Guns! Guns! How to pull off a realistic killing ?
 

So i'm shooting a little webisode in a couple days and i'm looking for advice on the best way to pull this off. It's a quick and simple killing: couple shots with a handgun. Guy goes up to a door, kills the girl.

Two options (that I know of):

During some of my research i've found non-guns which don't require permits, which look interesting. I'm not looking for squids or blank shooting guns as they require permits.

Going to sporting goods store buying a BB gun then doing it in post. I have limited FX experience. Can I recreate something cool in motion ? Really the killing doesn't need to be 100% as its a black comedy. Not a dark drama.

Its been tough finding links or people with experience in this field. Any advice for a first timer gun slinger user would be great. Thanks!

PS - also any advice on movie blood is great. thanks!

I don't have any immediate ideas for the most realistic firearm prop to use, but with clever editing, the proper angles, and appropriate use of sound effects, you can come up with a very compelling presentation of the murderous act.

For some examples of blood splatter effects, check out Detonation Films,

Detonation Films

Some of their effects are free and downloadable.

Also, check out Film Riot,

Revision3 > Film Riot

for some very entertaining video effects tutorials.

-Jon

These folks have what looks like very realistic looking replicas, totally NON FIRING (solid barrel, no blanks), but have some moving parts.

Star Wars Attic - Products

The key to making something like this work is no "lingering" on any shots, very fast paced editing with many "cuts" to fill out the time. Muzzle flash or smoke can be added but again in very brief, sudden short clip so the eye does not have a chance to "linger" on anything.

There are video sites out there that have videos of actual shootings, and they are nothing like what you see on broadcast TV.

You want real, check those out.

Go to the nearest dollar store and get a revolver or something, probably will have orange plastic on the tip. Wrap it in some black electrical tape. For the muzzle flash, you can put that in during post.

A small shot of compressed air on the face (if its a head shot) will make the actor flinch and also look a little like the blast from the gun (there is a concussive shock wave that comes from the end of a gun, will make clothing and hair distort quickly for a very short instant).

In fact, setting up an air hose inside the gun is a more effective gag than worrying about a pyro show.

Again, air is your friend for things like splatter. Take a rubber/vinyl kid's ball, maybe the size of softball, put a large tube into it, glue the joint. Compress it a little, fill the end of the tube with your fake blood/brain matter. Let the ball go back to it's natural round state, the gore will suck down the tube somewhat.

Then when the head shot comes, the end of the tube is hidden in the hair, points out to a wall. 'Fire' the gun and step on the ball. There's yer splatter.

Think about a quick edit to another angle right after the shot, might help sell the scene.

Since nobody else has stepped up to address this aspect of this post I will.

Yes, you can easily learn the techniques of portraying this kind of stupid violence in realistic terms.

But why the hell would you?

Do you have any idea how unbelievably rare this course of action is in real life?

Years, possibly decades go by without the kind of "quick and simple killing" you seek to portray. And if you doubt that, call your local police department, talk to public relations and ask them the last time they found a gunshot girl at the FRONT door implying no discussion, no fight, just a random open the door and get blown away. No talk, no argument in progress, just: Hello? - BANG.

I can GUARANTEE you that you'll have to search worldwide and even then, you'll find VERY few instances of something like this if any. (And I'm basing that guarantee on years of discussions with friend who's a local homicide detective and who has ready access to the NCIC and bunches of other databases on criminal activity.)

So essentially, you're going to infect the minds of potentially THOUSANDS of others - just like the "movie violence" industry before you - with fear. All based on a LIE.

Yes, there's real violence out there. But it's not like you're discussing in this scene.

My advice, RESIST the temptation to propagate FALSEHOOD like this. It's not simple fiction. It's destructive modeling of behavior. Cuz some idiot out there will see it at age 12 and it will add to his belief that it's OK to walk up and shoot people. And it's not.

If you're going to portray violence. And there's NOTHING wrong with that. RESPECT it. Make it honest, and in order to do that - you need to understand how violence actually happens. And it rarely, if ever, happens as your post portrays.

(I'll retract, of course, if you can search ANYWHERE on the net and come up with a real instance of this - a girl blown away by a handgun at her front door - that even loosely resembles what you're going to portray. But I won't hold my breath)

IMO, the power of image crafting comes with SOME responsibility not to disseminate fear for fear's sake. At least not without thinking about it before hand.

My 2 cents.

If what you are looking for are good prop guns, google "Airsoft" (or search it on E-Bay). They make incredibly realistic air guns which sell at amazingly inexpensive prices. They are so real that when my little production group needed some guns for a short we were working on, we equipped ourselves with a small arsenal for under $100, but they were so damn real looking (and hence VERY DANGEROUS out in public - think of a poor peace officer's response on seeing someone brandishing one) that I refused to keep them at my place, requesting that they be placed in a gun safe at someone elses home.

Yeah, it's amazing what you can pull off with clever shooting. I've used cap guns, rubber prop guns, and a few non-firing replica types, that you could chamber and pull the trigger on and stuff. It really depends on your budget, but searching for prop guns should give you more than enough options.

Thanks all for you feed back. What I found was going to Big 5 and getting a BB gun with compressed air. It has that air pop that was talked about. Looks realistic and I'll work with the actor to 'act' for the recoil.

I really like the ball idea for blood. It will be two shots in the chest. Does that change how ?

As far as the comment for senseless violence. Wow, how can you critique a project without knowing any context or angle ? Thats pretty irresponsible. Not that I feel the need to defend my project, but I will explain some aspects of it. The reason why it's a 'quick' killing is because I don't want the piece to be all about this killing - it's not a Tarintino film, it's a comedy. The focus and social commentary is actually going to be about the Health Care system.
And i'm using various tools as a filmmaker to communicate my msg. Are there other ways, sure - but this is the one I chose.

Thanks for the advice all and i'll let you know how it went!

A couple of points.

First, if you are keeping the firing mechanism active in that BB gun, do not aim it at a person's face. Even compressed air in the wrong spot at very close range can lead to injuries.

Secondly, when the gun comes out, assign one person on your crew to be SOLELY responsible for the BB gun while it is being handled, and that person should have no other duties to perform. That person should know how to operate the mechanism of the BB gun and, most especially, should know how to be ABSOLUTELY 100% CERTAIN there are no BBs or pellets remaining in the gun. (In the real world, if we are using BB guns as props, they are always permanently altered so they cannot load, chamber or fire BBs or pellets in any way.)

Before anyone handles the gun, that crew person should do a safety briefing for ALL cast and crew. (This applies if your crew is 2 people or 200 people.) Everyone present should know the gun is safe and they should be aware of the rules:
- The BB gun is not to be pointed at anyone except the actors in the scene, and only then once both actors have thoroughly inspected it for safety;
- The BB gun is NEVER to be pointed at bystanders under any circumstances;
- The BB gun must remain within the immediate eyesight of the supervising crewmember at all times;
- When finished, the BB gun is to be handed directly back to the person, and is not to leave the set under ANY circumstances;
- If the police show up, put the BB gun on the ground and stand still with your hands fully visible and await further instructions; and,
- Horseplay will NOT be tolerated.

Yes, it's a BB gun; yes, it's a toy. But this is the professional approach, and if you want to be professional in your filmmaking, then be professional in your approach to your tools.

If the BB gun can be seen by any passersby during the scene, you want to notify your local law enforcement agency where and when you will be there, the fact that the scene will be properly supervised and that there will be no blanks or loud noises during filming. It is a good idea to give them a contact phone number on set in case of questions. (A simple letter addressed to the local Chief or the officer in charge a few days in advance should suffice.)

If the scene is VERY visible to the public, it is also a good idea to follow up the letter with a phone call to the police when you begin the scene and a phone call when you are done.

Just be aware that it may be a toy to you, but it can invoke a police response - with potentially bad results. (In certain states or countries, replica firearms are illegal, and the only people who can use them are people in the film business.) If you follow some simple steps in preparation, notification and safety briefing, no one gets hurt, the police won't even show up (they have better things to do) and everyone walks away happy and safe.

My goal in life when doing these scenes is for the entire cast and crew to walk away thinking, "Well, that was easy." (I do this for a living.)

As for the actor simulating the recoil, don't worry about it. It will give you more options in editing if the actor simply holds it out straight. Simulated recoil always ends up looking fake. (Real guns recoil, of course, but it is so brief and fast that the camera wouldn't pick it up much anyway so the most realistic way is to hold it steady.) If you get really fancy, you can photoshop in a slide on a semi-automatic moving back and forth and an empty shell casing being ejected ... and it is much harder to do if the gun has been tossed upward in fake recoil.

As for the gunshot, consider that real gunshots NEVER burst violently out of the front of a target anyway. If a person is shot, they won't even know it for a second or two. There is a sharp tug, a moment of disbelief and then the realization only when they see the blood. If you want to do this real, consider keeping it simple and implying your violence and finality through your story and your acting (which is the way it should always be done.)

It can be as simple as a fake bloodpack under a shirt with a thumbtack taped to the front. They clutch their stomach, look down and see a tiny bit of blood start to seep out their shirt. They have this moment of disbelief and a look of incredulity as the blood seeps through their fingers, and then they crumple to their knees. There is no need for a fancy wound because the entry hole would be so small as to be unnoticeable anyway. (When doing autopsies, doctors sometimes have a VERY hard time finding all the bullet entry points.)

Another way to consider is to not see the violence anyway but to imply it. You see the person walk toward the door with his hand in a pocket - quick flashbacks to jump-cuts where he is getting ready, including putting putting on his coat and slipping a gun in his pocket - pull back to a POV from the side of the house, the inside of the house through a window or the inside of a car while driving past, and use a couple of bright flashes of light to imply the gunshots.

By the way, I am not advocating violence. (It does pay the groceries, however.) I AM advocating doing these scenes SAFELY if you are going to do them.

If I can help any further, ask away. Good luck, have fun and stay safe!

:)

THAT was a useful post.

And precisely accurate.

Never forget Jon-Eric Hexum. Google the name. Somebody on that set figured they were just blanks so it would be OK to be relaxed about them.

I live in Arizona. Guns here are a way of life. I was in NRA training classes on weekends from age 7. And I still see so much INSANITY regarding them that it makes my head spin.

Do not use bb guns!!!!!!!!!!
 

BB guns are NOT toys! In most states (in the US) anything that can launch a projectile is considered a weapon or a firearm and serious legal consequences can result from such being brandished in public. Especially in urban areas.

Do NOT use anything that could launch a projectile. Brandon Lee was killed when shot with a blank firing handgun during the final days of filming "The Crow".

Blank firing gun.

One type of blank for loud report, another for muzzle flash. Each type with a different wad and someon got them mixed up.

Use a totally non firing replica or prop. Even airsoft should be avoided unless rendered inoperable. Even plastic BBs used in those can cause serious injuries.

There is NO excuse WHATSOEVER for allowing even the slightest risk when portraying firearms in films.

I teach Defensive Handgun and am very paranoid when it comes to safety. I also may film a scene or two in which firearms are portrayed. I have the "real thing" available to me but what I will use is a rubber GI .45 1911 molded after one of the Remington Rand 1911's made under contract from the Colt 1911A1 design when Colt could not make enough to fill WWII needs.

There are replicas with slides that can be retracted/"racked" and removable magazines but have solid barrels and no way to even "chamber" anything.

Safety...Safety...Safety! Take no chances!

Good points. Brandon Lee was killed because of a series of contributing factors that led to a real bullet being stuck down the barrel, and a blank being fired behind it.

It all began when the non-union production in North Carolina decided to send the firearms specialist home early to save a few hundred dollars, and they were confronted by a scene where they wanted a close-up shot of the back of cartridges being loaded into the chambers of a revolver. (Brandon Lee was not involved in this scene; they used a hand-double for the night.)

The props people had no idea how to make dummy cartridges, so they bought real ones and pulled the bullets from the cases. They dumped out the gunpowder, but forgot to remove the primers. (The primer is the tiny sparking cap at the end of the case that ignites the gunpowder.) They warned the hand-double actor to not pull the trigger but because they sent the firearms specialist home early, the props people were supervising the firearm, and had to run off to handle their regular props jobs. The background actor (of course) pulled the trigger.

What no one realized - but any firearms expert knows very well - is that when a firing pin hits a primer but there is no gunpowder, the energy of the spark is sufficient to drive the bullet almost silently an inch or two forward. (It is called a "primer pop.")

The props people took the gun back and put it away. They had no idea how to check the barrel for obstructions or even why this is important. They didn't even know how to clean it!

Two weeks later, they used the same gun to fire blanks at Brandon Lee. Again, they had no idea how to check the barrel or even how to brief the actor on how to 'cheat' the angle away from Brandon Lee. The force of the blank expelled the previously-stuck bullet out the barrel with enough force that Brandon Lee fell instantly and never regained consciousness before he died on the operating room table 10 hours later.

He was two weeks away from getting married.

(I once had a famous Hollywood actor - no need to mention who - once ask me, before I handed him the prop revolver, why I always showed him the empty chambers, pointed it in a safe direction and pulled the trigger EXACTLY eight times. He told me he had been watching me for six weeks, and I never failed to do this, and I always pulled the trigger EXACTLY eight times; never seven, never nine; always eight. I told him, "Sir, the first six are for you, the seventh is for me and the eighth is for Brandon Lee.)


Rare situation and think it would never happen again?

Think again.

Jon-Erik Hexum died when he pointed a revolver loaded with blanks against his head and pulled the trigger. It started when THEY also sent home the weapons specialist, and the props assistant handed him the revolver and walked away.

Three years ago, I was interviewed by a New Jersey paper on a situation that happened at a wild west theme park. They violated just about ALL industry safety standards: they allowed stunt people to bring their own firearms to set, and they didn't have ANYONE to supervise gun safety. One of the stunt people was shot in the head with a real bullet when another stunt person simply forgot to unload his gun before coming to set.

Last year I was again interviewed on TV when a local theatre troupe in Bradenton Florida shot one of the actors in the head with a real gun. The director was rehearsing the final scene of the play "Of Mice and Men," and asked for the prop revolver. One of the other actors opened her purse and said, "Here. Use mine." He took it out of her purse, put it against the back of the actor's head and pulled the trigger. Boom!

Surprisingly enough, the actor may have been the luckiest person on the face of the earth because the bullet ricocheted around the inside of his skull and came out his head just above his ear. (He lived - AND went on stage that night!)

So ... what are the common elements? Lack of proper supervision is certainly the biggest one.

This is why EVERY firearm - real or fake - MUST be treated as if it was loaded at all times, and why every production, no matter how small, must have someone on set who knows what they are doing (even if it is a toy.)

(I was once called "the most anal guy in Hollywood" by an actor in an interview. He meant it affectionately, by the way, and now you know why. In my defence, I must point out that we MUST be anal; mistakes are not acceptable. When your actor makes a mistake, they get another take. When your weapons specialist makes a mistake, you will read about it in a thousand newspapers in the morning.)

So the bottom line is .. just think of how much more fun it will be to do scenes like this when everyone can relax and enjoy the filmmaking process if they know proper steps have been taken to protect their safety. The reality is that, for us professionals in this business, we wouldn't do any other job on the face of the earth.

Dave,

I think you and I are in agreement on many points here.

Among them, safety being paramount. The production studios can afford firearms experts but as you pointed out cannot be counted on to insure they are present and overseeing firearm handling.

We, as independent producers (and often hobbyist producers) usually have no way of affording experts and in the eyes of authorities often lack the legitimacy the professional production studios have.

Your accounts of firearms "accidents" during filming dramatically underscore my insistence that nothing that fires a projectile should be used by us in our indie or hobby productions. The only time I used a real .45 was when I was doing the acting myself and nothing in the script called for a weapon to be pointed at anyone. I showed a "press check" (pressing the slide back enough to show brass in the chamber) and then the piece being returned to an inside the waistband concealment holster. It was the same weapon I was carrying concealed (licensed) for real most of that week and there was no way it was going to be "drawn" and brandished or pointed at anyone. I did that whole project as a "one man show", doing the acting and camera work by myself. No one else was even present so that variable didn't exist.

One scene called for what was going to look like suicide and for that I used a rubber replica, no simulated shot was fired, it was the end of a "dream" sequence and that scene faded to the actor (me) waking up from having dozed off at the computer.

The rubber 1911 I have was purchased from an individual who carried it in a GI holster while on maneuvers when he was in the army. As an officer a sidearm had to be visible in the holster but was never going to be fired so having the rubber replica saved him from having to draw a pistol from the armory and turn it back in. Plus it was lighter.

I use it mostly to have my students practice safe handling until I am comfortable with them loading live ammo.

If I had a project that called for more visual realism in the weapon than that black rubber pistol can provide, then I would order one of the replicas with moving parts but totally solid barrel.

I'd just like to add one more public message of appreciation for the heavy dose of professionalism that this thread has finally achieved.

The casual way it was heading in the first few posts sent a terrible chill down my spine.

People come here to learn. What you've all been reading - particularly in the final few posts by Dave and Bruce mirrors the proper procedures for allowing ANY kind of firearm on any set you work on.

And while it might seem like a giant pain in the butt for a small project or off-the-cuff personal shoot - reality has proved time and again that it's a CRITICAL part of professionalism each and every time anything like a gun is used in visual content creation.

Thanks guys.

I echo Bills comments, I have never done filming involving any gun work but it is good to read the expert words of true pro's who know all the aspects involved in such work.

Thank you for all your insights and I have learned a great deal that will assist should I be asked to film any scenes in the future.

Thanks for all YOUR comments too!

And I totally agree that 'hobby' or indie productions should NOT use anything that could contain or fire ANY projectile at all. This is why we permanently seal the barrel, chamber, magazine loading port and magazine area of any BB or pellet gun before it gets used on set.

I would also caution any indie production to do the same. (But PLEASE still follow my above guidelines on supervision!)

If you want something more than that, find the right people. The folks who have the expertise to do this for a living are fairly rare but we ARE out there. Many of us are perfectly willing to help out on small productions when our schedules allow. The reality is, at least for me, I would rather be on a film set keeping people safe than at home doing nothing. Like anyone else in the independent film community, lots of people are willing to give their time and expertise when they can, and try and work within people's budgets.

My preference is to always try to do things in the camera, as I am sure most of you agree. If it can be done safely and inexpensively, I will always choose to fire blanks instead of trying to do it in post. This, of course absolutely requires an experienced expert is on set and is in TOTAL charge of the set when the gun comes out, including cast and crew protection, camera angles, actor actions and sequence of procedures.

Not to stretch out my already longish posts but people often ask me where they can find experts who can help them with gun scenes. I suggest they start at their local city film liaison office who can give them good contacts. Film schools, university film programs and even high school film instructors are also a good source. Even the unions may be able to suggest someone who can help out. (Weapons handlers usually work under IATSE jurisdictions here in North America.)

The point is that there are lots of people who are willing to offer advice (such as on this forum, as evidenced above) and lots of people who are willing to help out with this stuff, so the reality is that there is NO EXCUSE FOR GETTING PEOPLE HURT, or putting cast and crew into danger.

"I just couldn't afford it," doesn't look very good when written down on an accident report or read out in court.

This forum really seems to attract some common-sense people! Be safe and have fun, and love what you are doing.

This kind of topic interests me greatly as the laws here in the UK have become much more tight since the 'troubles' began. We obviously don't have firearms available to the general public, but now even replicas are considered in a similar manner to real firearms. I deal mainly in theatrical productions, and getting in proper people is now the only way to be allowed to have any kind of gun in a production. Toy guns, and even gas powered guns can be considered as offensive weapons - so doing anything involving guns can get people arrested!

Shooting outside in a public area would be inviting trouble.

I do think it's rather sad that nowadays we have to actually see the shooting. I'm thinking back to the old days when you saw what was going to happen, and then cut-aways let you know it had happened, or maybe lighting was shadows and gloom, then a flash - all those old cliches. Nowadays we seem to have to show the bullet entering slowly with brains and goo everywhere. I just wish we didn't! Where has imagination gone?

The only shooting shoot (pun intended) I've done, I hid the guy being executed by having the bad guy force him to lie in a ditch. Then we moved the camera back with a medium lens and did the money shot MOS. The guy holding the prop gun moved his hand like it was recoiling (I've seen really phony recoil simulation efforts on Hollywood productions). There was a silencer, thus no muzzle flash. Of course I'm no gun expert so I don't know how realistic that part is. We considered adding the gunshot sounds in post, but decided instead to overlay it with eirie music instead.

Squids are useful if you're shooting ink. Squibs are the ones that go "bang".

:-)

As for muzzle flashes, I played around with an After Effects tutorial at Videocopilot.net

VIDEO COPILOT | After Effects Tutorials & Post Production Tools

Take a look at the demos. They're informative and free.

BTW, something else to consider is the actors' hearing. Blank-firing guns are very loud and can injure anyone's ears.

Since the action is can be "sweetened" both visually and aurally in post, I'd go with the suggestion of faking the recoil and adding the muzzle blast, gunshot and cartridge ejection in post.

If you want a slightly more realistic recoil, you might be able to jerk the gun with clear monofilament line. Or at least do that in rehearsal to give the actor a sense of what it should look like.

First Kudos on the safety talks. Every indie needs to give the safety talk.
Granted this post is about guns but knives are more prevalent on set and also require this type of "This knife has been dulled but it can still hurt you..." talk.

About guns:
98% of gun realism is achieved by sound and editing.
We use air-soft.
Safe for actors but not for people carrying these things.
Never attempt a guerilla gun scene in public.
Its a post 9/11 world. You will get arrested or worse.

-C

One thing for sure - when it comes to guns, Arizona is not the UK! Did you see the photos of guys walking around with their guns outside where Obama was speaking a couple of weeks back?

Re recoil, I think it's grossy ecaggerated in Hollywood unless the character is firing one of the new .50 caliber Smith & Wesson pistols - or something simiar

The ordinary 9mm auto or 38 Special doesn't have a very dramatic recoil.

You might also want to look into hiring a fight director if you need a realistic looking fight scene which is also safe. We have fights in our operas ranging from fists, to swords, knives, quarterstaffs and guns and always engage a fight director. If nothing else, it may put your mind more at ease regarding liability. The Society of American Fight Directors is one resource for this.

Moved from Open DV to TIP where it belongs...

I have to admit, I have never really been much of a fan of opera.

Evidently, I've just been seeing the wrong operas.

:)

-Jon

One showing of Die Fledermaus will cure that.

Well my point was just that fights are fights, whether onstage in an opera or part of your indie production. People can get hurt, so use common sense and hire a professional if what you're doing has the potential to injure somebody.

Chris, did you get a chance to see "The Bat" in Austin last year?

I remember a performance of Don Giovanni where, during the sword fight at the beginning, one of the singers zigged when he should have zagged and got slapped across the face with a sword - even though it was not a real sword, it opened up most of his cheek and he bled like a pig. The other guy was so shocked that he fainted right on stage and then the first guy keeled over on stage. The opera was at an outdoor summer venue up a very steep narrow road, so it took quite a while for the ambulances (2) to get there. Next thing you knew, one of the orchestra members fainted from seeing all the blood, and fell on a music stand, so another ambulance had to be called, then a couple of audience members fainted and one guy had a mild heart attack. I think by the time the carnage was over there were about 8 ambulances lined up.

It took an hour or so to get the substitutes suited up so they could start over.

Aside from that it was a really good performance.

Moral - BE CAREFUL!

Can anyone recommend a place to buy squibs and squids?

I've had AMAZING results using Video Copilot's Action Essentials 2. The project produces stunning results if you work it hard in After Effects. I shot a full on gun battle between 2 people (automatic weapons, handguns, shot in head, shot in winshield) and had people just floored with it. This is using non-moving airsoft guns that are just painted for a distressed look and have barely any moving parts (no recoil, no eject or ejection port opening).

Here is the California Law on all forms of guns, replicas, etc.:
http://www.atf.gov./firearms/statela...n/califpt1.pdf

Knives and the like are also covered.

It should be noted that laws vary from city to city, county to count, state to state. Laws are quite different in Burbank than in Los Angeles, for example.

It also should be noted that while a sporting goods store may be able to sell BB or airsoft guns, it is very possible these same guns are illegal to use in any manner within the city, county or state they are sold. In some cases, the only place such guns can be used is licensed parks or on shooting ranges.

Carry laws and transportation laws can apply to toy guns as well as real guns. Real guns can have less restrictions than toy guns often. For example, in many places airsoft guns must have orange tips on the barrels.

There are special laws regarding entertainment use of firearms as well. In California it is illegal to borrow a firearm to use in an entertainment production without a permit:
California Penal Code Section 12081 - California Attorney Resources - California Laws
This permit may also offer a bit of legitimization to an awkward situation with authorities no matter what kind of weapons are being used in a production.
(It is also illegal to lend a firearm.)

Another consideration is that if the police as questions about use of a plastic gun (for example) and you say you are making a video/movie, they will immediately start asking for shooting permits, etc. Some places (like Burbank for example) are particularly unfriendly to small productions, and these are very expensive.

And don't forget, you may run into someone who wants to take a minor technical infraction and make an example out of you to show the evil of guns.

Depending on the location, there can be very stringent laws regarding squibs and the like. Squibs could be considered explosive devices and if stuck in a pouch or pocket "concealed on a person" might lead a prosecutor to try to put you in prison for several years... especially if all the permists (and associated fees) are not taken care.

Non-firing - replica guns are totally illegal in some places, even when airsoft replicas (with orange-which can be removed-tips are not.

There are also some very strict laws on knives and other bladed devices.

While safety needs to be the primary concern, legal issues are more likely to destroy your life.

Finally, actors should get themselves firearm training. Actors should also learn to not trust anyone with guns on a movie set. As mentioned above, a reliable professional firearms person will explain and demonstrate everything. My experience is that the reliable firearms person does not let the gun and anyone holding it out of his or her sight. But at the same time, the actors must understand what the possibilities are, what is happening around them and watch out for themselves.

The one thing that I would miss seeing in a fully automatic weapon is cartridge ejection. While it's relatively easy to do it digitally with a single shot, a rain of brass is a lot tougher, especially if a lot of them has to end up on the floor.

Maybe the military will move ahead with its caseless ammo developments and make it easier on the visual effects guys! :-)

I totally agree that every actor should receive some basic training in firearms safety.

(I should state up front that that this is not entirely an altruistic belief on my part. Once a year, I host a three-day course specifically for actors that covers all the basics of safety, terminology, authenticity and the nature of blanks ... plus we spend one whole day at the shooting range practicing with various loads of blanks AND concluding with some live-fire practice with real handguns. Great fun and a unique learning experience for actors!)

I don't need them to know my job better than me; I need them knowledgeable enough to know when to ask questions and to know when things are NOT being done right.

For some strange reason, I seem to have become somewhat of an authority on this topic and am often asked to teach workshops on safety and what I do on film sets. I was once invited down to LA to teach at Dee Wallace's acting studio, simply because she had had a very bad experience with guns once and she really liked how careful and professional I was with her when we got a chance to work together. (She is a lovely lady and an amazingly talented actress - and one of the best parts of my job is that I get to stand around and watch some really really talented people like her at work.)

At the end of my presentation on staying safe, one of the actors approached me to ask when live ammunition would be allowed on film sets. I didn't really need to explain about the rare possibility of locked-off second-unit shots, simply because actors would NEVER be involved in such rare events, so I simply said, "Never." He then told me he was involved in an indie project in LA where the so-called gun 'expert' showed everyone on set the difference between the dummy cartridge that he held in one hand and the live round he held in the other.

Perhaps he thought he was helping educate people but the end result is that everyone just got freaked out that this gentleman had LIVE ammunition on the film set. (I think that actor was even more freaked out when he saw my face turn white!)

This is not a minor issue either. On big-budget productions, there are often paid-duty police officers doing traffic lockups. My policy is that producers have to notify me in advance when this is going to happen and what they are carrying for firearms, plus I never allow paid-duty officers to come closer than 100 meters to the prop guns. There have even been situations where real police officers play roles as a SWAT team and they show up on set with pouches full of loaded magazines. (This is where a policy of giving EVERYONE who handles firearms - even plastic ones - a complete safety briefing pays off!)

CGI is still a time-consuming and expensive process, especially when one needs to CGI muzzle flashes, slide movements and empty shell casings. Blanks are still the most viable option for most filmmakers provided they can access the appropriate expertise.

I am a big fan of doing as much as one can in the camera.

If a filmmaker really needs to CGI some muzzle flashes though, one tip is to light the actor's face on the set with a snooted strobe or a quick burst of light. This will provide a good spot to add in the muzzle flash in post.

(For a good example of how to do this, watch the opening sequence of "True Lies." All the gunshots were blanks except the last two shots. If you remember the sequence, Arnold fires his gun directly in front of Tom's face and the ONLY way this could be done safely was CGI. Watch the last two shots frame-by-frame and you will see they flash a quick burst of light onto Arnold's face from below, and then the visual effects folks add in a muzzle flash and then one frame of solid white.)

I would love to hear more stories - good and bad - from all you folks. Stay safe and have fun!

I had a full auto rifle in my last shoot that I had to CGI the ejection for. It was tedious but once I got into the groove it wasn't so bad. Since I never shot the ground, I didn't have to worry about shell casings resting. The overall effect was pretty good.

Re: Guns! Guns! How to pull off a realistic killing ?
 

I know this is an old thread but I wanted to revive it to perhaps provide some more useful tips for filmmakers.

We are in production of a large theatrical Shakespeare play, with modern costumes and contemporary locations (but traditional Shakespearean dialogue) plus a couple of full-auto UZI submachine guns that fire in the air during the show. There was talk of doing this the traditional way with wooden replicas and backstage sound effects but the production and director really wanted to explore the possibility of actually firing blanks on stage.

Now, this requires special modified blank-firing imitation firearms, a highly experienced firearms specialist, specialized training for the cast members involved in the scene, some very careful blocking of the scene, permits from the police ... and a LOT of blank cartridges. But the point is that it CAN be done safely.

It took a lot of very careful work but the effect is amazing. The audience loves it because they jump out of their seats (even thought they are fully informed about the gunshots,) the noise and smoke are real, and the empty shell casings are still raining down on the stage platform seconds after the firing is over.

There is just no way to get the same effect with special effects, sound effects or CGI.

But back to film. I wanted to bring this thread back to life to see if others wanted to share other stories or techniques.

Plus, I was extremely honoured to be recently interviewed by LA Talk Radio's "Film Courage" on firearms safety issues on film sets:

Filming with Firearms | Film Courage

Re: Guns! Guns! How to pull off a realistic killing ?
 

Dave Brown out of Winnipeg???

We have done some SWoT presentation together MANY years ago... How are ya?!?!?

What Dave DOESN'T make apparent in his post is that he IS a professional armourer. AND an all around great guy!

Re: Guns! Guns! How to pull off a realistic killing ?
 

Thanks for the kind words Shaun.

Yup, that's me. When not teaching on a shooting range, working on a film set or traveling to do a workshop, I still enjoy volunteering my time with Safe Workers of Tomorrow (SWoT) and talking kids about safety in the workplace. I still love what I do and I am very fortunate to have met and worked with some wonderful folks over the years. (Including yourself.)

Re: Guns! Guns! How to pull off a realistic killing ?
 

I remember you always wowed the kids by doing a breakdown of the skiing scene from True Lies. Always got them more interested than me telling them about their rights...

Had the opportunity to work alongside Ah-nold's stunt man/double of 14 years last weekend, Peter Kent. Great stories...

Keep well and thanks for your ongoing commitment to safety, on set and in the workplace!

Re: Guns! Guns! How to pull off a realistic killing ?
 

Well, I just received word that my own little film was just accepted into the Action on Film International Film Festival in Pasadena in August, and this simple little boy from the Canadian prairies is seriously thinking of making the trip down there to see his work up on the big screen. I am excited beyond belief.

I am thrilled to think that a career spanning nearly 20 years of standing behind a motion picture camera watching others at work actually DID teach me a thing or two about the actor/director relationship, and helped me direct actors with some, albeit rudimentary, skills.

So ... if anyone on these forums will be at Action on Film (AOF) in August 2012, be sure to look me up. If you missed seeing me on Discovery Channel last month talking about firearms in film and the mistakes leading up the the death of Brandon Lee that night 19 years ago, then corner me to chat at AOF.

I wonder if I can talk the organizers into having me give a talk or a forum panel on exactly what we have been discussing on this thread: how to achieve the look you want with guns safely, legally and inexpensively.

I have had an amazing career and have worked with some amazing people.

Re: Guns! Guns! How to pull off a realistic killing ?
 

Relating to the puff of air trick, here is a modest example.

REVISED TRAILER VERSION By Bob Hart On ExposureRoom

The speed was ramped up in post and due to a very tight deadline, the head impact was not CGI'd into the vision.


On safety, It is inevitable that some low budget production players are going to take shortcuts. A very, very important message to hammer home to them is NOT to demand that any volunteer armourer be multitasked. The volunteer armourer should have the guts to tell the production that if his safety demands are not met, he will walk and furthurmore be prepared to do so.


I do endorse the post furthur back about the regrettable gratuitous tendency towards more graphic blood and gore and depicting casualness about ending someone's life.

There are the slow-witted and sociopathic individuals out there with peculiar thought process and logic who do NOT need that extra implied licence that graphic depictions of gun violence may bizarrely convey to them.