Burning a wooden shack in the forest? at DVinfo.net

Jacques E. Bouchard · February 3rd, 2009, 01:55 PM

I need to burn an old wooden shack (20 X 30, one story) in the forest. However, I have neither the resources nor the budget to build a real shack and burn it for real (the land owner won't risk his trees). How realistic is the CGI solution? If we build the shack ourselves and make it look like charred remains, how easy will it be to add flames in post?

I've seen some pretty bad CGI fires, but I guess I wouldn't recognize the really good ones as fake (which is what would make them good ;-) ). Are there links to videos on the web showing this effect done convincingly?

Aric Mannion · February 3rd, 2009, 03:41 PM

Don't use CGI flames if you want a believable look. Detonation Films might have something readily available for you to order or maybe Artbeats - Royalty Free HD Stock Footage for the Creative Professional
Overlaying real footage has surprisingly good results.

Jacques E. Bouchard · February 3rd, 2009, 07:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aric Mannion

Don't use CGI flames if you want a believable look. Detonation Films might have something readily available for you to order or maybe Artbeats - Royalty Free HD Stock Footage for the Creative Professional
Overlaying real footage has surprisingly good results.

I looked at some videos on the net, and I agree, CGI is the worst solution. Some quick & dirty vids using overlays showed real promises, I think that hiring a talented FX guy and shooting the structure made to look burned out would yield the best results.

J.

Aric Mannion · February 4th, 2009, 10:05 AM

Use a tripod shots and you will have a lot of options later.

Jason Robinson · February 10th, 2009, 04:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aric Mannion

Use a tripod shots and you will have a lot of options later.

by that I assume you mean that if the camera is locked down, it is easier to composite in footage than if the cam is bouncing all over.

Mike Watkins · February 19th, 2009, 09:52 PM

to burn in the forest, and no one was there to see it....

What if you just had a smoldering shack, and let the audience fill in the idea of the flames? Maybe reveal a shack that just burned down? this could allow for the use of small -controllable flames if actual flames were needed...

Just thinking from a cheap mindset.

Mike W.

Jacques E. Bouchard · February 20th, 2009, 02:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike Watkins

to burn in the forest, and no one was there to see it....

"...would it still need to be budgeted?" ;-)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike Watkins

What if you just had a smoldering shack, and let the audience fill in the idea of the flames? Maybe reveal a shack that just burned down? this could allow for the use of small -controllable flames if actual flames were needed...

I can't have any flames at all (it might be set on a maple grove, and the land owner won't want to risk the tree$), but I do need to show the structure being consumed by the fires of hell (literally).

J.

Emma Coats · March 2nd, 2009, 01:00 PM

This is kind of involved, but you could build a 1/3 or 1/4 scale miniature of the shack and burn THAT... easier to control than burning the real one, and you could probably get away with not showing very much of the surroundings.

Jack Walker · March 2nd, 2009, 02:04 PM

Regarding real fire, my suggestion is not to light so much as a match without full permits, insurance, trained crew, fire brigade and any and all other requirements outlined in the the law.

A fire getting out of hand is a serious criminal offense, possibly leading to manslaughter charges if someone dies as a result of the fire. The implications of thousands of acres of destroyed forest and property are also serious.

Jacques E. Bouchard · March 2nd, 2009, 09:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jack Walker

Regarding real fire, my suggestion is not to light so much as a match without full permits, insurance, trained crew, fire brigade and any and all other requirements outlined in the the law.

A fire getting out of hand is a serious criminal offense, possibly leading to manslaughter charges if someone dies as a result of the fire. The implications of thousands of acres of destroyed forest and property are also serious.

Precisely why I'm trying to do it as an FX.

J.

Andy Graham · March 4th, 2009, 04:18 PM

I'm with Emma on this one, if you build a model (the bigger the better the flames will scale) and place it well away from his trees and use a bit of forced perspective filming from in amongst the trees (like 50 yards back or something) it should be pretty effective. A model like that is simple and cheap to build and personally id shoot at the telephoto end of the lense for the depth of field.

Only thing stopping you here is your diy skills

Andy.

PS. I know Jack is the word of reason here and is just looking out for your safety and to any other people reading with the same idea as you but the truth is you have to be hollywood to afford the list of requirements he made.........thats why we call it guerilla filmmaking.......crazy not stupid (i'll play the little devil on your other shoulder)

Jacques E. Bouchard · March 4th, 2009, 07:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andy Graham

I'm with Emma on this one, if you build a model (the bigger the better the flames will scale) and place it well away from his trees and use a bit of forced perspective filming from in amongst the trees (like 50 yards back or something) it should be pretty effective. A model like that is simple and cheap to build and personally id shoot at the telephoto end of the lense for the depth of field.

Thanks, the model is a viable alternative.

J.

Kent Frost · March 4th, 2009, 08:16 PM

What about tossing a smoke bomb in the shack? Might make overlaying stock fire footage easier.

Noah Cook · March 9th, 2009, 07:58 PM

Personally, I would burn a model against greenscreen and comp it into a wide forest shot for the wide, and get closeups and pans across the model as it burned. I would also make sure to overcrank everything, I've found that fire in miniature looks more realistic in slow mo for some reason.

The downside to this is that fire and smoke is hell to get a clean chromakey pull from. I don't know what you're shooting on but I wouldn't try this with HDV or lower.

That's assuming you can't get away with the forced perspective trick that Andy mentioned.

Marco Leavitt · March 19th, 2009, 12:31 PM

My vote is with the model, green screen approach. If you do it outdoors in full sun I'll bet you won't even need to light it.

February 3rd, 2009, 01:55 PM	#1
Jacques E. Bouchard Major Player Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Montreal, Canada Posts: 442	Burning a wooden shack in the forest? I need to burn an old wooden shack (20 X 30, one story) in the forest. However, I have neither the resources nor the budget to build a real shack and burn it for real (the land owner won't risk his trees). How realistic is the CGI solution? If we build the shack ourselves and make it look like charred remains, how easy will it be to add flames in post? I've seen some pretty bad CGI fires, but I guess I wouldn't recognize the really good ones as fake (which is what would make them good ;-) ). Are there links to videos on the web showing this effect done convincingly?

February 19th, 2009, 09:52 PM	#6
Mike Watkins Regular Crew Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Burleson, TX Posts: 131	if a shack were... to burn in the forest, and no one was there to see it.... What if you just had a smoldering shack, and let the audience fill in the idea of the flames? Maybe reveal a shack that just burned down? this could allow for the use of small -controllable flames if actual flames were needed... Just thinking from a cheap mindset. Mike W. __________________ XHA1, FCS2, Shake 4.1, 501HDV

March 4th, 2009, 04:18 PM	#11
Andy Graham Major Player Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Lanark,Scotland Posts: 736	I'm with Emma on this one, if you build a model (the bigger the better the flames will scale) and place it well away from his trees and use a bit of forced perspective filming from in amongst the trees (like 50 yards back or something) it should be pretty effective. A model like that is simple and cheap to build and personally id shoot at the telephoto end of the lense for the depth of field. Only thing stopping you here is your diy skills Andy. PS. I know Jack is the word of reason here and is just looking out for your safety and to any other people reading with the same idea as you but the truth is you have to be hollywood to afford the list of requirements he made.........thats why we call it guerilla filmmaking.......crazy not stupid (i'll play the little devil on your other shoulder) __________________ Actor: "where would that light be coming from?" DP: "same place as the music" -Andrew Lesnie-

March 4th, 2009, 08:16 PM	#13
Kent Frost Regular Crew Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Springfield, Missouri Posts: 117	What about tossing a smoke bomb in the shack? Might make overlaying stock fire footage easier. __________________ "Your world is all these elements; of light and sound, of taste, smell, and touch. Woven together in many dimensions on the fabulous loom of your brain. Your brain; the most complicated thing in the world, which you yourself grew...without even thinking about it."

February 3rd, 2009, 03:41 PM	#2
Aric Mannion Major Player Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Boston, Massachusetts Posts: 616	Don't use CGI flames if you want a believable look. Detonation Films might have something readily available for you to order or maybe Artbeats - Royalty Free HD Stock Footage for the Creative Professional Overlaying real footage has surprisingly good results.

February 4th, 2009, 10:05 AM	#4
Aric Mannion Major Player Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Boston, Massachusetts Posts: 616	Use a tripod shots and you will have a lot of options later.

March 2nd, 2009, 01:00 PM	#8
Emma Coats Tourist Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Berkeley, CA Posts: 3	This is kind of involved, but you could build a 1/3 or 1/4 scale miniature of the shack and burn THAT... easier to control than burning the real one, and you could probably get away with not showing very much of the surroundings.

March 2nd, 2009, 02:04 PM	#9
Jack Walker Trustee Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Burbank Posts: 1,811	Regarding real fire, my suggestion is not to light so much as a match without full permits, insurance, trained crew, fire brigade and any and all other requirements outlined in the the law. A fire getting out of hand is a serious criminal offense, possibly leading to manslaughter charges if someone dies as a result of the fire. The implications of thousands of acres of destroyed forest and property are also serious.

March 9th, 2009, 07:58 PM	#14
Noah Cook New Boot Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: MA Posts: 8	Personally, I would burn a model against greenscreen and comp it into a wide forest shot for the wide, and get closeups and pans across the model as it burned. I would also make sure to overcrank everything, I've found that fire in miniature looks more realistic in slow mo for some reason. The downside to this is that fire and smoke is hell to get a clean chromakey pull from. I don't know what you're shooting on but I wouldn't try this with HDV or lower. That's assuming you can't get away with the forced perspective trick that Andy mentioned.

March 19th, 2009, 12:31 PM	#15
Marco Leavitt Inner Circle Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Albany, NY 12210 Posts: 2,652	My vote is with the model, green screen approach. If you do it outdoors in full sun I'll bet you won't even need to light it.