Canon 70-200mm F/4 vs. F/2.8 for Ceremony

[Paul Ekert]

How about the 600d with a 24-105 f4 for an indoor wedding. This will be the roving camera.

Okay or not?

[Robert Benda]

Originally Posted by Paul Ekert

How about the 600d with a 24-105 f4 for an indoor wedding. This will be the roving camera.

Okay or not?

Fine, I guess, though the 600D is worse in every measurable except maybe the swivel screen being convenient compared to a 5d Mark ii.

The 24mm will still be 40mm equivalent on the crop factor, which is not wide, but still pretty convenient. You'd need Magic Lantern to give you access to some features, like Kelvin white balance and audio meters.

For not a lot more money, the 70D gives you focus tracking, which you'd want STM lenses to use with. Makes run and gun much easier, and gives you better ISO performance and 30 minute recording (it breaks the files into 4GB pieces for you). Canon's STM lenses are cheap, but the primes (28mm and 40mm) are of fair quality considering they're $150 each.

[Michael Silverman]

Depending on how dark the interior is, an F/4 lens my not be fast enough with the 600D. I own the Canon 24-105 F/4 and while it says it's a constant aperture, when you zoom in the image gets a bit darker. The two lenses that Robert mentioned are a full stop faster so they'll let in at least twice as much light than the Canon 24-105 F/4. This would be very helpful when the interior is fairly dim.

Another option is that Canon will be announcing a fairly inexpensive 4K camera call the XC-10 in a few weeks. This camera will have approximately a 1" sensor which will allow you to get a shallow depth of field when zoomed in (just like Sony's X70). If the camera ends up being pretty good in low light then this could be a nice option as it will give you a very sharp image with the internal 4K, the ability to obtain a shallow depth of field, and also a power zoom which can be helpful at times.

If you're looking at getting an F/4 lens then it may be helpful to get a camera that's quite good in low light. The Canon 6D would be a great option because it's fairly inexpensive right now and is great in low light. So if you walk into a church that is very dim you can bump up the ISO to 3200 (or maybe higher) and the image will look good. If you do see some grain in the image after raising the ISO, you can purchase Neat Video or Red Giant's Denoiser II which will clean up the footage very easily.

[Adrian Tan]

Originally Posted by Paul Ekert

How about the 600d with a 24-105 f4 for an indoor wedding. This will be the roving camera.

Hi Paul, this is just my opinion, but I wouldn't walk into a reception with f/4 only. As long as you've got at least a 50 prime to go with that 24-105, you should be alright. I think I wrote this earlier, but there's plenty of situations where I've been at f/2.8, 6400 ISO, 30 shutter on my Mk3s and still been starving for light. 2.8 has almost always been manageable for me -- just -- but nothing like the image you'd get from faster primes. But whether f/4 or f/2.8 are enough for you does depend on how dark the receptions get around your area, and what sort of noise you're willing to put up with.

On the other hand, videographers have been managing for decades with cameras that weren't great at night time. So, f/4 is okay providing you're willing to blast people with light.

Three more quick thoughts: (1) for dancing, I think you should try to stay at 50 shutter rather than squeeze more light out by dropping to 30 -- the motion blur may hurt your eyes; (2) definitely avoid high ISO whenever you can. It's not just the noise; it's also things like colour. Much better to give your camera enough light by opening the aperture than to starve it of light and then ask it to make the best of what it's got; (3) if you really want f/4, there's always the a7s option...

[Robert Benda]

Paul, I hadn't considered how the f/4 is really closer to f/5.6 on a crop factor. Then you've got the issue with the ISO on the 600D not being able to push as far as a lot of other cameras. Its been a while for me, but I think we never went above ISO 1600 on our T3i, if we could help it.

I have a decent number of ceremonies where that wouldn't cut it, never mind receptions.

[Paul Ekert]

Thank you all for the time spent replying to my question. I seem to have opened a can of worms with this and my apologies to the OP for hijacking the thread with my query. Forgive me for a few follow up remarks:

Originally Posted by Robert Benda

Fine, I guess, though the 600D is worse in every measurable except maybe the swivel screen being convenient compared to a 5d Mark ii.

For not a lot more money, the 70D gives you focus tracking....

There is a significant price jump here. To move from the 600D to the 70D would in fact be twice the cost (in the UK - 300 odd pounds to 600 odd) and to get to the 5d iii would be an even larger leap. It's maybe something I can aspire to, but at the moment I am going to need to use the 600D.

Originally Posted by Michael Silverman

Another option is that Canon will be announcing a fairly inexpensive 4K camera call the XC-10 in a few weeks. This camera will have approximately a 1" sensor which will allow you to get a shallow depth of field...

I've googled this up by can't find any mention of it. I'm assuming it's going to be a 4 or 5 thousand dollar camera though, in which case that's going to be a hire only item for me for sometime.

Originally Posted by Adrian Tan

Hi Paul, this is just my opinion, but I wouldn't walk into a reception with f/4 only. As long as you've got at least a 50 prime to go with that

I do have the nifty fifty, I also have a 2.8 28-70 sigma, but it tends to be soft at 2.8. I will have to lurk around my local church at random times of the day to see what sort of results these give me. But yes, unless it is a bright church, the F4 sounds as though it won't be up to the job, and as it only gives me a little more reach than the sigma it might not be a sound investment at this stage.

Originally Posted by Robert Benda

Paul, I hadn't considered how the f/4 is really closer to f/5.6 on a crop factor. Then you've got the issue with the ISO on the 600D not being able to push as far as a lot of other cameras. Its been a while for me, but I think we never went above ISO 1600 on our T3i, if we could help it.

I have a decent number of ceremonies where that wouldn't cut it, never mind receptions.

I haven't seen this effect where the crop factor also effected aperture as well as the field of view. I've also experimented with ISO and filming at 1600 seems to be about the max my camera can cope with.

[Robert Benda]

Paul, is the price difference still true for a gently used 70D? That is what I was suggesting. Better to figure out a way to get the more useful camera now rather than buy the 600D and then replace that after a year or two. That was a mistake we made.

The money will be saved on your lenses, then. If you want facial tracking auto focus on the 70D, you use the STM lenses. All 4 of the most useful together will still cost less than the 24-105 f/4. I would suggest the pancake lenses, 28mm and 40mm f/2.8; and the 28-135mm STM, and the 55-250mm STM for long reach. We also use a Sigma macro 17-70mm f/2.8-4 and the 50mm f/1.8 or 35mm f/2 for when the f/2.8 won't cut it.

Remember that the crop factor effects everything, so that aperture rating set for a full frame is not the same for a crop factor. Photographer Tony Northrup has a decent explanation to show how the differences pop up. You can find the video pretty easily.

[Paul Ekert]

Sorry, not making myself clear here, I already own and use the 600d. To be honest I've not found the manual focusing yo be that much of a problem.

[Michael Silverman]

Paul, if you want to get a variety of shots during the ceremony with the 600D then you'll probably want a fast zoom lens that will be sharp wide open. Unfortunately, I've found (like you've seen with the Sigma 28-70 F/2.8) that many of the cheaper F/2.8 zooms are fairly soft wide open and only get sharp when you stop them to around F/4. I bought the Tamron 28-75 F/2.8 for my 70D last year but it ended up being extremely soft on my 70D unless it was stopped down to at least F/4. The reason I bought the lens was to for the extra stop of light but it didn't not provide what I was hoping for.

From my experience, if you want a fast zoom lens that lets you shoot wide open and retain sharpness then it's best to go with one of the pricier zoom lenses. I know that the Canon 70-200mm F/2.8 and the Canon 24-70mm F/2.8 are very sharp when wide open. I have heard that then Canon 17-55mm F/2.8 is pretty sharp wide open, but you may want to do some research on it or rent it because it's probably not as sharp as either of the first two I mentioned. There are likely other ones out there but those are the three that I'm most familiar with because I've looked into buying them.

Since this is a roving camera for you, the other option is to use your 50mm prime and then purchase the Canon 85mm F/1.8 and perhaps the Canon 28mm F/1.8 and then swap lenses when you want to get a tighter or wider shot. I've found that even when just stopped down to F/2.0 these lenses are quite sharp and also a full stop faster than almost any zoom lens. It's not ideal swapping lenses, but you get used to it after a while and you will also be able to get some very nice bokeh when shooting at F/2.0.

Regarding the Canon XC-10, here's a link to the specs on the camera:

XC10 « Canon Rumors

The rumored price is around $2K US street price which I think is very reasonable. However, you'll want to wait until test footage comes out to see how well it does in low light. My guess is that with a 1" sensor it will be fine for most ceremonies, but I doubt it will be something you can use at most receptions.

If you want the solution to allow you to shoot at receptions and dimly lit churches then I would go with a couple of Canon prime lenses because you'll be able to let in the most light to your camera and they won't break the bank as long as you don't go for the L series primes.

[Paul Ekert]

Isn't it a shame that Tamron and Sigma 2.8 lenses don't measure up to Canon L glass when wide open?

I guess I will need to hire again. I have hired the 24-70 2.8L from Lens for hire (great company to hire from in the UK by the way) and although I loved the image quality, the lens itself was built like a tank and had a Lens Hood that looked as though it had escaped from a wind tunnel (or clown circus act). But a great lens.

I wonder though if I am hiring if I would not be better off with the 70-200 2.8L and use that as the CU camera, with another giving me my wide shot. I would favour hiring an L zoom rather than buying several primes, even though I love my 50 1.8 and would love the 85 1.8, I am not sure I want to be changing them during a live event.

See OP, I am almost back on topic to this thread :)

And now to veer off again :)

Are there rumours of a 80D? Just in case the 70D might start to price crash. Also, what about rumours of a 800D that might have some of the focus tracking of the 70D?

[Michael Silverman]

A friend of mine has the Canon 70-200mm F/2.8 and it's an amazing lens. I would suggest using the IS version as I've found out with my 70-200 F/4 IS, the IS can be invaluable even if you're on a tripod. Any slight movement to the camera when zoomed in will result in very annoying vibrations in the footage. With the IS on these vibrations are minimized if not removed completely.

Since the 70D came out quite recently I would be surprised if an 80D will show up this year. However, there are rumors of several new Canon DSLRs so it's possible they might include the 80D in the bunch. From what we saw in the 7D Mk II and C100 Mk II, it appears that canon wants to put face tracking and Dual Pixel AF in many of their DSLR and Cinema cameras, so I wouldn't be surprised if any new DSLRs (beside maybe the absolute entry level ones) will have both of these features.

I think that after CP+ and NAB are over then everyone will have a much clearer picture of what Canon (and others) will be offering. Many people are speculating that Canon is not focused on delivering a DSLR that is packed with video features because they want people to buy their EOS Cinema cameras. It's a good marketing strategy but it hurts people who have been using their DSLRs over the past 6 years.

[Adrian Tan]

Originally Posted by Paul Ekert

Isn't it a shame that Tamron and Sigma 2.8 lenses don't measure up to Canon L glass when wide open?

Hi Paul, just wanted to add that, in the scheme of things, this is probably not a difference that will translate into money. I mean, I'm sceptical using Tamron rather than Canon will lose you sales, or using Canon rather than Tamron will increase your sales.

For your personal satisfaction, then sure, buy the Canon, or buy both! From a business point of view, buy whatever's cheapest that will get the job done.

Now, if I could only listen to my own advice...

[Steven Digges]

Gentlemen,

I have used the Canon 70-200L F2.8 for many years. I have covered everything from major sporting events to dark receptions with it. I have used it for stills and video. It is my most often used lens and I would never not have it with me on any assignment. I have three Canon “L” 2.8 zooms and they are worth every penny. All of them are tack sharp at f2.8. My rule of thumb is buy the best glass you can possibly afford.

Bottom line – You can set a F2.8 lens to f4 but you cannot set a F4 to F2.8 I have been in countless situations where having the extra stop meant the difference between getting the shot or not.

Michael, you asked “does the Canon f2.8 have a tendency to have a shallow DOF a lot?” The answer is, only if you shoot in automatic modes. It is a mechanical device that should be controlled by the shooter. Understanding DOF and controlling it is very important to me. Get it wrong and it can destroy your shot, as you mentioned. Get it right and it is an awesome compositional tool to improve the look of your video. In many cases shooting in auto modes sacrifices the videographers control over composition.

Tripods and IS: The rule of thumb is OFF because IS can destroy your composition if your subject is moving and you are following him/her. For a static shot like people standing still at the altar it is ok to leave ON for the reasons already motioned. You guys might want to try this. By using a tripod you can actually SEE your IS in action. Setup your tripod with the tension levels at your preferred settings for tracking someone pacing back and forth. When someone is given a wireless handheld mic and asked to give a speech it is common for some of them to start pacing back and forth if space permits, especially if they are on a stage. With each one of your cameras and lenses (they will be different) have someone pace back and forth in about a fifteen foot line in front of you and shoot tight while smoothly tracking them. With IS on it will make you crazy because when they stop to change direction you will SEE the image drift. If your tight and trying to be smooth they may drift out of the frame! That is why the rule is OFF. Some of you may be surprised to find out your IS only works on the horizontal plane and has little or no effect on the vertical plane. It depends on the camera, lens and type of IS. By trying this test you will learn just how much your IS can change composition. There are very few electronic tools on our cameras that are worthy of being kept on all the time, IS is no different. It is all about knowing when to use it and which mode is best if you have options.

I know wedding speeches are given from lecterns, while seated at tables and every other imaginable situation. Here is a tip when you do get that guy that moves around and you must track them. Whatever they do in the first minute is what they will keep doing. If they are a mover they will fall into a rhythm and keep doing it. This is important to us because as soon as you have recognized their rhythm you can anticipate their movements for smoother tracking.

[Paul Ekert]

Steven, you have a familiar name. Did we work together on the Avid Liquid beta program?

Thanks for the clarification on IS and when you think it's best to use it. Always good to know these things up front. As a general rule I usually turned mine off when the camera was tripod mounted, but had it back on for hand held or monopod mounted. I'll have to experiment some more and see what results I get.

[Brian David Melnyk]

I have a 5dmii, 600d, and 70d. I have found the 70d to be significantly better in low light than the 600d (600d at 800 ISO is starting to fall apart a bit), and with the flip screen and dual pixel AF, it is a pleasure to work with run and gun compared to the 5dmii.
So the 70d has become my A camera. I have a 70-200 2.8 IS and it is a wonderful lens, but for run and gun, the 24-105 is always on the 70d, even in dark events up to 3200 ISO. Neat video works some magic to make some very usable footage.
If Canon releases a FF with dual pixel AF, flip screen and better codec, I would definitely buy it and stick with Canon.
Otherwise, other brands are looking pretty tempting...