Legal Deposition Camera Recommendations
 

Hello -

I realize there are numerous threads regarding the Legal Video Deposition topic, so forgive me please if this seems redundant.

For those of you that are currently doing or have done LVD's, would these cams suffice:

- Panasonic AG-AC90
- Sony NX30U

...or maybe some other models?

Re: Legal Deposition Camera Recommendations
 

Yes, but be prepared to employ some lights and make sure you cover the delivery aspects. Some clients require the original files from the camera,
to ensure there's been no editing.

Don't use the camera mic, get mics as close as you can to the persons of interest. Always monitor with headphones,
they usually don't speak up or even clearly. Run a Google on 'videoing depositions'

Cheers.

Re: Legal Deposition Camera Recommendations
 

The biggest thing is make sure the camera burns in the date/time stamp. I found this a tricky thing to research, & aside from reading up that someone else uses it, I didn't have much luck knowing for a fact. In general, Sonys & Panasonics tend to, Canons did not.

They both have XLR inputs, which you'll need. You'll need to purchase at least 4 wired mics, and a mixer with XLR output to the camera. Also, you'll need a DVD recorder, which you firewire out from the camera. Pretty easy, and a grey backdrop. Buy a cheap collapesable one, they're easy to carry around along with the 4-5 other bags & cases you'll have. I've never needed to use lights, I wouldn't bother. Definitely test it all out & work out the tweaks (line/mic, DVD input, mic phantom power) and practice the setup & breakdown a couple times in your place before going out in the field.

The only thing I question is if you work with any court reporting firms, I've found some ask for the Tape, whereas some ask for the DVD. So shooting to memory card might not always be a plus, but then again buying a tape camera today vs 4 years ago when I upgraded (Sony Z5U, MiniDV) seems less wise. However maybe they are able to workaround using the DVD or memory file, just "prefer" tapes. Probably DVD, I doubt any places want you to Dropbox or file transfer the dep.

Good luck, it's definitely a cost cutting market where you can feel taken for granted, and the % of cancelations will amaze you. Let me know if you have any questions.

Re: Legal Deposition Camera Recommendations
 

Andrew,

I have researched both of those cameras and neither one is outputting date & time on the video. If you want to author your DVDs using an NLE (post production), then any camera will work, as AVCHD has date & time info as metadata - but you won't be able to burn a DVD on location, real time.

I've been through this same dilemma just a couple of months ago...

Re: Legal Deposition Camera Recommendations
 

If that's the case screw it and look for something that does. I know it sound like "No problem, I'll just import them to my PC, then burn a DVD" is ok... But try doing this for a 5 hour deposition, and getting them to a FedEx/UPS shipping facility or dropbox. And you have to be at a 9am dep the next morning.

I've spent nights doing this, my DVD burner burns a coaster, or I didn't have enough space/time to set up the DVD recorder (small Dr's office), so I shot only to tape. It's a pain. Most depos are short, I've found they average about 3 hours, actually they're either an hour & half, or 4 hours. Not much in between, with some 6+, haven't had many of them though when they happen it's nice. Anyway, I'd recommend something that burns date/time right away, but suit yourself. It's really nice to walk away & know everythings done. Although you already have to go home, label the tapes/DVD's, print up an invoice, drop it off at a shipping location etc... There's enough to do after the fact already, don't make any more of it if you can help it.

Re: Legal Deposition Camera Recommendations
 

You all are a great resource and wealth of information!!

Many thanks to ALL of you for your first hand insights.

- Time / Date Stamp - Yes, that is a DEFINITE for this line of work. Didn't know those cams could not do this. Funny, I have an old Sony TRV99 that does it; but I guess the manufacturers decided it wasn't feasible to have that function on these lower priced cams anymore.

- Tapes and DVD's?! Wow, I didn't know people still wanted those formats!! Those are so .... yesterday!! I thought the legal profession would accept SD cards, USB Flash Drives.

- Original footage - Do they want the "original" recording? So I'd have to keep the "copy" for myself?

- Mixer - Definitely a given considering more than two mics will be utilized.

So for the cameras that have the "Date / Time" burn in ability, any suggestions? My research so far has led me to the Panny 160a.

Re: Legal Deposition Camera Recommendations
 

Don't worry too much about quality. HD is not needed & probably won't be for a very long time... Courtrooms tend to have older equipment & it's doubtful many US Courts will upgrade to HDTV's & Blu Ray any time soon. Although if you plan on using this camera for your own recreation (weddings, hobby etc), you should get something as good as you need or want for that. Otherwise, really just find something reliable that works.

You DEFINITELY will need to keep a backup, AnD have a shooting method to two formats. Just in case something goes wrong. Imagine your SD card fails, or you erase it by mistake or misplace it. DVD is a good backup, and alot of people prefer it so you probably wanna look down that road. Think about this, if you have the video on USB or SD card, how will you get it to the lawfirm/court reporting firm? Mail it?? Who's paying for the card/USB, you?? Do you expect them to mail it back to you? And even though there's way of probably securing sending them over the internet, most people you deal with wouldn't trust it. For privacy/security concerns. These things are pretty secure & confidential. Plus, most just arent' set up for it, so don't plan on being the first high tech videographer able to Dropbox the file that evening, and expect them to change their format. You'll likely be responded to with "That's ok, just send us the DVD" no matter how much sense in the world your way sounds. Sometimes you just go with the flow.

My honest opinion, is that the field will likely goto virtual streaming in several years. Alot of times lawyers fly in from out of state, building up high expense fees. Already I've had only a couple where while I videotaped the dep, an attorney was questioning via Skype type technology, where he can view the deponent from the laptops webcam. Others are often on only via conference call (usually where the case or deponent doesn't warrant spending alot of time/travel). My guess is in a matter of years it will be alot of virtual videoconferencing with it being recorded virtually as well. Just my guess, but on the other hand that could open up a new position right there, somehow.

Just something to keep in mind. I don't think there's a long term market for professional HD videocameras in the market, when the ability of a laptop webcam may soon suffice. Just my $.02

Re: Legal Deposition Camera Recommendations
 

Ervin -

Just curious, what cams did find that could "burn" in the Time / Date info.?

Also, doesn't the client (attorney / lawyer) want the footage after the deposition is done?

Re: Legal Deposition Camera Recommendations
 

So while recording (in camera), would I be able to simultaneously record to a (external of course) DVD recorder?

Re: Legal Deposition Camera Recommendations
 

Yes, you can use audio/video outputs to record to a backup device, or even make that your primary recorder and use the internal SD card as backup.

Sadly all manufacturers left this field, only Panasonic has current models that do date/time code overlay. Some older Sony models still available also fit the bill.

Here's a list from another fora, one specialized in legal video work:

Panasonic AG-HMC80 - SD/HD to SDHC card, tapeless capture, SD out via Firewire
Panasonic AG-HMC150 - HD only to SDHC card, tapeless capture, SD out via HDMI selection
Panasonic AG-AC130 - SD/HD to SDXC/SDHC cards, tapeless capture, SD out via Firewire, HDMI Out
Panasonic AG-AC160 - SD/HD to SDXC/SDHC cards, tapeless capture, SD out via Firewire, HDMI Out, HD-SDI Out
Panasonic AG-HPX170 - SD/HD to P2 card, tapeless capture, SD out via Firewire, HDMI Out, HD-SDI Out
Panasonic AG-HPX250 - SD/HD to P2 cards, tapeless capture, SD out via Firewire, HDMI Out, HD-SDI Out

Sony HVR-Z5U - SD/HD out to MiniDV tape / tapeless capture, SD out via Firewire, HDMI out, Interchangeable Lens
Sony HVR-Z7U - SD/HD out to MiniDV tape / tapeless capture, SD out via Firewire, HDMI out, Interchangeable Lens
Sony HXR NX5U - SD/HD to SDHC card / tapeless capture, HDMI out, SD capture

To your other question, it is very rare that you need to deliver your video at the end of the deposition.

Re: Legal Deposition Camera Recommendations
 

Thanks for your reply Ervin; much appreciate "The List"!!

I'll research these and see if any would fit the bill for my needs.

Again, thank you!!

Re: Legal Deposition Camera Recommendations
 

It also depends on what else you may want to do with your camera. If you want a camera strictly for legal video, I would advise to stick with a good ole' standard definition cam - professional or semi-pro. Look for a large sensor so you can shoot in low light - no one likes videographer's bright lights. You may read about how good HD cameras are for legal video and how HD is coming to the legal field... Our video goes into applications not yet ready for HD, so it'll be a while before the whole industry changes to HD...

Re: Legal Deposition Camera Recommendations
 

Ervin -

Do you think a Canon XL1 (with the XLR adapter of course) would work? Also, do you know if that cam has the ability to "burn" in the Time / Date on the tape?

Also, I take it that it is mandatory to have the Time / Date on the recording .... is that correct?

Re: Legal Deposition Camera Recommendations
 

Date/Time is pretty much mandatory. I had one time where I was asked to NOT shoot with it. I emailed them back just to confirm.

Typically, Canon's might burn date/time, but the time tends to be only Hours & Minutes, not seconds. Sounds petty, but sometimes the video gets synched up to the transcript with exhibits, onjections etc, and it makes it easier on others to also have the seconds in place. My guess is its viable, but I would sway against it tbh. You might get a callback asking why there's no seconds, or, you might get onto the back of their list being known as "The no seconds guy".

As best you can I'd try to stick to Ervins list. I think some JVCs burn as well too. I use a Z5U, and burn to DVD. The Z5U offers an adaptor to also allow to shoot to CF card, though it's about $700 so I haven't bought it yet.

Re: Legal Deposition Camera Recommendations
 

Andrew,

I can't give you an informed opinion on the XL1 because I don't know the camera.

Re: Legal Deposition Camera Recommendations
 

Going thru the menu's in the XL1 and I don't see the ability to "burn" in the Date/Time. Bummer.

Like I stated before, my Sony TRV-99 (Hi-8) cam has this ability. Maybe I should just get an XLR adapter for it and use that to record depositions?

Scarceness of the Hi-8 tape stock could be a concern though.

Any thoughts about this?

Re: Legal Deposition Camera Recommendations
 

I have a PD150 and a PD170 for sale and they can burn time and date and have XLRs.

I also have some miniDV tape stock, a wide angle lens attachment, some filters, AC power supplys, a couple of batterys and chargers. I even have a couple of bags. I wasn't going to post them until the end of the month but....

Re: Legal Deposition Camera Recommendations
 

Hi Andrew,

I don't know how close the XL-1 is to my XH-A1, but to burn in the date and time I need to set a Custom Display and then also set a Customized Function called Character Rec. You might look in the XL-1 manual and see if those two terms are in there. If so, you need to do both. First set up the Custom Display so that the time code is showing, then set a Customized Function that enables the Character Rec. That will send whatever is showing on the Custom Display to tape.

Hope this helps.

Re: Legal Deposition Camera Recommendations
 

Many cameras, including most AVCHD, HDV, and Sony standard definition camcorders do store the date and time in real-time hh:mm:ss (i.e. including secs) in hidden metadata areas, and you can get software that uses this to do a date/time burn-in on previously shot footage. But this is of course not being done "live" so may not be legally permissable, but it might come in handy in some situations.

Re: Legal Deposition Camera Recommendations
 

Thanks for letting me know that you're selling those cams Don.

I'm looking into the Panny AC160a as I will be able to utilize it for other projects too.

Just curious though, how much are you asking for each of your cams?

Re: Legal Deposition Camera Recommendations
 

yeah I threw that out there just to see if anyone was paying attention ;-)

Not really sure yet what I want for them, I'm going to package some of the stuff together like each camera will have a battery or 2, an AC power supply, probably leave the WA, the LANC control, the filters seperate but I haven't figured out a price for anything yet. I'll work on that this week now that I have some other stuff I needed to do taken care of. If you're really interested let me know and I'll PM you with the info first part of next week (once I've figured it out)

Re: Legal Deposition Camera Recommendations
 

Not a problem Don; thanks for keeping me posted.

If you would let me know when you are getting ready to post it for sale, I'd greatly appreciate it.

Thanks again.

Re: Legal Deposition Camera Recommendations
 

A bit of course here, but still related to the scenario:

Any suggestions / advice regarding the following would be greatly appreciated -

- Mixers (brands, inputs, etc...)
- Mics (brands, wireless, wired, etc...)
- Accessories needed

Re: Legal Deposition Camera Recommendations
 

Andrew,
No problem. Give me a couple of days I'm shooting a corporate gig tomorrow and Saturday so probably Monday. I'll PM you before I list anything either here or Ebay.

Re: Legal Deposition Camera Recommendations
 

You will need 4 lavalier mics minimum, Sony ECM-44B is very popular among legal videogs. Wireless mics are FORBIDDEN! You are working in absolute confidentiality, think about what could happen if someone listens to your radio transmission. You should also have a boundary mic for situations where you have a room full of lawyers - you may have as many as 10 or even more on big cases.

For mixer you can use any decent mixer with XLR inputs; the 44Bs can use batteries for phantom power, but if you go for other mics with no battery, your mixer will have to supply phantom power. Shure M367 used to be a good choice with its six inputs, you can still find used ones on eBay; the M267 is current but has only 4 inputs and you will find that in some cases that's not enough.

Re: Legal Deposition Camera Recommendations
 

I do more event and promotional work than legal, so I bought equipment that could be multi-purpose. Here's what I have; maybe it will help you decide:
Mixers:
1 Shure M367 w/6 XLR inputs (more of a field mixer, and I think it's been discontinued for some time)
1 Soundcraft EPM8 w/8 XLR inputs (I've had as many as 5 attorneys plus the deponent, and me)
Plenty of other quality brands: Mackie, Behringer, and more. Just be sure to get one with AT LEAST 4 XLR inputs, more if you can afford it. I have one acquaintance in the business who once did a dep with something like 12 attorneys in the room and had a 4-input mixer.. They ended up sharing/passing mics to either side as needed, and he used the built-in mic for the read-on, but they got through it without problems.
As a backup cam, I also have a Panasonic DVC-20P...cheap cam, records to mini-DV only, but it is a 3-chip cam and does a perfectly adequate job for a deposition. It has the small (mini/3.5mm ?) audio jack, but I use a Juiced Link CX431 on-cam mixer to convert the XLR to the mini-plug.

Mics:
Use all lavs only; all XLR only; no shotguns - and NEVER use only the built-in mics:
1 Audio-Technica AT-899 wired condenser (for deponent)
5 Audio-Technica AT-831R wired condenser (for attorneys & me for read on)
6 Shure SM-11 wired dynamics (backups/extras if necessary)
I've never used wireless mics on a dep.

I'd strongly recommend condenser mics.
You can probably find adequate lavs that are less expensive, but don't go too cheap.
I also know of at least 1 instance (not mine) where an attorney specifically wanted a stereo PZM. I happen to have one (AT-849), but I've never had an attorney ask for one. PZMs pick up too much extra noise for a dep.

Accessories (some already mentioned)::
- decent to good headphones (connected to the camera); NOT ear-buds.
- a cassette audio tape recorder (In my neck of the woods, the stenographer/reporter expects to walk away with an audio recording of the proceedings, and none I've worked with yet use CDs). Feed this directly from the mixer.
- a redundant/backup recording device. I use a Sony DVDirect VRD-MC10. (It even has a tiny video monitor on the top).
- a solid-neutral-colored portable background. I have 1 gray and 1 sky-like blue, both 5'x7'.
- gaffers tape
Those items, a camera, and a tripod are the bare essentials.

Other things to consider, but aren't/may not be necessary:
- small, external video monitor maybe 5" or 7". If you're recording SD to mini-DV, I'm pretty sure there are perfectly usable ones for $ 300 or less.
- a multi-function timer to keep track of the various recording media like DVD, audio tape, mini-DV tape.
Be sure to use high-quality tapes, and check the owners manual for your cam; some cams are not made to use 83 min. tapes because they're too thin for the tape mechanism to work properly and can cause a jam. I know 1 guy who only records in LP mode. Something I've never done, but it works for him.

The biggest pita with recording to mini-DV tape is the time required for capture. In my experience, attorneys want either a playable DVD, or a data-DVD with an mpeg file on it. I've never turned my original tapes over to an attorney.

Note this: I haven't run across it myself, but the word I get from others in the field is that attorneys are slowly beginning to look more for "certified" court videographers. (At least in my neck of the woods). Some folks argue the value of such "certification", but be aware of that. I've even heard of at least1 case where an attorney refused to hire someone for lack of certification, and another case where an attorney stated at the dep that he would be objecting to the use of any video because the videographer was not "certified". I want to emphasize that these rare instances were in my "neck of the woods", and may not exist in other geographic regions; perhaps it's spreading, though very slowly. At least in my State, there is no court-recognized "certification" or "license", but every now and then you might see something in the press or a blog where 1 or both of the 2 most popular certifying orgs are making efforts to require certification.

Last item might be a warning; I'm not sure. In the early days of, I think, both the Panasonic AC-130 and AC-160, there were complaints that the date-time stamp appeared way to close to the center of the screen, or were clipped of the "seconds" when in a particular recording mode. Those cams had to be shipped back to Panasonic for a special fix of some kind. I believe the fix was free, but you were without the camera while it was being fixed. Check that out, particularly if you end up getting a used one, because I don't know if the fix has been built-in to the manufacturing process or still requires shipment back to Panasonic.

It can be a very competitive field, which seems to be getting more so every day. I'd encourage you to not undercut others on pricing; find a price within the market range and stick to it.

Hope this helps, and good luck.

Re: Legal Deposition Camera Recommendations
 

I agree about the Shure M367, definitely a workhorse. Hard to find but sometimes on ebay, which is where I got mine 3-4 yearrs ago. Mics, just wired XLR. I got some Shures , good quality. As Denis said don't go too cheap. And yeah NO Wireless. Not just security, but you need something relaible. With cell phones, wifi, and high rise offices downtown you don't want wireless interference in the middle of it. Carry & setting up 6 mics & XLR cables (You'll need 10ft cables for each for the loooong conference tables) is the biggest pain for me. Funny you say that Denis about the PZM. I interviewed for a place a couple years ago, a startup, who said they were going to use one, and forget about a bunch of cables, one mic bam! done. Anyway I didn't get the job but always wondered how they made out with that. Never see or hear much about them, so I'm assuming they folded or still struggling to grow.

It's a pretty hard niche to break into. Just knowing lawyers won't cut it. Most big firms already have a long term relationship with a company or 'their guy'. And working on large, multi million dollar settlement cases they're not going to abondon them for someone new. Just cause they can be a little cheaper or have better, newer, state of the art equipment. OP I too struggling with what to buy. I finally pulled the trigger on stuff. Looking back, what to buy is about .01% of the getting up & running and obtaining business part. Hope you have some forsight for step 2 already. My advice is at least buy some smaller stuff to get the ball rolling (XLR cables, DVD burner, tripod, grey backdrop), then you'll feel your almost there and will more quickly buy the cam & mics.

Re: Legal Deposition Camera Recommendations
 

Have a look at a Canon XF100. Compact, professional, in your price range, XLR inputs, can burn in date, timecode and do redundant recording (two cf cards simultaneously) not just for security but gives you an original for each for each party if you need it so there's no question of tampering. Almost as if the camera was made for this type of work.

Re: Legal Deposition Camera Recommendations
 

** Regarding the wireless; that's what I was thinking too; just wanted to hear it from somebody that has done depo's. Ten or more lawyers at once?! Wow, that's a lot of wires/cables in the room. I can see where a safety lock / tie down would come in handy; as you wouldn't want one the the "sharks" to suddenly get up and yank the wire/cable connected to the mixer board!!

** Wouldn't it be safer to utilize mics that DON'T have battery power?

Re: Legal Deposition Camera Recommendations
 

Andrew,
to go Off topic for a moment, I emailed you earlier not sure if you got..Shoot me an email to don@donbloomvideoservices.com and I'll send the information about my PD150 and 170 along with some pics.

Re: Legal Deposition Camera Recommendations
 

You don't place mics on all of the layers present in the room - as discussed earlier, you need FOUR lavaliers for witness, two lawyers, and yourself. If more lawyers are present, you use a boundary mic to pic them all up.

And I would never call attorneys "sharks" - they will be your clients, those who write the check! I suggest you learn to respect them.

A AA battery lasts a year or more in an XLR preamp - change it when you change your clock and you're safe. Of course it's better to use phantom power from the mixer when available, but sometimes you may not have a mixer - think field recording out in the boonies at the site of a motor vehicle accident for example.

Re: Legal Deposition Camera Recommendations
 

Ervin, it was just in "good humor" here!!


Please don't assume I don't know how to "respect" lawyers or others. I do. I treat others as how I would want to be treated ..... with courteous respect.

Re: Legal Deposition Camera Recommendations
 

Sharks are the nicest thing I call most lawyers including my own. Of course he get's me back with his bill but in the meantime everytime time I see him I yell shark week!
relax, humor is good for the soul!

Re: Legal Deposition Camera Recommendations
 

Just wanted to extend my gratitude to all of you for sharing your knowledge, insights and advice; I really appreciate it.

And now on to doing more research in this field!!

Again, thanks to all of you!!

Re: Legal Deposition Camera Recommendations
 

Andrew, I have an XL2--similar build to the XL1 and I noticed in the user manual for the XL2, page 83, are instructions for how to engage this setting. The manual even cites, "...this is ideal for surveillance and law enforcement use." And to the degree that--as has been pointed out--most courts are still in the SD era, I may be able to get a bit more use out of my XL2! ;-)

Re: Legal Deposition Camera Recommendations
 

Hey Terry, thanks for the tip BUT .....

.... I think this might be a feature exclusive to the XL2. I just went to the Canon website and looked up the XL1 manual and it states:

"A data code, containing the date and time the recording was made and other camera data (shutter speed and exposure settings) is automatically recorded on a special data section of the tape."

... then reading further down the page, it states:

"If a recording made on XL1 is played back on a different DV camcorder, the data code may not be displayed correctly."


Is this what you were referring to? If so, then yes that'd be great ... but I don't know if the clients (attorneys/lawyers) will accept that. My impression is that this data needs to be seen while recording the depo. Maybe others here can chime in on this.

Re: Legal Deposition Camera Recommendations
 

Hmmmmmmm...that sounds a little iffy ("...the data code may not be displayed properly.") for the XL1. It was what I was referring to, but that little wrinkle in the XL1 may render it unusable for legal work. Sorry, Andrew...thought I might've found something to help you.

~TRW

Re: Legal Deposition Camera Recommendations
 

I think I recall something too, about the code being sent out. Maybe via firewire it burns, but Component cables it doesn't.

My biggest fear with Canon is again whether it displays seconds. Doesn't sound like that critical an issue, but if all other depo videographers show HH:MM:SS and you only show HH:MM it'd be a slight against you. Might as well try to avoid it, unless you can confirm for sure a certain Canon model can display it. I couldn't.

Re: Legal Deposition Camera Recommendations
 

No worries Terry; just making sure that I wasn't mis-understanding the manual!!

Re: Legal Deposition Camera Recommendations
 

Ditto here on that David!!