Re: Shooting weddings with small handicams
 

Rob -
Before you jump, check the sensor specs - I'm pretty sure that ONLY the 7xx cameras have a 1/3" sensor, and any of the rest of the line has a 1/4" (roughly of course). This may or may not translate into performance issues (low light particulaly).

I picked up a GW77 cheap, and it performs OK, especially considering what I paid for it and the size... but it is not in the same league as one of the 7xx class top end "Handycams"... though most people probably wouldn't notice most of the time!

You may want to put hands on one of those CX4xx cameras before you decide, it may be "adequate", but I'd also suggest if it doesn't have the BOSS OIS, you might want to step up to a model that does, especially if the cam will be handheld a lot. The "magic eyeball" is pretty amazing...

Re: Shooting weddings with small handicams
 

I've only just found this thread and read it from the beginning. It interests me especially, as I have used small cams for my wedding filming for probably 10 years. Having been shooting weddings for over 27 years, from U-matic, S-VHS, Hi8 etc, I loved the freedom that the earlier 3chip minidv cams gave me and have stuck with them ever since my first ones. I have also stayed with Panasonic as I like the colour rendition and low light performance and currently have 3 SD700s which are very similar to the newer 900. I also prefer the SD card cameras rather than the HD models as I can save the card at the end of the day and put in a new one if I have a wedding the next day.

I find the manual controls easy to use and the ability to control basic parameters like focus, exposure etc from the lens ring if required is also very useful. As I shoot quite a lot of 3D work, I use the Pannys on a 12" slide rail as a twin rig with space to use my JVC GS-TD1 for closer 3d shots. For normal 2d wedding work, I can still use two Pannys on the rail for different framing of the same shots, or put one on a separate tripod if required for a locked off shot. I also sometimes reverse the screen on the locked off shot so that if it is reasonably close, I can vary the telephoto with a remote while watching the screen. The rail also gives me space to mount an LED light and mic if required.

Interestingly, with regards to taking video and stills as a solo operator, I take the opposite approach to others here. My main sell is the video, but those clients that book video can also book an optional photographic add on. I carry a DSLR which I can mount on the rail, but generally sling over my shoulder. As I consider that posed shots are the domain of the photographer and less important to the video, I will set up groups and poses from a photographic point of view, and let the video run while taking the stills. Also throughout the day I will take reportage style shots as I feel appopriate. What I have found is that the SD700s take excellent stills in good light, if you use the still shot facility. As I use an extension on my IR remote to mount it on the tripod handle, I can press the stills button at any time even while the camera is filming. It will take 12mp stills during filming and 14mp when paused.

I have made a number of photo albums just from the video camera stills, and the addition of the DSLR has expanded this considerably. I don't sell the service as replacing a dedicated high level wedding photographer, but as an unobtrusive alternative with posed shots available as required. As my video service is also extremely unobtrusive, I find that many couples feel that photographers can take over the day and that although family groups are still important, much of the work traditionally carried out by the photographer is becoming less popular.

Since starting offering the photography service early last year, about 20% of my new bookings are with photography. At wedding shows, I have found that couples looking at the photo side have also become interested in the video and vice versa. Rather than finding video a dirty word, I have found that both together in one package has been a real attraction and for me is definitely the way to go. This year I have also found couples seeking out the video specifically at shows for the first time and also far fewer video companies:-)

Roger

Re: Shooting weddings with small handicams
 

Yes, without knowing that newer model that still has to come out, I"d be careful about how it performs because I know that existing lower end models handicams today don't have the same performance as Sony's flagship and when you plan to do weddings that will make a difference.

Re: Shooting weddings with small handicams
 

As near as I can tell Sony released exactly ONE "flagship" model (a SINGLE "PJ" model as opposed to 3 cams for the last few years, CX and PJ model mix) with this years' drastically cut back Handycam line ("the smart phone ate my camera/videocam"). It's got that "attractive" wart containing a supposedly better mic set up. I am pretty sure that the next model down uses BOSS, BUT it has a smaller sensor.

Both the Handycam and Cybershot releases this year indicate that the market has shifted, and (likely due to the aforementioned smart phones), there is a LOT less selection, at least from Sony, who is losing money in this area from what it seems. From my rough estimates, "selection" eliminated about 2/3 of the model offerings, with some Cybershot "lines" disappearing entirely (TX & HX)! Unless Sony makes some late cycle introductions, it's pretty slim pickin's...

Not sure what Canon and Panasonic are doing, but it is beginning to look like the "consumer" is NOT buying small cameras, of either the video or still variety, in favor of shooting with smart phones. Looked at a new smart phone myself, will be upgrading shortly, and it has 1080 HD video and 5Mp still that at first glance looked pretty good, has HDR and other advanced features... times and technology are changing!

Re: Shooting weddings with small handicams
 

yes, that seems to be the case, my cx730 has had some large price fluctuations over a very short period with prizes between 1020 euro and 820 euro in the same shop, in another large videostore you can't buy it anymore which could indicate they have a hard time selling it.
The cx730 might be the last of the mohicans, I better hold on to it tight, might be a collectors item soon :)

Re: Shooting weddings with small handicams
 

Some nice moves in that video Noa, but for just about all churches I know of I'd be kicked out for filming that close to the couple during the rings and wows! It's amazing how things differ from country to country.

Re: Shooting weddings with small handicams
 

That's actually the standard position at weddings here, did you see the photog during the rings, he was crawling just in front of the couple to get his shot :)
I do wish we did in the way I see in a lot of US videos where the couple just faces each other during the ceremony and the videoguy can position 2 camera's left and right and maybe one in the back and cover it all, here you would risk not getting any faces during the vows or even missing the rings exchange as the couple often is facing the priest and showing their backs to the guests in church. Usually I am standing on the left or right side of the altar and only go to the center when they do the vows and share rings and the same for the photog who is usually standing beside me.

Re: Shooting weddings with small handicams
 

Yes I did. That's a major no-no here ;)

Fortunately, they do generally do turn to face each other here. When ever I go to rehearsals and hear the vicar telling the couple that they should turn "just a little" towards each other I jump in and tell them to turn all the way to face each other so that the rear camera can see them.

In terms of how they do it in the US, we wouldn't generally have enough room to stand either side and get their faces. The churches are just too small, as are most civil venues. So it's usually a case of get them from the back, or an unattended camera from the front/side in the choir stalls, and maybe if we're lucky I can get a side position to see 'one' of their faces. Occasionally they don't turn all the way and we are relying on the unattended front camera (we're almost never allowed to stand there).

Hmmm..... 'moving during the ceremony' - another big no-no here in churches. We'd get away with moving 'a little' in a civil venue, but no where near as close as you appeared to be ;)

Re: Shooting weddings with small handicams
 

thanks for the advice, yeah the CX410V has the smaller sensor, so it looks like it'll be the CX730 which isn't that readily available here in Ireland - in fact the majority of cams i see for sale are the really lower end - competing with the smart phones eh?
Anyway i think i'll end up getting a CX730 off ebay probably from Germany, There was a cam called Sony HDR PJ-650VE and a bigger one Sony HDR PJ-780VE but the disappearing CX 730 is the one I think.

Re: Shooting weddings with small handicams
 

I'm not as familiar with EU/PAL model nomenclature, but anything 7xx should be the larger Exmor sensor, IF you can find one. I don't remember if the 5xx series released in 2012 retained the larger sensor, but it is a significantly "less featured" model...

I noticed particularly with the Cybershot lines for 2013 (but also the Handycams), they are aimed at "cheap" consumer price points, with a few "upscale" features to try to attract the customer on the way to buy a shiny new smart phone... very little that would be "interesting" to a serious shooter looking for a crash cam or cheap b/c angle cam. Disappointing is a word that covers it...

As far as US "stock", the CX760 (think that's your 730 equivalent?) is hard to find, but the PJ760V version with the built in projector still seems to be in the retail channels, as are a very few PJ710 (less viewfinder, otherwise identical, OK if you don't need VF, and a bit cheaper). VERY few "resale/used" cameras showing up anymore, probably due to few first sales at retail... I did run into a couple 710's fairly reasonable, but prices have been rising.

I noticed Sony ran some specials to "clear the pipe" for the new 2013 models, with minimal discounts ($100 or so) on the CX/PJ models, but the prices are full retail for the most part now. The PJ790V looks like "it" for the high end handycam, and it likely will be retail, perhaps making the NX30 look attractive? Or pick up a "last years model"...

@Noa - yep, we probably will be holding on to our "small cameras" for a bit, as I do believe they are at the end of both their development and market niche... the cell phone has altered the landscape and the "dinosaurs" just don't have a place anymore! Not sure what all of the implications are, as much of the technological "push" was financed and enabled by quantity "consumer sales". The realistic prospect is that other than perhaps if we see 2k/4k cameras coming into the pipe, the "consumer" Handycam and Cybershots may soon be a fond memory...

Maybe it's time to do like DARPA and build multi arrayed cell phone sensor cams? Could be cool to have a 13Gpixel unit that you just set up and then zoom in to whatever part of the frame you want in "post"!?

Re: Shooting weddings with small handicams
 

I didn't know about the The PJ790V, even more expensive and just a update to the 760 and seems like double the price of what I can get a 730 for now which imagewise performs identically. Only "improvements" it has is the added microphone and a lower quality 720 mp4 recording option which is definitely aimed at people that edit on lower end laptop's. Also the projector has been improved but that is also a real consumerfunction.

I wonder if consumers are likely to pay that much for this camera, Sony has improved their handycam line up considerably over the years, I have a xr520 which once was top of their line as well and it has the same low light performance then the 730 but the 730 is much cleaner at high gains, it also retains color better when it gets dark. I also once had a cx115 and this one was clearly not as light sensitive and had harsh color and contrast, I got rid of it because it didn't match up that well with my other camera's.

If you plan to do any paid assignments with small handicams, your best of with picking the ones with the best specs as they can compete with larger semi-professional camera's imagewise but I wouldn't touch the midrange ones.

Re: Shooting weddings with small handicams
 

after doing a bit further research i've identified a US based PAL version of the Sony HDR-PJ760E this has a 96 Gig internal memory capacity the PJ refers to Projector, it doesn't include a GPS but at €955 incl taxes it looks like a pretty ok deal compared to €820 for the CX 730 from e bay.
The 5xx and 6xx series have the smaller sensor which of course my more expensive HXR-MC2000 had too.
The 'magic eye' and the slightly bigger sensor will be a good asset for a B cam, might still get the smaller CX410V as an emergency/holiday cam.

:-)

Re: Shooting weddings with small handicams
 

@ Noa -
I don't think Sony is selling a lot of the higher end "consumer" cameras, one of the reasons the line is being culled. You have to keep in mind that the 520 when new was around $13-1400 (probably more in euro?). The top of the line has always retailed significantly above the $1K mark, but usually you'd find them "gently used" at decent prices... not so much anymore. Sony improves a little with each generation of cameras, but it's getting harder and harder to "improve" in ways that justify upgrading, The difference between the "top of the line" 520 and the 7xx cameras is minor (and you've hit the two points that I noticed). The magic eyeball is pretty impressive if you have to do any handheld work, if you're on a tripod, you can probably do just fine with "last years" cams, with very similar performance.

@Rob -
Before you buy a "cheap holiday cam", you may want to consider how you'll use it - some of the Point & shoot cameras do pretty good video (usually at the price of less zoom range), and are quite adequate for video, plus decent stills. I've got a few (now "aging", as they were 2010/2011 model) TX100's, great little "pocket" cam, and actually intermixes with bigger cams nicely. The RX100 is another little beast of a camera worth consideration, with a LOT of manual control, even in video, I'm not quite sure about intermixing yet, have to fiddle with the settings some more! The now discontinued but still available HX series are well reviewed as well, currently on discount/closeout!

Re: Shooting weddings with small handicams
 

Noa, did the password for this video change?

Re: Shooting weddings with small handicams
 

Yes it has changed, I pm'd you the changed one. I don't have approval from the couple to show the video but just here on this forum and only for those that would like to see what a cx730 can do at a wedding I don't see it as a problem, I only change the password again after a while. So for those that wish to see it just pm me and I"ll provide a temp password.

Re: Shooting weddings with small handicams
 

Didn't know where exactly to put this but since this older thread was about small handicams anyway I thought it might be good to revive this thread.

I just had to show this, I was at a wedding 2 days ago where an air-balloon was lifting up, I had my sony cx730 with me and shot it handheld while the balloon was airborn, held it with 2 hands a bit above waist-height. Just look at how ridiculously good the image stabilization is on that camera. If you don't believe it was handheld, just watch until the end of the film. Also see how smooth zoom you can perform.

I use this camera all the time during interviews to catch guest reaction where I can move around in stealth mode and being able to get near tripod like footage.

Re: Shooting weddings with small handicams
 

I'm one of the guys in the market for a new handicam (to go with a new dslr and lens too!), and I've been looking closely at the Sony CX730 which I've sourced for £865.

I was also looking around and stumbled upon this panasonic. I can find very little info on it anywhere and on this site I expect its a grey import. I just don't get how something of this form factor can be this price?

Is it it really just an average consumer level camera stuck inside a professional style body?

ProCameraShop | Panasonic HDC-MDH1 Pro Camcorder - SD High Definition - Panasonic - Camcorders

It certainly looks the part. (Not that size matters).

Re: Shooting weddings with small handicams
 

I have owned this camera ... and you're right. Consumer level in a pro body. Good for the budget conscious people that need something that looks serious for what ever reason.

Here's my review on it.

Feel/look - Certainly looks heavy and looks the part. In reality it feels very cheap and plasticky (is that a word? lol) but again, looks the business.

Video quality - if your filming in adequate lighting, then it's fine! you can push the colours and make them pop in post production. However if your filming in low light scenarios i.e. Weddings ... forget about it ! awful awful awful for low light. And it has a really bad problem with white balance on auto ... it keeps changing on it's own! Also do not even think about moving the camera around ... it has SEVERE jello problems. It's only useable on a tripod, or if you remain still and let the subjects move around in the scene.

Verdict - certainly worth the money for looks and as a C cam ... may be have it on a tripod just to show you have a good pro looking camera in your arsenal but actually run around and get the work done with your DSLRs or other smaller professional handicams.

If you keep an eye out on ebay, they can be had for around £400 in next to new condition. Which technically speaking is peanuts considering I spend that much on a single lens.

Re: Shooting weddings with small handicams
 

Thanks for the info James! Low light is a must so I'll stay well clear! Strange thing though that google seems unable to give me any low light specific comparisons for handicams.

Its like its not even a thing to want good low light quality. Normally the web is overflowing with top ten lists and the like. I can find no definitive expert analysis on this requirement by anyone I would trust.

Noa, do you believe that your CX730s are the best low light handicaps available in that price range? What are the closest competitors?

Re: Shooting weddings with small handicams
 

low light test, the nex-ea50 and the 550d where with a 14mm f2.8 lens

Re: Shooting weddings with small handicams
 

That's actually incredible.

Re: Shooting weddings with small handicams
 

two things I need I need to mention, at 24db gain the cx730 switches to 1/25th shutter, both the other camera's where at 1/50. I would say the cx730 is about equally sensitive as the other camera's at 3200 iso with a f2.8 lens. Second thing is, once you start zooming you will loose sensitivity quickly.

Re: Shooting weddings with small handicams
 

Thanks Noa, thats very interesting indeed!

Re: Shooting weddings with small handicams
 

Hi Noa, I've been following this post for a while. I have the chance to buy a second hand CX730 but have been looking at the Panasonic AC90 too.
I'm not worried about audio here, more concerned with moving around filming guests outside and the OIS on the 730 sounds great. My AC160 is just too heavy for that to keep smooth.
What would you go for in that situation?
What do you do for ND's on the 730?

Re: Shooting weddings with small handicams
 

For filming guests at a reception I use a large sensor camera, my cx730 are mainly for the ceremony, usually anything that requires a 2 or 3 camera set up when I am working alone. And no nd's, I just handle the exposure manually and let the camera ride the shutterspeed, that means very high shutterspeeds in bright sunlight (if it's a outdoor ceremony) but that I don't find an issue.

Re: Shooting weddings with small handicams
 

My general obeservation about using small handicams is that there is good and bad. The good is that technological improvements the last few years have resulted in handicams with amazing high def images. The bad is that the processing circuitry is not near as complex and good as that in more expensive professional or semi pro cameras.

For years I have used first a Canon HV20 and recently a Canon M301 as a fixed backup camera and alternate audio source along with my two Sony V1U cameras.

If the handicams are on a fixed, locked down shot adjusted for the lighting conditions,etc then they deliver a beautiful pic that cuts in great with footage from the more expensive cameras. The problem is if you are using them as a roving cam where they are exposed to a lot of different light levels and other rapidly changing conditions on automatic they tend to react too swiftly and make very obvious iris or gain changes. On manual their cumbersome menu driven controls mean you cannot adjust on the fly.

This is just my experience but my two cents is that for live, no second take events, I would want to have at least semi pro cameras for most applications.

Re: Shooting weddings with small handicams
 

I have worked with a sony vx2100, dvx100b, sony fx1000, canon xh-a1 and now own a sony nex-ea50, canon 550d, sony xr520, sony cx730.

Which one would I choose in a situation where I had one shot to get it right with no set-up time? My sony cx730.

The only thing you need to handle manually with this camera is exposure and that is buttersmooth and easily adjustable with the small front knob, the cx730 has the best auto focus capabilities of any camera I worked with, even auto whitebalance is the best I ever used, very accurate. Exposure I find critical to get right and eventhough the camera get's it pretty right as well, pretty isn't good enough for me, it has to be dead on.

In a controlled environment I agree with you, I rather settle for a "real" videocamera and do it all manual but the small sony has been by far my best "get it now and don't mess up the shot" kind of camera, it's like a Swiss knife, it even has a build in videolight. For a solo shooter a handicam such as this, whether it's a panasonic, canon or sony is a must have in your toolbag when you do weddings.

Re: Shooting weddings with small handicams
 

Noa, i'm convinced ...

Tempted to buy a CX730 now or an equivalent.

Re: Shooting weddings with small handicams
 

Me too, but I can't find one. Anyone know of a model available with similar ability?

Re: Shooting weddings with small handicams
 

It depends what you understand with similar ability, there are some features on this camera that no other brand has like the very wide angle lens and advanced stabilisation. The Sony is very good at some points but has several weak points as well that need to be considered.

Good:
-very wide angle lens (26,5mm)
-very good low light performance
-very low image noise at highest gains
-good picture profile, not too much contrast and saturation so easier to match with other camera's in post
-very good image stabilization
-very smooth zoom (but requires a delicate controll)
-very good autowhitebalance
-very good autofocus, even in very low light
-the small dial on front of the camera has very good response
-fast startup time
-hours of recording time with the largest sony battery
-has zebra's, peaking, screen magnifies when setting focus manually
-build in videolight
-3 assignable functions on the touch screen, work very well for quick changes (I have ois - to set on or off, whitebalance and focus assigned to it.

bad
-the image can get soft in one corner at several focal lengths, looks like out of focus, it doesn't always appear. I have seen reports about this for the nx70 as well.
-the image is sharp, but not pinsharp like a ex1
-you can only assign one function to the dial so you can't lock the shutter and controll exposure at the same time.
-no nd's results in very high shutterspeeds in sunlight
-eventhough if the autofous is very good, if it looses focus it can have a hard time to recover.
-manual controlling more then one function is limited, you do have to rely more on the autofunction then you"d like to, it does what it needs to do most of the time but don't expect wonders to happen.
-touch focus is unreliable when zoomed in
-it ramps quickly when zoomed in meaning it looses it low light capability once you start zooming.
-sound is ok for most situations and mainly for ambient sound but you are much better off using a dedicated sound recorder.
-Sony has this hotshoe that only fit's their stuff so you need to get a adapter to add non sony accessories

Re: Shooting weddings with small handicams
 

Oh my goodness Noa this thread has 24,450 views and 189 response, and it still going up. Congratulations on your never ending post.

A fellow shooter friend of mine was asking me if he could buy my buy CX550, I said thanks but no thanks,
this is the last of the very best piece I've ever had, a collectors item. I may not be using it, but I will pass this on to my kids.

This fellow already had (2) CX730 and still looking for another piece. We shoot a wedding last week and he placed the CX on a monopod, and went around the couple and raise the monopod up and down simulating the Glidecam while doing the first dance, I look at the result of his shot and indeed it was like shot from the Glidecam, with a little slowmo on the post. INCREDIBLE!

Re: Shooting weddings with small handicams
 

Noa, the cx730 sold for £750 on ebay tonight so I passed on it. However, the NX30 has also caught my interest and there are a few of those for sale. I don't know why the 730 is so difficult to find in the UK. If you ever want to sell one of your 730's I'd be interested...I'm not that far from you, I could get on the Ostend ferry from where I live.
Seriously though, I'm really impressed with that camera.

Re: Shooting weddings with small handicams
 

The 730 was I think not more then a year on sale before it got replaced, the current model (
Sony Handycam HDR-PJ780VE) is over 500 euro more expensive then what I paid for mine but it does have internal memory and a gimmicky projector. Biggest improvement on that one is the audio. That model was also rated as best camera in a known and established Belgian test magazine.

750 pounds for a used cx730 is more then what I paid for it new. I"m afraid mine won't be for sale any time soon :)

Re: Shooting weddings with small handicams
 

Not suprised you can mimmick glidecam shots with the stabilization on this thing!

@ Noa

How much did you pay in the equivalent of £££ pounds ... when you bought it new?

Re: Shooting weddings with small handicams
 

Littlewoods, have a refurbished one on sale on ebay at the moment with 12 months warranty ... im tempted.

Re: Shooting weddings with small handicams
 

I paid 590 pound tax not included

Re: Shooting weddings with small handicams
 

Felling a bit guilty James, I hope you weren't too tempted.

I kind of just bought that one...

Sorry! (but cheers for the heads up.)

It was reduced from £820 to 700, and then a further 15% off at checkout down to £600!

The only other place I saw it was tesco direct at £865!

I'm well happy!!

Re: Shooting weddings with small handicams
 

Clive don't worry ... I just bagged a pre-owned one for £500 through Gumtree after a little negotiation with the seller.

I was going to buy the Littlewoods one, but thought do you know what ... refurbished and used, whats the difference, not a lot other than the fact i've saved £100 more!

Both of us are owners of this handicam now ... can't wait for it to arrive :) mine should be here tomorrow.

Re: Shooting weddings with small handicams
 

Nice one James! Noa will be proud!

Re: Shooting weddings with small handicams
 

Don't forget folks that the Panasonic TM900 and successors easily compete with the Sony - just that Noa uses the Sony whereas many of us use the Panny's. Likewise they are well known performers and can command a lot of demand and high prices for pre-owned units.

One of my three TM900's is an ex-demo and it actually performs marginally better than the others that were purchased brand new.

Ebay prices can be strange, with people paying almost as much as the brand new price of some goods. One of my pre-owned Sennheiser G3 sets saved me around £100 on the then new price and now its more like £200 as Senny hiked up their prices recently. But other G3's have sold at only £30 - £40 short of the new price which was £415.

Pete