Re: New Sony PXW-FS5
 

Jack, if your clients demand 4k-60p but aren't willing to pay you enough to get a camera that can do it, you don't have a camera problem... You have a client problem.

Re: New Sony PXW-FS5
 

the stock lens thst comes in the kit,is the fo us ring 8n finite like the x70 or where u can focus fast like the one on the ex1r,?
This is my main complaint with the x70 coming from the ex1r.
I can focus fast without having the keep turning the focus ring to get it in focus

Re: New Sony PXW-FS5
 

Jim the quickest way of focusing any of the small Sony's like the X70 is to use touch focus. I never use the focus control on my NX30U, CX700 or the AX100 only touch focus. Something I wish was on my NX5U and is on the new Panasonic DVX200. It is something that is implemented on the EA50 too.

Ron Evans

Re: New Sony PXW-FS5
 

What am I supposed to say? Stop asking for 60p and get out?

My upgrade path was going to be the PXW-X200, but with the numerous hardware limitations of that camera and the numerous lens issues, I have to leapfrog 1080p60 and go to 4K 60p.

The tech just isn't there, but for this, the tech is there, just they chose to artificially limit certain things so that it's just bad enough to sneak in a new model in 6 months. (cause you know that's what they're going to do)

Sorry, the "30p is fine" argument is one that really pisses me off, both in video gaming and video production.

Re: New Sony PXW-FS5
 

Jack why is it the PXW-FS7 wouldn't work for you?

Re: New Sony PXW-FS5
 

I am sure they have UHS-11 U3 support because that is what I use in my AX100 !! I am sure both the X70 and FS5 support these cards or they have a whole bunch of Sony consumer products with superior card support. Since the X70 has a lot of the FDR-AX100 in it I am sure the card support is the same. They just do not want to support 50/60P or in the case of the X70 even 100Mbps 30P that the AX100 already does. All my cameras are Sony but they do annoy frequently with their strange marketing of features. I think I paid about $200 for a 64G XQD N series card for my FDR-AX1 when I got it 2 years ago and last week bought a Lexar 128G UHS-11 U3 card for $110. XQD makes sense recording 600Mbps XAVC but for 150Mbps LongGOP QFHD it is overkill or too expensive.

Ron Evans

Re: New Sony PXW-FS5
 

I'm looking for something the same price as a X200, with a 1'' sensor and fixed lens, 4K, and 60 frames in 4K. I don't need Super35, but if you are going to offer it anyways, at least give it the lowest 150mbps 60fps option. But knowing Sony, they don't want to cannibalize XQD sales.

The FS7 is dated, it likely has setbacks in it's HDMI output. It may be HDMI 2.0, but what's the pixel format it's pushing out? The DVX200 tricked us with 8-bit only output out the HDMI 2.0 in 4K 60p. Even though it's 4:2:2, some hardware restriction only allows 10-bit at the slower frame rates. My bet is on power, that it's still using 7.4V batteries.

I hate to see new cameras purposely take a step back when everything else has nothing wrong with it. The design of the FS5 is a godsend, but the limitations are just enough that when the new stopgap model comes out, you'll regret making your current purchase.

Re: New Sony PXW-FS5
 

I understand what you need and your next best bet will be CES 2016 or NAB 2016. The fixed lens eng cams are due for replacement. AX1/Z100 Canon XF300. Hopefully they go 1" route. The FS7 is no where near dated though. You lost me there. HD-SDI 10 -bit out.

Re: New Sony PXW-FS5
 

Yes, in HD.

The HDMI 2.0 port in an ideal world should be 10-bit as well, but if it's something weird like 8-bit in 4K 60p, it's not worth having an output mode inferior to the internal recording.

Like I said, bleeding edge = dated practices of weird limitations.

You could do worse, the FDR-AX1 and PXW-Z100 both output 8bit 4:2:0 out the HDMI for it's "HDMI 2.0" 4K 60p output.

Re: New Sony PXW-FS5
 

Why is it HD-SDI is not good enough though? It's 10-bit in all modes and most all recorders can accept that output. The Gh4 is the only camera I know of with 10-bit HDMI.

Re: New Sony PXW-FS5
 

Cause it can't do 4K.

SMPTE has not standardized a 6G or 12G SDI standard so the SDI outputs without the extension unit on the FS7 are all HD 3G.

The only 6G or 12G standard out there of current is proprietary to Blackmagic Design, which means when the official SMPTE one is drafted, it will not be cross compatible and there will be fragmentation. All the camera manufacturers are playing it safe, sticking to current SMPTE standards. That's 3G-SDI ONLY.

HDMI though has evolved to carry 4K. This is why the 7Q+ and the A7s work so well, cause that sure as hell has no SDI port.

Re: New Sony PXW-FS5
 

Then sorry man. Enjoy the wait. The FS5/7 weren't made for you.

Re: New Sony PXW-FS5
 

Ron I'm aware of those focus methods,just need to know if the focus ring on this camera is infinite like the x70 or like the ex1r where u can focus fast on the ring.
I'll try calling Sony tomorrow
Thx

Re: New Sony PXW-FS5
 

What you say to your clients is of course up to you.
If I had clients that demanded 4k60p (which I certainly
do not) I would be looking at buying a FS7. Or
alternatively, an Odyssey 7q to go with my FS700.
If you are saying they demand 4k60p but won't pay rates
which would allow you to buy a FS7 then I'd tend to agree...
that is a client problem.

Re: New Sony PXW-FS5
 

The ring on the 'kit' lens that comes with the FS5
is infinite/free spinning. It is also 'focus by wire' which
pretty much sucks. That is the main drawback of that
lens.

Re: New Sony PXW-FS5
 

I hear you Jack - but at the rate Sony spits out new cameras that will always be the case. Meanwhile, I would love to shoot with the capabilities this FS5 offers now, in addition to the PMW-300 and C100 I already use - even if the FS5's features are not perfect for everyone they fit my specific needs right now.

Here's why I've pre-ordered one (lifted from my website).

I've been sitting on the fence about a new cam for nearly a year now and have been thinking hard about buying a C300 MkII all summer. But in the end it’s just too damn expensive an ecosystem for a 4K camera that still has some (in my view) serious limitations, especially concerning high frame rate options. Sure it will have some terrific capabilities, but media costs and those huge 4K files for archiving worry me. I also looked hard at the Sony FS7 but, whilst it’s a terrific camera, it’s just too cumbersome for my specific needs (and it’s sluggish menu system, bugs etc. would annoy me - plus it still needs add ons to make it a true shoulder mount cam anyway). I’m also considering buying a brushless gimbal and I really wanted a smaller cam for that.

So I sat and waited for IBC and, as I’d hoped, Sony launched something smaller - the PXW-FS5 on 11th September. It looks like a Canon C100 MkII killer to me! I pre-ordered one immediately (and a Metabones MkIV EF to NEX adapter, both with CVP.com) as this cam will fit my needs far better.

With 10-bit Full HD (4.2.2 1080p50 XAVC Long GoP at 50 Mbps) the Sony PXW-FS5 should be a terrific S35 successor to my Canon C100. The PXW-FS5 has a much better codec than what Canon is offering in the C100 MkII (although the Inter-frame version of XAVC would have been even better). It also has Full HD HFR (high frame rate) burst options at up to 240 FPS. Furthermore, it’ll allow me to dabble in 4K (actually QFHD) with its internal 8-bit 4.2.0 XAVC Long-GoP at 100Mbps capability - sure more of an “entry level” 4K capability for a S35 sensor cam - 10-bit 4.2.2 and a higher bit rate would have been terrific. However, what’s on offer is good enough for my specific needs (at this point in time) as 4K is still some way off with my client base. Even better, a future firmware update for “true 4K” and raw output has been promised - at a price and date yet to be announced - so with an external recorder some future options might become possible.

Just posting this as I always find it very useful to read how others make that most difficult of decisions - buying a new camera. Sure, the FS5 may not be for you Jack and you've explained why really well - but for others my personal perspective may have some value in helping them decide to consider the FS5 - or not.

Hope this is useful to someone!

Re: New Sony PXW-FS5
 

Jack - you haven't found the right camera for you in your budget range. But what occurs to me is who are you competing with? How do they do it and beat you on price? At the moment no one has access to your perfect camera at your price range so if clients really want it, charge more and work out financially how you structure it. If clients won't pay they don't really want it.

Sony have positioned the PXW-FS5 so it does less than the FS7 and that in turn does less than the F5. It's hardly surpising that a camera that costs less doesn't have every feature that the more expensive ones do.

There are very few camera's out that shoot 4K 60P but the kind of cam you want I expect will probably come first from one of the smaller players. Then Sony will respond..

Re: New Sony PXW-FS5
 

Jack... Have you seen Goodfellas?
I can sum up your ENTIRE client problem in one scene.
Watch this... Except imagine him saying "you want 4k-60?"

The reason you have a problem here is because you aren't charging enough to buy the camera you want... Not because it doesn't exist!
Learn to charge more or get higher end clients, make more money, buy an F55 or whatever you want.

Re: New Sony PXW-FS5
 

This camera has so much going for it. I was eyeballing the FS7 but after holding this thing at IBC I was pretty much sold. I could hold this for hours. Reminded me vaguely of the trusty&ancient PD-150 (shooting through the viewfinder) - but with much better ergonomics. The ND-filter implementation is brilliant.

Small and powerful- and with images coming out of it like the FS7! Who doesn't want an FS5? 60fps lovers...?

I have shot entire documentaries on the Panasonic GH2, broadcast here in the Netherlands. Don't get hung up on numbers...

Re: New Sony PXW-FS5
 

The clients I get literally are via networking and they constantly low ball me. If I communicated that I wanted ridiculous rates for stuff, I get no work. Even offering my services for half the rental rate of my current camera, the EX1R, I got NO GIGS.

I'm also a terrible communicator at cold calling and etc. So all my client relationships are friendship based, not professional. It's my condition that hinders me too.

Re: New Sony PXW-FS5
 

Thank you for a hands-on impression.
I used a PD-150 and I wasn't really in love with the form. It wasn't fun to handhold for a long period of time. I hope the FS5 is considerably better in this regard.

Re: New Sony PXW-FS5
 

Here's Alister Chapman's hands on review of the Sony PXW-FS5:

The Sony PXW-FS5. Run and Gun Super35 for all. | XDCAM-USER.COM

Re: New Sony PXW-FS5
 

I remember doing a business course, and a scenario came up of "how to handle clients who press for lower rates". The advice given was to try to accommodate - but in general terms along the lines of "well, I might be able to do it for that price, but we will have to simplify the work".

The alternatives (I believe) were "no, it's this price" or simply going along with them, and the latter was generally seen as a slippery slope.

So, I tend to agree with the others - the problem lies not with this camera, but with your clients expectations. Somehow you have to tell them that if they want 60p, 4K, a decent quality camera, and a low rate, they'll have to choose which three of those four.

Anyway - back to the camera itself...... I'm hoping to see it in a week or two, but thanks for posting Alister's impressions in the meantime, Andy.

If I've one question, it's about the Clear Image zoom. Alister says "The camera even has Sony’s clear image zoom function that electronically increases the zoom range with virtually no image degradation." - but presumably that's only true in HD, not 4K? Start zooming by cropping, and if the whole sensor is 3840x2160, you'll still have more than enough photosites to give HD after the crop, but not 4K?

Re: New Sony PXW-FS5
 

I believe Jack is a few years out of school. When you're young it's a) hard to book big clients, b) hard to raise the rate, c) you're not a very good negotiator yet. All things that change with time, in my experience.

Re: New Sony PXW-FS5
 

David, there is some good information about the Clear Image Zoom function (and lot of other interesting technical info!) in the 20-minute Sony video that was embedded in Post #41 (on Page 3 of in this thread). It's the one where the Sony Design Engineer talks us through the various features/aspects of the camera with it in his hands.

Re: New Sony PXW-FS5
 

thanks for that clarification on the focussing of the lens, so its just like the x70.
ill pass, im better off buying the 70 for 4,000 less.
youd think theyd have a true focus on the fs5 for that price

Re: New Sony PXW-FS5
 

It's a kit lens. You can use any lens you want that may have geared focus. The 18-105 is an all-around lens, and has some compromises. But for a walkaround lens that's F4 throughout and $550... it ain't bad.

Re: New Sony PXW-FS5
 

Plus I have Asperger's Syndrome, yet another factor in why I've been a terrible communicator other than trying to make clients via friendships.

Re: New Sony PXW-FS5
 

As Andy mentions a lot of other interesting detail. A very important piece of information that slips through pretty quickly if you are not careful lies between 6:12 and 6:34 in that embedded video in post #41. That is the fact that Sony with its own proprietary XAVC-L codec are the only manufacturer using DUAL-PASS H.264 encoding in their cameras. This goes a long way to explaining how Sony is getting the quality they are out of the 50-mbit HD encoding on their cameras that run this codec. I've been surprised how the X70 handles rapid and complex scene movement with its XAVC-L 50-mbit codec. It handles it extremely well indeed.

Anyone who understands the efficiency and benefits of dual-pass encoding when encoding H.264 / x264 will have witnessed the improvement with dual-pass encoding especially if the video contains high motion content. Hard to encode scenes that contain material such as spray from water fountains or rapidly falling rain on flowing water surfaces being particular hard to encode efficiently. So it's not all in the bit rate is it.

Interesting camera. In many ways it is an X70 codec wise, barring the X70's QFHD upgrade but with the S35 sensor from its bigger brothers. 4K for me is not a big demand in the foreseeable future for me so I pretty tempted to give this a go. A cross between and X70 and an FS7 could work.

Chris Young
CYV Productions
Sydney

Re: New Sony PXW-FS5
 

For those in the UK...I just saw a CVP Facebook post the says they will have a FS5 available tomorrow morning (Wed 23rd Sep) at their Brentwood store.

I am unable to go due to my schedule :-(....but book in if you can and tell us all what you think afterwards!

I also had a delivery notification from CVP that my Metabones adapter (Mark IV, Canon EF to Sony) will arrive today. When I ordered it, delivery was estimated at around 6 weeks so I wanted to make sure I had one in my hands...was n't expecting it so soon...now all I need is an FS5 to attach it too!

Re: New Sony PXW-FS5
 

I've got an FS5 on pre-order right now.

Next week I have a shoot for which I need an extra camera. Lockdown wide shot. I currently have an FS-100 and a 5DMkII. Whatever I buy, I'd like it to play nice with the FS5. Something in the $1000 price range. Any suggestions?

Re: New Sony PXW-FS5
 

A used GH4 (with V-log)?

Re: New Sony PXW-FS5
 

Rent an A7s or something similar?

Re: New Sony PXW-FS5
 

That's a marketing and sales problem 100%. Even getting "the right" camera isn't going to keep you from getting low balled - and we're not talking about ridiculous rates, we're talking about getting paid a FAIR price for the work you do.

Solve your client/sales/marketing problem or do something else for work, because if you can't do sales, you aren't going to be in the game for the long haul.

If you want some suggestions, I'll start a new thread.

Re: New Sony PXW-FS5
 

Jack, my friend, I can' t offer much help 'cause I am ALSO a terrible salesman, but if you're actually doing work or offering it with an EX1 for half a camera rental rate -- which, should be between $200-350/day, making YOUR offer $100-175/day, that is pretty messed up (unless it was a last minute call, i.e., you would have made NO money that day otherwise -- that was just for a few hours, and preferably in the evening), and even more messed up if people won't hire you at those rates, since that is an insanely generous deal.

If you're still struggling that much I definitely wouldn't get ANOTHER piece of gear, putting you even further in the hole that will take forever to pay off (remember, if you make, say $500 a day with your cam, your cam isn't really making $500/day, your labor is part of that, and any other gear you're bringing along-- Your cam might be $200 of that, or $250 or something. So that day, your camera made $250 that's how you should think of it.. That cam hasn't REALLY made its money back until you've made back the cost IN CAMERA RENTAL FEES ALONE. I believe someone said that a cam should pay for itself the way I describe in a year to a year and a half, tops. If you spend $5500+ on a camera, will you make that back in that amount of time, IN CAMERA RENTAL FEES ALONE?

Again, I am also terrible at the sales side of this-- people just sort of find me when they find me -- but you should figure out how to be more viable with the gear you have (EX1 still a very nice cam, should be able to get decent work with it even now), and if people are DEMANDING 4k60p or anything else, you simply have to say "I can do that, but it will cost you $xxx. For what your budget is, I can only do [whatever]." That's all there is to it. Otherwise you're getting screwed hard and eventually it won't sustain and the whole thing will implode in on itself. We all make compromises on our rates occasionally to stay working (despite what many will insist on), but those compromises should only be UP TO A POINT. Sometimes you just have to say "no, sorry, can't do it. Good luck."

Re: New Sony PXW-FS5
 

The specs show HFR files are in 60i/50i format only. Odd choice. Marketing segmentation? I'd be interested to see how the slow-mo looks once it's rendered out in a 30p format.

Mark

Re: New Sony PXW-FS5
 

I have just read elsewhere on the web a summary of points learnt yesterday during a Sony FS5 demo in Canada. The FS5 will NOT have have a Wave Form Monitoring option at launch. It will have Histogram, Zebras and Focus Peaking.

Re: New Sony PXW-FS5
 

Surely that must be a typo - I blummin well hope so! From what I have just read the HFR option seems to operate very much like on the FS700 (which it seems to share a lot of its guts with). So, are the HFR options on that camera interlaced only?

Re: New Sony PXW-FS5
 

Highly unlikely. My guess is that they are progressive, but somewhere along the line are being transposed into psf - which is then being seen as interlace.

Re: New Sony PXW-FS5
 

On the FS700 HFR it is true progressive but you can select output as 25p or 25PSF or 50p (pull down) and I would imagine that the FS5 would follow that lead.

Chris Young
CYV Productions
Sydney