Re: Do a lot of movies use this 3 color rule?
 

I think most here believe the color scheme you "came up with on your own" was heavily influenced/copied from scores of other films, i.e. you saw a cop movie with gritty blue everything and decided this was the way to go on your film.

Re: Do a lot of movies use this 3 color rule?
 

The snag is that I think many of us see something and think - that's really nice, at some stage, that will be appropriate for me to use, with some modifications, in a production. We all do this, but I suspect that because our circumstances are different, we modify it. I usually get inspired by things I see. a few years back I saw a live music production in Holland - they had a grid of 100 moving head lights pointing vertically down on an orchestra - then the things they did with them made me go wow! I pinched the idea with 49 lights in a 7 x 7 grid. Not the same ones, because theirs were 6 grand each and the hire fee corrspondingly huge, but I had 30 slightly less spec'd ones, and got another 20 in, within my budget and it looked damn good - but not the same as the one I'd seen, and I don't know if it was the type, the height, the spread or my control that made it less good.

You see things in movies and want the result without understanding the blend and combination of separate features. You want, for some reason blue walls where there are none. why, we don't know, but you have told us this and showed your attempt. Not once have you ever explained why.

You ask us to say yes or no to your understanding that colour gading is about sheen? You are using words that make no sense - sheen is usually a term reserved for reflectance conversations - some materials have a sheen, like silk - colour grading is an art, and it's normally subtle to give a shift to the balance of colour, or it's radical for effect. Maybe it's to make the foliage look autumnal (not sure what the north american version for fall colours would be), or make it look more arid, or romantic, or scary, or ........ Your version is because you like blue, so you want things not blue, to be blue. Clearly you don;t understand this Ryan. You are so wrapped up in copying everything, as if replicating components guarantees success. You want the music, the sets the costumes to all be different from what they are naturally. You want to set conventions aside, you want to be innovative, but your solution is to steal things from totally different genre movies. If I did this the result, I know would be terrible. I want a purple wall, yellow clothing, pink leaves on trees, trumpets in love scenes, slow strings in the battle scenes and grey text on a dark grey background in the credits. I'd want every actor to have strings on them so I could pull them around out of camera view and I'd want a mega bright lighting setup run off AA batteries.

This is not serious Ryan - just in case you think it is, but it is similar to the ridiculous things you sometimes come up with - and please if you have to say "so you are saying.." stop and think, because we never are.

Everything you do is mimicry. All your good ideas are stolen. Every bad idea revealed, is dismissed or ignored, and good ideas ignored.

A few months back, you'd not even tried grading. Now you speak about it like an expert, but struggle with the basics. Months ago, I pleaded with you to do a skills audit. To sit with pen and paper and list all the things you can do, and how good you are at them. This is what we always did in college when students had ideas way above their current performance ability, and seeing it on paper really focussed their minds. They could see their strengths and they could see where they were weak, and work on it. You clearly never did it, because you have not progressed it seems. You are still blundering around, unable to make decisions based on what you really can do well, fixated on things totally outside your sphere of competence.

It also seems that your friends are also fed up with you not taking their advice - how many times have you said "I've been told" and fed total rubbish, or taken solid advice totally the wrong way. To be able to move forward, you must develop understanding, and clearly you have a long way to go. Once you appreciate your limits you can stretch them - but you believe you can do everything, and we are all wrong. I think everyone on this quest with you is trying so hard to make you understand, we're honest and in the main, patient - but you really stretch it so often.

Write the script, find the actors and shoot it. Stop messing around with the silly things. I spoke to a camerman friend. He works mainly in natural history. He says he never sees the grade until the audience do. Nothing to do with him. His job is to get the best pictures he can so people can work with them. He has lots of discussion about content, style, quality, technical requirements, but if the sky looks different, or the plumage more vivid, that's not his role. Invariably, he says, the colourist made his work look better, and he gets the credit - which is unfair, but how it is. He also said that if the audience ever spot the grading as unreal - everyone has failed, and he would also get the blame for that.

Re: Do a lot of movies use this 3 color rule?
 

Actually I used to have a subscription to american cinematographer and it is not uncommon (or wasnt, back in the mid 2000s when I was reading it) for a dp to sit in with colorist for the sessions.

Ryan said he did the skills audit some ago and that it said he was good at planning, and Ryan didnt really know what to do with that info.

Re: Do a lot of movies use this 3 color rule?
 

The DP being with the colourist during colour correction does vary, the lack of input by the DP has been a matter of concern in recent years for them. High end feature films, as covered in American Cinematographer with A list DPs, can be different to other sectors. The 2000s would be before this became more common, although in say the BBC the editor tended to be involved in the grading more than the camera people for many years..

Re: Do a lot of movies use this 3 color rule?
 

The audit results explains why he spends almost all his time planning. Unfortunately these plans aren't backed up with the ability and experience to execute them, they're based on a patch work of ideas from feature films. It's like looking at beautifully iced cakes in a bakery window and concluding icing is the most part of baking. Making independent movies is an expensive hobby, sounds like all you can afford is sitting at home and planning out the perfect movie.

Re: Do a lot of movies use this 3 color rule?
 

That seems crazy to me since the cinematographer is hugely responsible for the look and it seems like part of that would be seeing it through the grade to complete his/her vision.

Let me ask this: back in the day they used to do all sorts of tests, for weeks, all the way through the post process, before shooting a single frame, right? So you'd test makeup, lighting, wardrobe etc., try out different film stocks and processing methods (probably camera profiles and grading styles these days), and you would basically know, before even shooting, what anything in front of the lens was going to look like when the movie was finalized ("that red robe won't work," "those shadows will be too dark"). Is that not done any more?

Re: Do a lot of movies use this 3 color rule?
 

They will still do tests, but you should separate high end feature films from a lot of TV work, where the DP may be way off on another job. How much testing will depend on the budget and the nature of the production.

Re: Do a lot of movies use this 3 color rule?
 

Well when you say everything I do is a mimicry and I've ignored good ideas which good ideas did I ignore?

I talked to one DP so far and he said since I'm on a low budget the best way to hide unwanted colors is to shoot in black and white. But does he have a point, because I thought black and white was not the way to go personally.

and you say the look I came up with is not original because I've combined different ideas. But hasn't every look been done before and there is no original looks anymore since every look for a movie is just a combination of ideas that have been done before?

Re: Do a lot of movies use this 3 color rule?
 

It's interesting that you don't seem to be taking account of the characters' world and their psychology in all this, it's just various colour grading effects rather than it being part of the journey you're taking the audience. That's what I suspect people are getting at.

You're busy thinking about "original" colour effects etc, rather than taking everyone into the world of your story. .

Re: Do a lot of movies use this 3 color rule?
 

Oh but I thought I was using the color to take people into the world of my story, or that was my intention.

Re: Do a lot of movies use this 3 color rule?
 

That's a very vague statement. In what way? Justify your choice to us. Make it clear that all this blue means something other than "stuff is gritty."

Re: Do a lot of movies use this 3 color rule?
 

Well it's difficult to put into words, but I picture the look that best suits the story in my head, but hard to put into words why I think that would be the best look.

Re: Do a lot of movies use this 3 color rule?
 

I'm afraid the committee can't accept that. If you're going to spend multiple threads and months, and attempt to repaint locations and restrict wardrobe to fit this color scheme, you'd better have a good reason for it, that you can clearly articulate, otherwise it's probably not that important and is a huge waste of time, right?

Re: Do a lot of movies use this 3 color rule?
 

You're attracted to the non human elements in film making and don't understand their connection to story telling. You want to mimic cinematic techniques like color grading that you think look good. You probably could get away with throwing these effects on but you neither have the ability, experience or budget to do it well.

You repeatedly present these "problems" to people and everyone is going to give you different advice. One person told you to do black and white, I said a mild grade, someone else said use color lighting...

You would be far better off doing one of the technical jobs on a movie that doesn't require you to make these sort of decisions that you struggle with.

Re: Do a lot of movies use this 3 color rule?
 

That's the thing here isn't it Pete - we see the problems as challenges and can come up with all kinds of solutions, that Ryan seems unable to. This is where what we say here is fodder for Ryan - he can pick one comment and say "I've been told I should shoot in black and white", or "I've been told that I should only do a mild grade" or "I've been told I should use coloured light". All these were indeed said, but not meant to be definitive MUSTS, but simply suggestions. I don't know how to get Ryan to understand any of this now - he's just in overdrive and running at full speed, and we're still reading the map!

Re: Do a lot of movies use this 3 color rule?
 

Oh okay, well as far as articulating it into words, how would one articulate it into words for other films. Let's take the movie Amelie for example, since it has a look that isn't going for what I am going for at all. The three main colors used in the movie are brown, green and red. Why did the filmmakers choose these colors do you think?

Re: Do a lot of movies use this 3 color rule?
 

What most of us would do there is look an up interview with the DP, director, or colorist and try to find out from the horse's mouth why they chose those colors.

Re: Do a lot of movies use this 3 color rule?
 

Oh okay, I can look for that. Well the reason why I chose brown, blue and red so far is because it gives a gritty tone, but is that not enough in explaination. If they want more than a gritty look and feel, are people perhaps overthinking it?

Re: Do a lot of movies use this 3 color rule?
 

thats shallow reasoning. why do blue and brown equal gritty?

Re: Do a lot of movies use this 3 color rule?
 

Amelie Color Analysis - Eda Aydin
You owe us another quarter, because you can't think for yourself, instead of answering a question, you pose another question about a feature film.

Re: Do a lot of movies use this 3 color rule?
 

Well brown is inevitable, because skin is more brown, some furniture is more brown, the trees in the shots are going to be brown. So brown is just one of the 3 colors by inevitability. Blue I felt adds a cold grittiness, but I am not sure how else to explain it other than that.

Red just gives a real serious feel of passion so that's what the red is more in contrast to the blue.

Re: Do a lot of movies use this 3 color rule?
 

You made that up didn't you? Brown is not remotely inevitable. I'm sitting at home - I see nothing brown or even remotely brownish in this room? I see blue, green-blue, white and grey, and yellow. My skin isn't brown either. Confused now!

Re: Do a lot of movies use this 3 color rule?
 

Well even if nothing is brown in the frame, the actor's skin is still more on the brown side so isn't that inevitable in that sense, that's going to be one of the colors?

Re: Do a lot of movies use this 3 color rule?
 

youre sort of getting somewhere. cold and passion are at least more concrete than gritty. Now tell us what cold and passion have to do with your story and characters. Im trying to get you to specifically tie these colors to things that happen in your film. what does cold have to do with your story? what does passion?

A director must be able to articulate and communicate things otherwise how will you ever succeed?

Paul, I am positive he got the brown is inevitable thing from one of those three color vids on Youtube cause I’ve seen that video too.

Re: Do a lot of movies use this 3 color rule?
 

Not all skin is brown, some has pink or red or purple,

Re: Do a lot of movies use this 3 color rule?
 

yeah that's true. I guess I just meant variance of skin color. So I guess my three colors would be skin color, blue, and red then. Or if skin color doesn't count as a color in the scheme, then just blue and red.

Re: Do a lot of movies use this 3 color rule?
 

Ryan if you haven't figured it out Josh pushing you to explain your decision and your difficulty in answering them means that your story and characters aren't driving your decisions for things like blue walls. You watch tutorials with the 3 color "rules" and now you are applying them for their own sake.

Re: Do a lot of movies use this 3 color rule?
 

If you take that video, skim is part of brown, but there are elements that show aspects of brown, because it's part of nature. However, the colours need to be revealing about what going on under the surface.

Blue has been used in up marker perfume commercials, so there's also more going on than just the colour..

Re: Do a lot of movies use this 3 color rule?
 

I would give ryan an example of what a director/dp might say about why those colors could fit Ryan’s movie but I almost know for certain he would say “yeah thats what I meant” and then use that argument as we continue to talk about making this film for the next ten years and I wont make it that easy for him.

Re: Do a lot of movies use this 3 color rule?
 

Yes they say that in the video, and I saw their point about how skin is in the more brownish area, so that will end up becoming a color. But if skin color doesn't count as part of the color scheme then I can just go with blue, and red then.

Well is the 3 color method bad though, if other movies do it? I actually have six colors in mind. Skin color, blue, red, white, black and grey. Unless white, black and grey do not count as colors and just shades. As for the color of wall, well it's just white walls look bad for some reason and so many locations have white walls. But if I am to recolor the walls, so they are not white, I figure I might as well color them a color that is part of the color scheme I am going for shouldn't I?

Re: Do a lot of movies use this 3 color rule?
 

What he never seems to get is that the process is as important as the final decision. No doubt he has taken your question as a challenge find the right answer to support his blue wall decision.

Color can take on different meanings based on it's context. Green in Amelie is peace and nature, where as in the Matrix it is the sinister virtual world of the computer. So this isn't about whether blue is good or bad it's about you creating rules and impediments where none exist. Your movie doesn't need to follow 3 color rule you just made an arbitrary stylistic decision that it must despite not having the ability to pull it off.

Re: Do a lot of movies use this 3 color rule?
 

Well also the type of blue would determine the mood as well. For example I am going for a somewhat desaturated tone too as far as feeling goes.

Re: Do a lot of movies use this 3 color rule?
 

There's no point in you endlessly asking questions, it's what up on screen colour wise that counts and if that seamlessly connects with the audience as part of the mise en scene. .

Re: Do a lot of movies use this 3 color rule?
 

Well if that's the case, should I choose a color scheme for the wardrobe then and the set pieces more so?

Re: Do a lot of movies use this 3 color rule?
 

You should worry less about color coordination and think about what these characters would wear based on who they are and how the locations should be dressed based how the characters that inhabit them would dress them. How would this lady decorate her house based on her life, back story, likes and dislikes. Same for police station etc. Really, bro. Make this color thing a last priority. You're trying to shoot this in less than six months (we said summer, right?). You don't have a finalized script, actors, locations or crew locked down. You're worrying about color schemes. Get the other stuff sorted first. Prioritize.

Re: Do a lot of movies use this 3 color rule?
 

Oh okay, but I thought that the choice of their clothes would be based on other things, such as one character may wear a suit, another a leather jacket, etc. So I thought those types of things would tell you who the characters are, but the color of those clothes are for the tone more so.

Re: Do a lot of movies use this 3 color rule?
 

I still wouldn't worry about it. Unless one of your gritty cops tries to a hot pink pleather jacket that says "JUICY BOI" on it or something, let it go. What they would wear would be a) based on their job b) their personality, just like in real life. Booth on the show "Bones" was an FBI guy so he wore a boring suit but he also had this rebellious streak so he wore goofy colored socks or a goofy belt, always one "off" item just to rebel. This was brought up repeatedly. That's an example, not a suggestion for your movie.

Re: Do a lot of movies use this 3 color rule?
 

Oh okay, but in planning the clothes, I thought I still had to plan the colors of the clothes befores shooting.

Re: Do a lot of movies use this 3 color rule?
 

Ryan you like to talk big, how you're hiring this person, renting these location, buying this gear, but none of it ever materializes. How are you even going to get police uniforms, let alone ordering specific color clothes for everyone. This will most likely regress into actors having to wear whatever matches closest.

Is your next thread going to be on costume design and how to sew suits from scratch? Or will it be on how to apply make up? Maybe you can brush up with a quick Youtube tutorial on fashion, cosmetology or set design. What's to stop you? You've tried your hand at every possible job in movie making.

Look no one would blame you for not having the money or not wanting to throw away the little you have on such a risky endeavor, but why must you play these charades?

Re: Do a lot of movies use this 3 color rule?
 

Pete - Very good point.
Costumes cost money and getting them so they all fit the cast properly will be time consuming. Also, not all our volunteer or budget cast would necessarily “look the part” (well groomed hair, tattoos, etc.). Even the leather shoes and other leather items, police badges, name badges, matching shoulder web cams and radios, etc. will be costly. Thanks for bringing this up. This is where PLANNING is helpful.

We’ve got a good solution for THAT problem - we’ll change the script to read Police “plain clothes” DETECTIVES so they will be wearing whatever helps them blend in with their “clientele”. All the actors will feel more comfortable in their everyday dudes. Maybe even have a skateboard for show. Speaking of those black shiny leather shoes, those can be expensive and need to be polished. How many of the cast know how to polish a leather shoe???

Being Plain Clothes Detectives, they won’t need to be showing their badge all the time so only need to buy (or borrow) one and share it, if needed, in different shots. Remember, eBay fake ones cost around $4 ea, so the budget for several of them adds up. With budgeting, “the devil is in the details”.

Police cars? Hey, the Plain Clothes guys drive incognito, so no fancy black-’n-white needed.

Think of Mannix (TV circa 1970s, the private eye who lived in a trailer near the beach and wore a sport coat). Detective cars use a single magnetic flashing light they reach out the window and put on the roof.
Edit: If a detective wants to dress more up-scale (Mannix-style), pick up a used sport coat at the Goodwill (second hand store).