Video as a cheap imitation of film.

Ken Tanaka · September 26th, 2003, 12:32 PM

To bastardize Marshall McLuhan's title handle, "The Medium is NOT the Message". This "lecturer" clearly sees the inexorable march of digital technologies into film's domain. Even Kodak, the great bastion of film technology, is giving ground to this march. Their stock lost nearly 18% of its value yesterday as they announced that they will, in essence, refocus their attention from consumer film to digital products (a bit too little, too late in many investors' minds).

Fifty years from now some lecturer, perhaps one of us, will stand before a classroom of eager, young faces and bemoan the gradual loss of two-dimensional digital imaging. We'll wail that the trend towards immersive, holographic entertainment chokes viewers' imaginations, that it does not have the richness of imaging detail that digital 2-D featured, etc.

Time and progress wait for nobody. Buy the fellow a drink (being careful to take note of any post-production requirements he may imminently face) and bring him into the fold by sharing some plug-ins with him.

Rob Belics · September 26th, 2003, 01:04 PM

That drop might be due to cutting dividends by 72% but I've never understood Kodak's management anyway. The WSJ doesn't either.

Ken Tanaka · September 26th, 2003, 01:55 PM

(off-topic side note): Kodak cut their dividend to channel cash in that new direction.

Ignacio Rodriguez · September 26th, 2003, 04:51 PM

About a year ago I read this book, by a french philosopher, don't remember the name right now, a great thinker. The point is, he spoke about how society is so keen on speed, how technology propels us in a direction that has to do with making things go faster and faster. We human beings have limits, we cannot just go on and on in that direction, and I think if there is a lesson to learn from filmmaking it is how a work can have this great meaningfulness because time is put into it's making. Let us not loose that.

John Hudson · September 26th, 2003, 05:37 PM

Speaking of Blair Witch.

The reason this film succeeded was the freakin millions of dollars spent on advertising and hype.

It was an interesting concept, although I didn't really dig it. Did it open up some new ideas? yeah, it did. But as an example of what can be accomplised using VIDEO, I think it is one of the worst examples.

The film that is being released called "In this World" is done with VIDEO and it looks epic. I mean it looks really good. I'm babbling now, leaving work, going to get my son.

Robert Jackson · September 26th, 2003, 05:50 PM

<<<-- Originally posted by Ignacio Rodriguez : The point is, he spoke about how society is so keen on speed, how technology propels us in a direction that has to do with making things go faster and faster. We human beings have limits, we cannot just go on and on in that direction, and I think if there is a lesson to learn from filmmaking it is how a work can have this great meaningfulness because time is put into it's making. Let us not loose that. -->>>

See, that was part of the lecturer's point. He was talking about how he used ProTools to do the audio for one of his projects and the work went too fast. He said he was on autopilot through most of the process and it frightened him. He went on to say that during an appearance on some television show Speilberg said that he likes to edit on a flatbed because it's more time-consuming and it gives him time to think about what he's doing.

Me? I'm no Oscar-winning filmmaker, but I just like to take breaks and walk away from editing from time to time. A cup of tea. A walk. A cigarette. I used to work at a music video station where I shot and edited short "comedy" bits and I'd invariably get home from work and think of something I wanted to try as I was falling asleep, so I'd get back in the car and go back to the edit suite in shorts, a T-shirt and Birkenstocks. Thankfully I edit about 20 feet from where I sleep anymore, so when those brink-of-slumber ideas dawn on me I don't have to go out looking silly.

I agree to a point, though. If the process becomes so expedient that you don't have time to think about it too much there's always the chance that you'll make a film that only comes from the most superfcial levels of your consciousness. The meditative quality of a craft can really bring inspiration to the surface. That doesn't mean that sitting at a flatbed is the only way to find your muse, though. Sitting in a hot tub with a frozen drink on a starry night and turning things over in your mind seems to work, too. ;-)

Steven-Marc Couchouron · September 26th, 2003, 06:57 PM

From another Rodriguez: ;-)

Another thing Rodriguez is zealous about is shooting on high-definition digital film. "I shot a bunch of movies on film but I hate film!" he cries. So why do so many directors still use it, I ask. "Because they're stupid," he replies, the note of petulance sounding a bit like a stroppy teenager frustrated with the idiocy of the adult world.

Just an excerpt from
http://enjoyment.independent.co.uk/f...p?story=447050

Federico Dib · September 26th, 2003, 07:26 PM

THE STORY PEOPLE... do whatever you can or like with whatever media it´s available to you... Take as long as you want/can/need... (I had a teacher that´s been making a movie for 8 years... ????)... Do whatever it takes and suits you to tell THE STORY...

But whatever you do, don´t lecture people on which is the better way to do something... or which media is better... or how long should I take... Or how lame are those using video.. or how "artsy" are those using 16mm, or whatever...
I don´t care if you are Robert Rodríguez or Alfred Hitchcock... don´t tell me that your way is the only way... that sounds like religious fanatism...

There´s plenty of ways of doing things.. of course some work better than others depending on your goals... And lot´s have proven to be good enough that they become standards..

One thing is for sure... video is making it a lot easier for some of us that just don´t have any other option to give it a try... Or should I spend my whole life sending Scripts waiting for the "chance"... no way..

Enough said.. give me good stories.. I haven´t seen many of those lately anywhere...

John Hudson · September 26th, 2003, 08:20 PM

Well put.

It's like arguing over music/art/literature styles.

Rob Belics · September 27th, 2003, 10:16 AM

You need to read the book "Art and Filmmaking" by I.P. Daley

Rob Lohman · October 5th, 2003, 08:10 PM

Perhaps someone should show him 28 Days Later or one of those
other fine pieces of DV stuff people here turn out every time!

Things like this get me quite sad. Know why? Because he takes
way too much for granted. Take the film industry here in Holland
for example (or the lack thereof). Whe have a filmschool here
which I visited once to see if it was something. From watching
people talk and seeing the things they required I could easily
see they were all in the same "box" so to speak. All the same
mindset, rules to follow etc.

If I ever want to make movies here I'd have a very hard time
getting into that filmschool. Then I'd be learning to make movies
THEY want to see (artsy probably instead of really interesting)
and then start to work somewhere low down in the chain if
I get to work in the business at all which releases only a couple
of movies which in my opinion aren't that great.

Guys like this need to learn that not every place on earth
works like Hollywood. I want to make movies of my own and
the best way (in my opinion) to do that NOW is to do it myself
with my video equipment. And one thing I know for sure is that
a lof of people have commented on how GOOD my episode for
Lady X looked (only talking about the look here) and that
definitely did NOT originate on film. Enough said about that.

We all want to be creative and people like that just want to
hold you back (for some reason, probably fear). As pointed out
were would innovation be if we all were like sheep. I say
be creative, be scary and lets make some beautiful movies/films
whatever!

Robert Jackson · October 5th, 2003, 08:13 PM

Actually, he talked about that film in particular and said that the poster should have carried a warning that the images contained within originated on an Atari 2600. Then he did a little dance to show how characters moved on old video game systems.

Personally, I thought the ratty image quality in 28 Days Later was great. I thought it worked with the story really well.

<<<-- Originally posted by Rob Lohman : Perhaps someone should show him 28 Days Later or one of those
other fine pieces of DV stuff people here turn out every time!
-->>>

Charles Papert · October 5th, 2003, 11:43 PM

"28 Days Later" was a fine film, using DV was an interesting artistic choice, and I can't wait to see how great it will look on DVD.

That guy was a friggin' loser. Sorry.

It's that kind of thinking that caused me to drop out of NYU film school after my freshman year. Never looked back. Never missed it.

John Hudson · October 6th, 2003, 10:41 AM

My little half-brother wants to make films one day as well as I do. (Can't imagine where he gets it?)

He is savings his money (well, my moms money) to go to NY Film Academy Workshop in LA next summer. It is going to cost him over $3000.00 (not including food; lodging, etc).

I told him : Hank. (Yes, his name is Hank; after Hank Aaron) take that cash and buy a camera (Xl1s or DVX100; or whatever else is on market next summer) and start making films.

Does he listen? No.

Just thought I'd add that to your "Dropping out of film school" comment. I personally think film school is a waste of time, er, money.

John Hudson · October 6th, 2003, 10:43 AM

<<<-- Originally posted by Charles Papert : "28 Days Later" was a fine film, using DV was an interesting artistic choice, and I can't wait to see how great it will look on DVD. -->>>

Me too! I cannot wait for the DVD. It will be great. And I'm a sucker for the zombie film. I'm currently writing a script (one of a few I have going) on my own take on the zombie genre.

September 26th, 2003, 12:32 PM	#16
Ken Tanaka Retired DV Info Net Almunus Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 6,943	To bastardize Marshall McLuhan's title handle, "The Medium is NOT the Message". This "lecturer" clearly sees the inexorable march of digital technologies into film's domain. Even Kodak, the great bastion of film technology, is giving ground to this march. Their stock lost nearly 18% of its value yesterday as they announced that they will, in essence, refocus their attention from consumer film to digital products (a bit too little, too late in many investors' minds). Fifty years from now some lecturer, perhaps one of us, will stand before a classroom of eager, young faces and bemoan the gradual loss of two-dimensional digital imaging. We'll wail that the trend towards immersive, holographic entertainment chokes viewers' imaginations, that it does not have the richness of imaging detail that digital 2-D featured, etc. Time and progress wait for nobody. Buy the fellow a drink (being careful to take note of any post-production requirements he may imminently face) and bring him into the fold by sharing some plug-ins with him. __________________ Lady X Films: A lady with a boring wardrobe...and a global mission. Hey, you don't have enough stuff! Buy with confidence from our sponsors. Hand-picked as the best in the business...Really! See some of my work one frame at a time: www.KenTanaka.com

September 26th, 2003, 01:55 PM	#18
Ken Tanaka Retired DV Info Net Almunus Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 6,943	(off-topic side note): Kodak cut their dividend to channel cash in that new direction. __________________ Lady X Films: A lady with a boring wardrobe...and a global mission. Hey, you don't have enough stuff! Buy with confidence from our sponsors. Hand-picked as the best in the business...Really! See some of my work one frame at a time: www.KenTanaka.com

September 26th, 2003, 04:51 PM	#19
Ignacio Rodriguez Contributor Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Santiago, Chile Posts: 932	The speed thing rings a bell... About a year ago I read this book, by a french philosopher, don't remember the name right now, a great thinker. The point is, he spoke about how society is so keen on speed, how technology propels us in a direction that has to do with making things go faster and faster. We human beings have limits, we cannot just go on and on in that direction, and I think if there is a lesson to learn from filmmaking it is how a work can have this great meaningfulness because time is put into it's making. Let us not loose that. __________________ Ignacio Rodríguez in the third world. @micronauta on Twitter. Main hardware: brain, eyes, hands.

September 26th, 2003, 05:50 PM	#21
Robert Jackson Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Santa Rosa, CA Posts: 390	Re: The speed thing rings a bell... <<<-- Originally posted by Ignacio Rodriguez : The point is, he spoke about how society is so keen on speed, how technology propels us in a direction that has to do with making things go faster and faster. We human beings have limits, we cannot just go on and on in that direction, and I think if there is a lesson to learn from filmmaking it is how a work can have this great meaningfulness because time is put into it's making. Let us not loose that. -->>> See, that was part of the lecturer's point. He was talking about how he used ProTools to do the audio for one of his projects and the work went too fast. He said he was on autopilot through most of the process and it frightened him. He went on to say that during an appearance on some television show Speilberg said that he likes to edit on a flatbed because it's more time-consuming and it gives him time to think about what he's doing. Me? I'm no Oscar-winning filmmaker, but I just like to take breaks and walk away from editing from time to time. A cup of tea. A walk. A cigarette. I used to work at a music video station where I shot and edited short "comedy" bits and I'd invariably get home from work and think of something I wanted to try as I was falling asleep, so I'd get back in the car and go back to the edit suite in shorts, a T-shirt and Birkenstocks. Thankfully I edit about 20 feet from where I sleep anymore, so when those brink-of-slumber ideas dawn on me I don't have to go out looking silly. I agree to a point, though. If the process becomes so expedient that you don't have time to think about it too much there's always the chance that you'll make a film that only comes from the most superfcial levels of your consciousness. The meditative quality of a craft can really bring inspiration to the surface. That doesn't mean that sitting at a flatbed is the only way to find your muse, though. Sitting in a hot tub with a frozen drink on a starry night and turning things over in your mind seems to work, too. ;-)

September 26th, 2003, 06:57 PM	#22
Steven-Marc Couchouron Regular Crew Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Paris, France Posts: 110 Images: 5	From another Rodriguez: ;-) Another thing Rodriguez is zealous about is shooting on high-definition digital film. "I shot a bunch of movies on film but I hate film!" he cries. So why do so many directors still use it, I ask. "Because they're stupid," he replies, the note of petulance sounding a bit like a stroppy teenager frustrated with the idiocy of the adult world. Just an excerpt from http://enjoyment.independent.co.uk/f...p?story=447050 __________________ SMCproductions.com

September 26th, 2003, 01:04 PM	#17
Rob Belics Major Player Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: St. Louis, MO Posts: 581	That drop might be due to cutting dividends by 72% but I've never understood Kodak's management anyway. The WSJ doesn't either.

September 26th, 2003, 05:37 PM	#20
John Hudson Major Player Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: 32° 44' N 117° 10' W Posts: 820	Speaking of Blair Witch. The reason this film succeeded was the freakin millions of dollars spent on advertising and hype. It was an interesting concept, although I didn't really dig it. Did it open up some new ideas? yeah, it did. But as an example of what can be accomplised using VIDEO, I think it is one of the worst examples. The film that is being released called "In this World" is done with VIDEO and it looks epic. I mean it looks really good. I'm babbling now, leaving work, going to get my son.

September 26th, 2003, 07:26 PM	#23
Federico Dib Major Player Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Barcelona Posts: 312	THE STORY PEOPLE... do whatever you can or like with whatever media it´s available to you... Take as long as you want/can/need... (I had a teacher that´s been making a movie for 8 years... ????)... Do whatever it takes and suits you to tell THE STORY... But whatever you do, don´t lecture people on which is the better way to do something... or which media is better... or how long should I take... Or how lame are those using video.. or how "artsy" are those using 16mm, or whatever... I don´t care if you are Robert Rodríguez or Alfred Hitchcock... don´t tell me that your way is the only way... that sounds like religious fanatism... There´s plenty of ways of doing things.. of course some work better than others depending on your goals... And lot´s have proven to be good enough that they become standards.. One thing is for sure... video is making it a lot easier for some of us that just don´t have any other option to give it a try... Or should I spend my whole life sending Scripts waiting for the "chance"... no way.. Enough said.. give me good stories.. I haven´t seen many of those lately anywhere... __________________ Messenger Boy : The Thessalonian you're fighting, he's the biggest man I've ever seen. I wouldn't want to fight him. Achilles : That is why no one will remember your name.

September 26th, 2003, 08:20 PM	#24
John Hudson Major Player Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: 32° 44' N 117° 10' W Posts: 820	Well put. It's like arguing over music/art/literature styles.

September 27th, 2003, 10:16 AM	#25
Rob Belics Major Player Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: St. Louis, MO Posts: 581	You need to read the book "Art and Filmmaking" by I.P. Daley

October 5th, 2003, 08:10 PM	#26
Rob Lohman RED Code Chef Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Holland Posts: 12,514	Perhaps someone should show him 28 Days Later or one of those other fine pieces of DV stuff people here turn out every time! Things like this get me quite sad. Know why? Because he takes way too much for granted. Take the film industry here in Holland for example (or the lack thereof). Whe have a filmschool here which I visited once to see if it was something. From watching people talk and seeing the things they required I could easily see they were all in the same "box" so to speak. All the same mindset, rules to follow etc. If I ever want to make movies here I'd have a very hard time getting into that filmschool. Then I'd be learning to make movies THEY want to see (artsy probably instead of really interesting) and then start to work somewhere low down in the chain if I get to work in the business at all which releases only a couple of movies which in my opinion aren't that great. Guys like this need to learn that not every place on earth works like Hollywood. I want to make movies of my own and the best way (in my opinion) to do that NOW is to do it myself with my video equipment. And one thing I know for sure is that a lof of people have commented on how GOOD my episode for Lady X looked (only talking about the look here) and that definitely did NOT originate on film. Enough said about that. We all want to be creative and people like that just want to hold you back (for some reason, probably fear). As pointed out were would innovation be if we all were like sheep. I say be creative, be scary and lets make some beautiful movies/films whatever! __________________ Rob Lohman, visuar@iname.com DV Info Wrangler & RED Code Chef Join the DV Challenge \| Lady X Search DVinfo.net for quick answers \| Buy from the best: DVinfo.net sponsors

October 5th, 2003, 08:13 PM	#27
Robert Jackson Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Santa Rosa, CA Posts: 390	Actually, he talked about that film in particular and said that the poster should have carried a warning that the images contained within originated on an Atari 2600. Then he did a little dance to show how characters moved on old video game systems. Personally, I thought the ratty image quality in 28 Days Later was great. I thought it worked with the story really well. <<<-- Originally posted by Rob Lohman : Perhaps someone should show him 28 Days Later or one of those other fine pieces of DV stuff people here turn out every time! -->>>

October 5th, 2003, 11:43 PM	#28
Charles Papert Wrangler Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 6,810	"28 Days Later" was a fine film, using DV was an interesting artistic choice, and I can't wait to see how great it will look on DVD. That guy was a friggin' loser. Sorry. It's that kind of thinking that caused me to drop out of NYU film school after my freshman year. Never looked back. Never missed it. __________________ Charles Papert www.charlespapert.com

October 6th, 2003, 10:41 AM	#29
John Hudson Major Player Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: 32° 44' N 117° 10' W Posts: 820	My little half-brother wants to make films one day as well as I do. (Can't imagine where he gets it?) He is savings his money (well, my moms money) to go to NY Film Academy Workshop in LA next summer. It is going to cost him over $3000.00 (not including food; lodging, etc). I told him : Hank. (Yes, his name is Hank; after Hank Aaron) take that cash and buy a camera (Xl1s or DVX100; or whatever else is on market next summer) and start making films. Does he listen? No. Just thought I'd add that to your "Dropping out of film school" comment. I personally think film school is a waste of time, er, money.

October 6th, 2003, 10:43 AM	#30
John Hudson Major Player Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: 32° 44' N 117° 10' W Posts: 820	<<<-- Originally posted by Charles Papert : "28 Days Later" was a fine film, using DV was an interesting artistic choice, and I can't wait to see how great it will look on DVD. -->>> Me too! I cannot wait for the DVD. It will be great. And I'm a sucker for the zombie film. I'm currently writing a script (one of a few I have going) on my own take on the zombie genre.