ...
 

Was thinking of taking my EX3 viewfinder down to a shop with the F3 on display and see how that worked.
Perhaps, tomorrow would be a good day for that.

Cineroid | Hot Rod Cameras

At least for framing, this seems like a good investment. You can position it anywhere you like with a Noga arm. Not the Highest resolution monitor ever made, but its an eye piece, and can go where ever you need to balance the camera.