New Sony PXW-FS5
 

Press Release:
http://blog.sony.com/press/sony-expa...super35-model/

PXW-FS5 (PXWFS5) : Specifications : United Kingdom : Sony Professional

Looks fantastic. Had this camera been announced along side the FS7 last year I would have went this route.

4K Xavc-L 100mbs 8bit
HD 10bit 422 50mbs
240fps HD burst mode, and 960/720p
AVCHD 2.0
Electronic ND - filter
SD media recording

Re: New Sony PXW-FS5
 

I will admit, I'm impressed at how much they threw into this camera. When we have the budget for another body, we'll certainly considering this one. I love the size and internal recording options.

Of course, the FS700+Odyssey can still out-shoot it for now with continuous 240fps HD and 4k at 120fps, but with a serious weight and handling penalty (a keen point since I just spent the last two days trudging through grasslands, mud bogs and fields with a fully-rigged FS700 setup, much to my shoulder's dismay.)

It will be interesting to see if Convergent Designs will be able to coax the same level of performance once Sony adds the (paid) 4k Raw upgrade to the FS5.

Re: New Sony PXW-FS5
 

More info:

Sony

Re: New Sony PXW-FS5
 

B&H has it up on their site, $6,099 with the power zoom lens:

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1185424-REG/sony_pxw_fs5_xdcam_super_35.html
Might be time for me to retire the trusty NX5U.

Re: New Sony PXW-FS5
 

That's a very nice price!

Body only is at $5599
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1185424-REG/sony_pxw_fs5_xdcam_super_35.html

Re: New Sony PXW-FS5
 

Dear Friends,

The Sony FS5 is an exciting camera.

Our Odyssey7Q+ is fully capable of supporting every signal that the new Sony FS5 is currently capable of outputting.

Also, when Sony adds Raw to this camera, we are fully capable of supporting the new capabilities, in all frame rates and modes.

Here is Sony's statement:

"In the future, there will even be the option to record RAW externally (details to be announced.)"

When this option becomes available, we will fully support it.


Respectfully,

Re: New Sony PXW-FS5
 

OK, that price has sold it for me.
Time to sell my PMW300.

Re: New Sony PXW-FS5
 

For people mainly interested in narrative, like me, the Mini Ursa shooting ProRes is still a better option. That codec is amazing for color grading and I doubt the 4K Xavc-L 100mbs 8bit is as good.

Granted, form factor is amazing
ND filters, great, although again, the setting for narrative is different
Of course support from Sony will be better than from BMC.

I was hoping to see something similar to the Ursa Mini with the amazing after sale support and quality control of a giant like sony. But no, they threw in a crappy codec.

Re: New Sony PXW-FS5
 

Really not sold that it's not 100% future proofed for budget wise people. You can use the "console video gamer" argument "30fps looks fine to me." But 4K without 60p just doesn't equate in my books. The FS5 will instantly be rejected by Discovery/BBC for feature production for not meeting 60fps in 4K. You can possibly redeem it with RAW, but then they'll probably make that option priced $2000+

The future is NOT 30fps people. Let's not make it that way. Even YouTube said they will support 4K 60p via VP9 very soon.

Also, this should not be an XDCAM camera cause it has no legacy XDCAM support.

Re: New Sony PXW-FS5
 

I agree. They would have been better off using XQD cards and making the same spec marketing choices they made between the FDR-AX1 and the PXW-Z100 but use the FS7 as the base. Limit the FS5 to LongGOP, no RAW etc would have been a much better product and one I would have changed to from my FDR-AX1 . However looking at the spec the core technology may in fact come from the PXW-X70 ( other than 100Mbps for 30P QFHD they look the same ) so may have technology limits. Right now the DVX200 looks to be a better choice.

Ron Evans

Re: New Sony PXW-FS5
 

i dont understand why folks are so gung ho over 60p, except for slo mo. 60p is the progressive equivalent of 60i, right? i.e the soap opera/news/reality look we've all been trying to get away from for 15 years. what am i missing?

Re: New Sony PXW-FS5
 

Yes you are correct 60P is the temporal equivalent of 60i so is the equivalent in this modern world. For motion etc it or even faster frame rate would be the choice. That is exactly what I want. I shoot events and want it to look just as if the viewer was there in the live event, no effects or artistic grading. I want that smooth through the window look, no judder, no shallow depth of focus so I guess that is exactly opposite from what you want !!! So I want 60P to view at 60P not for a slow motion effect. As you wonder about 60P I wonder at why people like slow frame rates especially 24P that just doesn't fit into a digital world with refresh rates on screens that are just not in line with a multiple of 24 and need a pulldown cadence to be viewed !!!

Ron Evans

Re: New Sony PXW-FS5
 

To each his own, but lucky for me I'm into the 24p look, so no 60p UHD really isn't that big of a deal. I think I've used 60p maybe once on my C100 in the last year.

With an external recorder we can get 4:2:2 and basically any bitrate we would want, so only thing "missing" is 10-bit and HFR. For the price, size and simplicity, I can wait another year for those.

Re: New Sony PXW-FS5
 

I have to confess that while early impressions about the FS5 were good, finding out things like no 4K 60p, and no "true 4K" anyway (QFHD only) struck me as negatives.

But I wonder...... I'm coming round to thinking that Sony's thinking is now that with so many models, it makes sense to accept that there isn't going to be the single "one size fits all" model - so why even try to cater for such?

So assume they took the view of optimising design for the budget cinema market, and decided that other models were more optimal for the event etc market - the market (like Jack) who see 60p as important. Accept that - and after learning the FS5 will be upgradeable to 4096x2160 cinema 4K and even RAW output - and doesn't the FS5 start to look a little like the "AF200" that some were hoping for?

As far as framerate goes, then personally I'd like to see the back of 24fps. As screens get bigger, I increasingly find the judder disturbing, and it really only works at all by adhering to strict rules about speed of camera movement etc. Maybe not too big a hardship for a feature film, but forget 24fps for live sport etc. It's a hangover from film cost days and the 1920s - the minimum that could be got away with for cost reasons without too big a quality hit for optical sound tracks. But people have got used to it.

That said, it's likely to remain industry standard even in the likes of Hollywood for a while, I'm afraid, so if you're currently buying a camera for low budget cinema work, I suspect the lack of 60p won't be too big a hardship. And by the time 4K 60p (or certainly QFHD 60p) starts to become more in demand, expect a whole new raft of cameras to be coming out.

Re: New Sony PXW-FS5
 

And if you're in the market where such as 10 bit may be significant, then with the upgrade an external recorder will give you far more with RAW.

And if you're talking about a 3840x2160 Bayer chip, you won't get any more than about 1920x1080 chroma resolution from it anyway after deBayering. It's not physically possible. So in this case QFHD 4:2:0 will be able to capture all the colour information that's available. All 4:2:2 recording will do here is waste bandwidth.

Re: New Sony PXW-FS5
 

Meaning we are still on the bleeding edge of 4K acquisition. Remember those who bought HDMI 1.4a monitors? Early adopters that are now facing early planned obsolescence.

Re: New Sony PXW-FS5
 

Well, I ordered two FS5 packages (with the lens) last Friday -- the day it was announced.

Perfect? Haven't seen that camera in 50 years of looking. ;)

Good for what I do? Yep!

Gonna come up short on some things? I imagine so, but I just don't care.

The images look good, the cameras are easy to shoot, I can run audio into them, I can use them in the studio, I can shoot interviews in UHD framed wide so I can cut in for that closeup (second camera) look, etc., etc. Mostly they will be shot outside at events and at shoots we create. Currently shooting XF105s, XS305s, A7ii, and FS700.

Sometimes "good enough" really is.


Or, "The enemy of good is an attempt at perfect." ;)

Re: New Sony PXW-FS5
 

When "good enough" is all you can accept, some think of that as admitting of defeat.

My biggest pet peeve in both video gaming and video acquisition is those that think 30p is good enough cause they can't tell the difference, and those that say the eye can't see above 24fps. (YES IT CAN. Not as whole images but it can sense higher frame rates in the form of temporal data.)

If I'm only gonna get 4K30p, I'd much rather get the MFT 4K camera coming soon from engineers from Ambarella, the people that manufacturer the GoPro in China: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects...le-lens-camera

IMO, 30p cannot be taken seriously anymore. YouTube will move to supporting 4K 60p so there is no reason soon to limit yourself to 30p. And like I said, for nature feature production with BBC and Discovery, your footage from the FS5 if it's not via the RAW upgrade will be instantly rejected since it doesn't comply with 4K 60p.

Re: New Sony PXW-FS5
 

" When 'good enough' is all you can accept, some think of that as admitting of defeat."

Hardly. Our TV series run on networks which have no plans to go 4K. We are cranking out two 30-minute episodes a week during the busy season, for two series, plus a digital series (14 episodes) where we'll run 6 to 9 cameras at a time. Lots of editing on that sucker.

I could spend more on cameras, and that money would be completely wasted. These shows are not evergreen. They will run, and then they are done. No need to "future proof" them.

Not cinema. Just TV. Providing employment for several people, entertaining a lot of folks, and making the shows as good as the time/budget/advertising will allow.

Way back in my magazine photography and editing days, in my first job as assistant editor (1975), the managing editor explained it this way. "We never get the issue to the point we would really like. We do as much as we can, but then we have to send it to the printer." Same with TV. It has to go to the network on a certain day, even when you know that if you had another week it would be better.

Many times, "good enough" is all you get.

Re: New Sony PXW-FS5
 

Yes, 100% freelancing vs time constrained contract based work are 101% different.

A sole proprietorship cares more about quality and less often about time and budget since most of the time it's personal investment into the quality of the product that's being produced. When you know what works, you save up to go for it.

For me, 60p is uncompromisable by now. I have clients nagging me to get a 1080p 60p camera and my EX1R can't do that. Then again, my final output is to the web (where there's now proper 1080p 60p distribution channels in the form of YouTube)

I know the US Reality TV acquisition standard is 1080 30p, so for those time rushed environments, it's just familiar territory with fast turnaround time.

Re: New Sony PXW-FS5
 

Hmmm - in which case the entire feature film industry is admitting defeat.....?
Is anybody really saying they can't see the difference? I thought it was more the opposite - that the 24p aficionados actively PREFER the look of 24p - at least for genres such as features?

I actually have sympathy with you - 24/25p puts constraints on production such as panning speed, and even then can lead to jerkiness. But realistically, 1080p/50 and 4K/24(25)p in a camera of this price level are going to satisfy the vast majority of potential users at the moment, aren't they? Does Tom even need the 4K abilities at all?

Both exceed all current broadcast formats, the former in progressive frame rate, the latter in spatial resolution. Most current UK TV (even at the high end) is still being shot 1080i/25 or 1080p/25, even with far higher end cameras.

Re: New Sony PXW-FS5
 

David, there's both. Those that can't see the difference and those that swear by 24p.

The video gaming community has been arguing against artificial frame rate limits for years, and it's one of the most heated debates to this day, cause some console video game players say they can't sense framerate cause they're so used to 30p.

The reason why I didn't go for a GH4 was I was waiting for the next-gen with 60p. Here's hoping that doesn't have a massive crop factor problem like the DVX200.

Re: New Sony PXW-FS5
 

Jack, the FS5 doesn't, and won't do 4K60P, and nothing's going to change that. This camera is not for you, obviously. Spend some more money and get the excellent FS7, for one example, if you require 4K60P.
Heck, even my little HC-X1000 does 4K60P, although it wouldn't pass muster for the big league networks.

I think part of the lack of 4K60P at broadcast 200Mbps is Sony's decision to use cheaper SD cards. This is more of a budget camera, it would seem. If you need more, Sony offers other cameras that will do the job.

The rest of us will decide on our own if we value 4K60P enough to pass on this camera, or if we're content with this limitation. This does not mean we're admitting defeat, it just means it's not a big deal in our workflow. Personally, I have yet to use 1080/60P in any of my productions, much less 4K60P, but that's hardly a failure. My broadcast clients are very happy with good ol' 1080/30P-60i.

Yes, lack of 4K60P does limit the FS5 for some applications, but it seems it will do just fine in many others. My biggest concern is its lack of a Timecode in/out port. Even the DVX200 has one. I'll decide if that's enough of a reason to buy or not to buy. And if the XAVC-L HD codec is robust enough for HD broadcast standards (I think it is).

But don't forget, soon this little camera will output 4K Raw! That should satisfy everyone's needs.

I understand your disappointment in the FS5's lack of internal 4K60P, but nothing's going to change that. It is what it is.

Re: New Sony PXW-FS5
 

A little disappointment is a huge understatement when my clients pressure me into shooting 60p all the time.

The 5K price point being considered "budget" is what really peeves me off. With the DVX200, you'd expect something around that price range to have this by now. If the crop factor wasn't so bad, I would have gone with the DVX200. And they use UHS-I U3 cards, not even UHS-II. Sony is so focused on pushing XQD they don't give a single chance to SD cards for higher bitrates.

My definition of Budget is the GH4 crowd, and the people getting the new crop of Ambarella powered MFT 4K cameras. (DJI's adopting the same tech for MFT 4K drone cameras) If I only want 30p, I get a GH4. But I'm beyond the point where my clients will be satisfied with 30p.

I absolutely hate when it's so close to being perfect, but then there's that one deal breaker that makes you so frustrated, sad, and all the worst emotions all at the same time.

Re: New Sony PXW-FS5
 

I agree that the SD card decision may be why they are limiting the bitrate, but 4K at 60p is a separate issue with a long-GOP codec. It's the I-frames that devour most of the bitrate, and if you keep to (say) 2 per sec (so double the GOP length), 60p doesn't need much extra bitrate than 30p.

Fully agree with the rest of your post.
60p, maybe..... but 60p at 4K (or QFHD)? If in that market, I really think they need to have the budgets to go into a higher band. And 4Kp60 is one thing - the image is only as good as the front end, and if that system is so significant it really needs a camera of higher fundamental standard, at least going into FS7, F5 territory.

Re: New Sony PXW-FS5
 

There can still be a 1'' sensor fixed lens camera with 4K 60p. I don't know why you all are fixated on the FS7 being a "required higher tier" in terms of hardware.

The 1'' replacement for the Z100 would be a blessing, if it's outfitted with a good fixed lens.

Super35 and FF aren't the only sensor sizes, people.

Re: New Sony PXW-FS5
 

I think in the case of Sony, limiting the FS5 to UHD/30p is done for the reason of product (or market) segmentation as much as certain hardware limitations. The company are known to do similar thing with their other lines of products. Good for them in this digital videography age that a good percentage of their customers appreciate, and can make better use of those slower frame rates. It's certainly easier, and cheaper, for them to make products that fit those needs.

Re: New Sony PXW-FS5
 

Those that say HFR left a bad taste in their mouth likely are the same people in favor of slow frame rates. By your logic, the majority of the market favors "filmic" look rather than realistic. That is not the future. If this were the case, NHK would make 8K and keep 24 frames. They aren't. They're moving to 60 frames and 120 frames a second, going for realism rather than retaining a filmic look.

I will beat this to death, but my clients request 60p, and to say "No, I can't do 60p" devalues my services.

Re: New Sony PXW-FS5
 

I might agree with you Jack but my experience between my FDR-AX100 with the 1" sensor and the NX30U with a 1/3" sensor show little performance difference in practice in lower light for example. It is the lens I think that makes the difference. I too shoot 60P for realism ( though my NX5U is still 60i all my other cameras shoot 60P in HD, AX100, NX30U, CX700 and the FDR-AX1 at QFHD ) A 1" sensor with a proportionally performing lens would be great but I fear may be really expensive even for a 1" sensor to get a fast f1.6 like the 1/3" sensor use. The NX5U seems to still have the low light advantage with my collection since its pixels are much larger than the others though it is noisier with not having the latest technology. My FDR-AX1 of course uses much the same 20x lens but its pixel size is so small in comparison the low light performance is the worst of the family !!! My use for QFHD is to shoot a full stage view from the back of the hall, fixed , no movement so no need for a zoom lens other than to frame the stage. A small fast, wide zoom would have been perfect and I had hoped Sony would make an E-mount replacement for my FDR-AX1, sort of an EA50 in QFHD. Maybe some time !! Leaving off 60P in the FS5 may be due to the technology in the camera but Sony certainly have the technology available so then it must be a marketing decision. Maybe the NX family will introduce the product we want !!! An NX100 4k60P to SDXC U3 cards might just do the trick for me and provide competition for the DVX200 !!! Sony have no competitor to the DVX200, FDR-AX1 discontinued so I expect the PXW-Z100 will follow soon too.

Ron Evans

Re: New Sony PXW-FS5
 

Keep in mind that Canon's offering in this price range has only just introduced 60p @ 1080, and has no 4K at all. And that particular camera's predecessor was flying off the shelves even though it only had HD @ 24/30p. These companies know their market and they also know that they cannot please everyone all of the time. If you fall into the minority who aren't happy with this camera, and it doesn't deliver what your clients demand, then there are plenty of other offerings out there.

Re: New Sony PXW-FS5
 

I have to agree with Tom here! I shoot for major networks in Canada and the USA. They have no interest in anything above 1080 and several INSIST on 720p. My interest in this camera and 4K is simply for its ability to shoot a single cam and re-frame. Mostly for those corporate clients that want a two camera interview shoot. Certainly 4K is a reality down the road but I have yet to hear any of my colleagues saying they lost a gig for not having it yet, though it will come.

Re: New Sony PXW-FS5
 

For me the sole use for QFHD is to re-frame, pan and zoom the image down to 1920x1080. I got my FDR-AX1 to try this out and it works very well with pans and zooms much smoother and more precise than I could achieve manually. Of course for a stage show I would not miss anything on stage either. A bit like re-framing an interview using a wide QFHD shooting angle. For archive I could have a QFHD full stage view.

As to availability of 4K TV's in Costco yesterday there were a lot of 4K TV's at similar prices to HD TV's. I am sure by next year it will be the norm. Content will need to be good quality HD to upscale well or will start to look like 4:3 image on a 16:9 set, dating it.

I think Jack`s and my desire for 60P is echoed by Brian saying some networks insist on 720P ( for smooth 60P motion ? and of courses transmission bandwidth ) we would just like it in QFHD which I am sure is where they will go for the next system move.

Ron Evans

Re: New Sony PXW-FS5
 

So is it possible 4K 60P can be a future upgrade?

Re: New Sony PXW-FS5
 

I think that may depend on what SD hardware Sony have put in the camera. There are plenty of SDXC cards that will record 150Mbps which is what is needed and that is what the Panasonic DVX200 is doing.

Ron Evans

Re: New Sony PXW-FS5
 

Sony cares too much about XQD sales to allow higher speed SD card tech in their cameras. If they want to support 60p, add UHS-II support, but they've stalled on that for 2 years likely because they're seeing XQD sales not meeting expectations and they want to keep XQD alive.

Re: New Sony PXW-FS5
 

Bid on my first 4K corporate shoot last week. They want all shooting AND post done in 4K, including animation. It's unclear whether they can really project 4K or whether it's just the latest buzz word, but at least in small pockets, the demand is here.

Re: New Sony PXW-FS5
 

Don't know, it would depend on many facts - but I don't think bitrate/speed of SD cards etc is one of them. With a long-GOP codec 60p doesn't need much more bitrate than 30p, for the reason I gave earlier - certainly nowhere near twice as much, as you may first think. (Witness AVCHD, and the 28Mbs versus 24Mbs rates.)

Re: New Sony PXW-FS5
 

Really glad to read that the FS5 does have a Waveform Monitor :-) ...especially because of his comment about nailing exposure with 4K at 4.2.0.

Interesting to read the comment that it is MORE sensitive/lower noise than the FS7, despite the same sensor being used in both cams, I guess because of improvements in processing since the FS7 first came out?

Really glad I got my pre-order in last Friday! Roll on November.

Re: New Sony PXW-FS5
 

Is the eyecup viewfinder the same as one used on another Sony-line camera? I'd like to put my eye on it before I buy one sight-unseen.

Re: New Sony PXW-FS5 Sony's product manager Juan Martinez
 

Sony is introducing a new cinema camera positioned between the FS7 and the FS700 in their lineup. Sony's product manager Juan Martinez gives an exclusive briefing on the new Sony PXW-FS5 cinema camera to Newsshooter's contributing editor Chuck Fadely on the 35th floor of Sony headquarters in New York City. The PXW-FS5 is a smaller and lighter little brother to the FS7.