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-   -   A turning point in video/photo packages? (https://www.dvinfo.net/forum/wedding-event-videography-techniques/526592-turning-point-video-photo-packages.html)

Noa Put January 31st, 2015 03:12 AM

Re: A turning point in video/photo packages?
 
Quote:

When I asked her why, she said it was because they offered both photo and video and they didn't want to deal with two companies
I think there are 2 different clients, you have the ones that want "a" video and "a" photocoverage of their day, they don"t care who shoots it and they just want it to be easy on themselves and they hope by getting a combined package they can get a discount as well, they don't want to take the time to visit 2 different people while one just can offer both. They also often look for someone close to their homes so they don't have to travel that far and wast time when they visit.

Then you have the ones that want video and photo but they want person "x" to shoot video and person "y" to do the photo's and no-one else, so they will go to the photo and videoguy separately, even if it means traveling across the country. They don't care how much time it takes to be sure they pick someone that can capture their "once in a lifetime experience" in a way they have seen from that persons work on his site or maybe from a friends wedding.

If your client picks another company because they offer both it can mean that your work is not better then the other company and/or the other one is cheaper.

Chris Harding January 31st, 2015 06:04 AM

Re: A turning point in video/photo packages?
 
I still feel that booking a dual package from one company brides figure they are getting a better deal as they don't have to book each service (with the associated setup or minimum cost involvement)

We offer video, photography or a combo of both ... most packages (apart from the short video shoots) have two of us so it's more profitable for us to book combo shoots. In fact probably 90% of brides will book us for photo and video and the ones that don't either have already booked a photog or a friend is doing the stills

I haven't had any brides yet who have enquired and talked to us about a combo package and then changed their mind and booked just the one .... the exception might be a bride who has "fallen in love with a photogs work" and also wants video but most be always enquire on the combo package.

I'm pretty sure that Roger has the same sort of booking rate

James Manford January 31st, 2015 07:15 AM

Re: A turning point in video/photo packages?
 
Brides will always seek a dual package. Saves a lot of hassle booking services from two different people.

With that said, I also think the photog and videog service providers need to build a tight nit network where we can share clients with each other rather than be stingy, it's the only way to ensure sustainability in this industry and will also help many quit any 2nd jobs they have (like myself) to supplement income.

Roger Gunkel January 31st, 2015 02:08 PM

Re: A turning point in video/photo packages?
 
There are a lot of negative comments about dual packages from those that have never offered it for many different reasons. There are also assumptions being made which are not based on facts, so consider this point. A potential client looks at our videos, looks at our still photos, then goes away. They then look at other dedicated photographer's and videographer's work, so that they can get a pretty good idea of what is available and how it fulfils their expectations. they then book us because they love our video and photography and our way of working. Does that mean that we are offering something inferior or to a poorer standard? If that were the case we just would not get the work for the joint package, end of story.

Just because many here say that it will be poorer, just means that they don't understand how I work and what standard I achieve. I totally agree that there are certain types of unlimited video and photography that I would be unable to match with a joint package or separate shoot for that matter, just as many others here would find. How many here can match what people like Ray Roman produce, so are we saying that their product is sub standard unless they meet that level, no of course not. It is up to the client to make a choice based on the quality of work that they have seen and not for forum members to pre judge what that standard would or should be be.

Roger

Roger Gunkel January 31st, 2015 02:32 PM

Re: A turning point in video/photo packages?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by James Manford (Post 1875308)
Brides will always seek a dual package. Saves a lot of hassle booking services from two different people.

With that said, I also think the photog and videog service providers need to build a tight nit network where we can share clients with each other rather than be stingy, it's the only way to ensure sustainability in this industry and will also help many quit any 2nd jobs they have (like myself) to supplement income.

Brides won't always look for a dual package, as many will want a photographer and/or a videographer whose work they admire or have been recommended to.

I also don't see that there is any requirement from photographers to build a tight nit network to benefit them and videographers. In fact many seem to consider that videographers are intruding into their traditional territory. Given that photographers already have over 90% of the wedding market compared with about 10% in the UK for videographers, why should they want to help us? I see quite the opposite with a growing number of photographers offering video to reduce our share even further.

As regards stability of employment, what about all those people who used to be employed in companies developing films, offering enprints and all the other pre digital camera jobs that were lost. Let alone those making tape for video cameras and working in tape rental shops etc. Technology and the world moves on and people's requirements change. Those of us in the wedding video business need to be developing ways of expanding our lowly 10% rather than ways to help the poor photographer.

Everyone with a reasonable stills camera wants to be a photographer and escape the conventional work drudgery and the easiest way to do that they think, is to start shooting weddings. At the last wedding show I was at, there were 10 photographers, and 4 more who were offering video aswell. According to the organisers they have an ongoing waiting list of 27 other photographers who want to get in to the show.

Roger

Chris Harding January 31st, 2015 06:28 PM

Re: A turning point in video/photo packages?
 
Good points Roger

We must have close to 20 times the photogs in our area compared to videographers. Young women especially will finish school, take a 6 month photo course at the local TAFE and zappo they are now fully fledged wedding photographers and since Daddy has already bought them a couple of DSLR's they are ready for business and literally flood the market! Ok so we have a lot but not that many have much experience either so they are all fighting for business.

Despite the surplus of photogs, we still get most of our enquiries for dual packages and I honestly think that the convenience side does play a big part in it ... We have a competitor here who is even more popular ...why? he is a photog and DJ and his wife is a videographer so they can offer a 3-in-1 package making bridal choices even easier.

As long as ones work is up to scratch (it doesn't have to be stunningly creative) brides I think will gravitate towards dual (or even triple) packages for pure convenience sake

Chris

Roger Gunkel February 1st, 2015 12:22 PM

Re: A turning point in video/photo packages?
 
Hi Chris, yes quality is important but convenience and having one company that they feel comfortable is also a big selling point.

We had another wedding show today, much smaller than the last one, but again we were overwhelmed all day with enquiries. Everyone loved the dual package and we reserved two dates at the show and took a booking from someone who insisted they wanted to book us inspite of us not wanting to take bookings at shows.

Notably, there was a very showy upmarket photographer there, who one of my reserved video couples had decided to book. They had a meeting with me this week and I was there for over an hour. They also had a meeting with the photographer. Us and the photographer were both at the wedding show today and we were delighted to see them and talked about their dogs and the family. They then said that the photographer had been quite blunt and rude to them once he felt that he had their business, and they had begun to feel quite uncomfortable with him. The result was that they had decided to book our dual package as they felt that we were genuinely interested in them and their requirements, whereas they felt the other guy was only interested in the money. That says to me that how you relate to your clients is equally as important as the product you are selling..

There were only 25 exhibitors at the show, of which 5 were photographers and us as the only video company.

Roger

Steve Burkett February 2nd, 2015 01:12 AM

Re: A turning point in video/photo packages?
 
The problem for me and I'm sure for many solo Videographers and Photographers, is that to add a dual package, it is preferable to have another person, even if occasionally to assist on larger Weddings. Now if I happened to know a like minded individual who was willing to join me, which I don't, how do I secure this extra person. The best and most reliable means is to be married to such a person, but that's kind of hard to manufacture. Do I put an add on Craigslists, 'Single Male Videographer seeks female Photographer for marriage and life long Business Partnership'; no, perhaps not.
Hiring freelances means that work isn't yours and therefore not really marketable as a joint Business, not to mention you couldn't guarantee a particular freelancer. Leaving me with only one option and that is to hire an up and coming Photographer. The only issue with that is if they suddenly decided to leave and you've got to inform all your upcoming clients that they'll be getting a different Photographer for their Wedding. I can't see many taking that kindly.

So the answer for me and I'm sure many others is to keep going it alone and try to juggle both. Now Roger aside, how many out there can really pull that off without a drop in quality. Just because Roger can do this, doesn't translate everyone can. Frankly, there are plenty of Photographers and Videographers who've yet to master their one Profession; does the Wedding Industry need them to start juggling another, no.

Whilst there are couples out there looking for the convenience of hiring both, I still predict there to be many that will value the advantages of hiring 2 separate companies. The only thorn is that many joint Businesses do both at ridiculously low prices. It's not hard to see how they get Business and it's tough to compete for cash strapped Couples. I offer a Marryoke add on, which is a 30% increase on my Wedding Video Price, so if I did offer Photography, it should given the extra work involved be at least an increase of 50%, only less if I was supplying Photos unedited. Anything lower is a discount in all but name. When I see Photographers adding Video to the tune of £300, just what are they offering to justify such a low price. With photos I can at least have a no edit option, but that can't be the case here. Yes it's extra income, yes it's a good marketing ploy and yes it must give them a creative buzz on the day, but it's also potentially a lot of hours in the editing suite. I wonder if they'll still charge £300 after their 50th Wedding Video or whether they'll still offer it all.

I've got a Wedding fayre later this month, so I'll be checking out the Photographers work too. I'm intrigued to know just what sort of video they're really coming up with. That is if they're offering video at all.

Chris Harding February 2nd, 2015 02:22 AM

Re: A turning point in video/photo packages?
 
Very very true Steve

The only really practical method is use your wife!! Now your ad was just a tiny bit wrong. It should read as follows :

"Good looking virile videographer seeks a female with a good camera and lot's of talent for marriage and business partnership. Photo of yourself isn't necessary but a photo and specs on the camera is essential as well as an extensive portfolio of your work"

Might as well go for broke and get a REALLY talented lass.

Chris

Roger Gunkel February 2nd, 2015 05:41 AM

Re: A turning point in video/photo packages?
 
Love the ad idea Steve :-0. You are right of course that the most reliable partner is one you are married to and I also fully accept that few videographers or photographers will want to take on the challenge of offering a dual solo package.

I think that given the skill to shoot good stills or video separately is not just a matter of taking both lots of equipment along, it is about rethinking your whole set up and working methods. It is not difficult if you have both skills but you need to practice and be very confident before taking on a dual assignment, and as I said, certainly not for everyone.

I do think though that 4k and 8k is going to be the final turning point, where any of the thousands of video frames may be used as a still while maintaining high quality. That will remove the need for separate cameras for a dual package and will simply mean that the person taking the video will also organise the poses and groups at the appropriate parts of the day. I don't see that being a particularly big step for those of us already taking video, but maybe more so for photographers wanting to add the skills of videography to their repertoire. Framing, posing and visual flow, being the three main skills that will need to be incorporated with a combined package, with an understanding of the technical aspects of lighting, aperture, exposure etc being common to both and probably a basic understanding of sound recording.

Roger

Chris Harding February 2nd, 2015 05:53 AM

Re: A turning point in video/photo packages?
 
A few years ago I tried the route of getting an assistant for both video and photography so we could share duties. I have no idea what they teach students at media courses but my last lady had a 5 year Uni course PLUS a few years as a media teacher so technically she was ideal. I sent her off to do bridal prep on video plus take a few simple groups of the guys on stills!!

Absolutely hopeless!! Even the most basic videographer would know NOT to film guys in a dark room standing against a huge sun filled picture window. The stills were just as morbid ..she stood them against a wall and shot with direct flash. After that I gave up and coaxed my wife into doing weddings ..after a while she really started to enjoy them (better than sitting alone at home while hubby is at a wedding) and her idea of an open photobooth with props is a hit with the brides too.

So Steve, you either shoot alone OR we find you a wife ..that's about the size of it. I'm sure Roger would be glad to shoot your wedding too!!

Noa Put February 2nd, 2015 06:19 AM

Re: A turning point in video/photo packages?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Roger Gunkel (Post 1875501)
I do think though that 4k and 8k is going to be the final turning point, where any of the thousands of video frames may be used as a still while maintaining high quality.

It will be a lot easier to pull high quality frames but I"m sure this will never be of any threat to a higher end photographer, video and photo require a totally different approach. You could just shoot video, extract stills from that and sell it as a separate photo package but you will be serving a group that doesn't have so high expectations, that have a small budget but that are happy with some simple photo's which is fine if that is what you are aiming for. Photography is more then resolution only.

Steve Burkett February 2nd, 2015 07:29 AM

Re: A turning point in video/photo packages?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Harding (Post 1875496)

"Good looking virile videographer seeks a female with a good camera and lot's of talent for marriage and business partnership. Photo of yourself isn't necessary but a photo and specs on the camera is essential as well as an extensive portfolio of your work"

Might as well go for broke and get a REALLY talented lass.

Chris

It's so tempting to run that ad; it's such a totally bonkers idea that it could actually work. You hear all sorts of weird stories at Weddings at how people meet.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roger Gunkel (Post 1875501)
I think that given the skill to shoot good stills or video separately is not just a matter of taking both lots of equipment along, it is about rethinking your whole set up and working methods. It is not difficult if you have both skills but you need to practice and be very confident before taking on a dual assignment, and as I said, certainly not for everyone.

Roger

You also have to be emotionally invested in both professions and not just offer it to compete. I'm just not feeling the love for Photography as I do Videography. I did Photo/Video for a Corporate job yesterday and I'm not as happy when I'm shooting Photos as I am doing Video. Odd as I was a passionate Photographer 12 years ago.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Harding (Post 1875502)
So Steve, you either shoot alone OR we find you a wife ..that's about the size of it. I'm sure Roger would be glad to shoot your wedding too!!

I'll keep you posted. :)

Chris Harding February 2nd, 2015 08:03 AM

Re: A turning point in video/photo packages?
 
Hey Steve

The ad is an age old joke I adapted about a farmer who advertised for a wife with a tractor and said, please send picture of the tractor. Then again who knows? You might end up with a stunning blonde, and with all the gear and the talent. Maybe there IS someone out there thinking "I wish I could meet a nice video guy" .... Let's face it, shooting weddings is very anti-social for girlfriends or wives as they get stuck at home every weekend BUT find an avid photog with good looks and you are made!!

Funny I was a photog too for nearly 15 years (all film and 6x7 format mainly) and when video became practical I moved to the medium as I always had a burning desire to make movies...it's so much more than taking boring stills!!! To have a photog that I take with me is the answer.

Honestly, although I have done both I never liked it as it's simply too much trying to switch mindsets and do both!

OK, run the ad and let us know what happens ?? Seriously, If I was single and put an ad on a dating site I would certainly mention the photo side, working together etc etc rather than sitting at home being the equivalent of a golf widow. You never know!

Roger Gunkel February 2nd, 2015 08:29 AM

Re: A turning point in video/photo packages?
 
Steve - I suppose because I only offered the add on photography package comparatively recently, I can get emotionally involved in the stills aswell as it is something I love exploring. I still really enjoy the video, but after over 2000 weddings, it's great to add the excitement of photography with the closer interaction with those at the wedding.

Noa- I certainly wouldn't expect a videographer moving into 4k or 8k to just continue to work with his video head on and just lift stills from the video as a duel package. But there is absolutely no reason why the romantic poses that I would normally expect to take with a still camera, couldn't be taken by a 4k/8k video camera, without the faff of separate cameras and lenses. You would also be able to switch instantly from a nice pose to an establishing shot, or a pull back from a closeup to show more of the scene, movement etc. It needs a different approach as I said earlier, but certainly achievable.

I have lost count of the number of stills I have been asked to lift from HD video when the photographer failed to get a shot and I had not been thinking stills at all. There are a lot of crossovers in framing and shooting stills and video and it wouldn't take a lot more to be more specific about the stills to lift, providing you are competent at knowing how to pose people and frame for stills.

roger

Leon Bailey February 3rd, 2015 06:52 PM

Re: A turning point in video/photo packages?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Harding (Post 1875163)
Hi Leon

The only reason we do dual packages is that brides always book the photog first so we get looked at earlier which means there is a better chance of being booked and secondly we always know we have our own photog at the venue not some arrogant guy who thinks the entire wedding shoot is about him!!

Chris

You know what! I said to myself last week that I will start pushing photography and videography packages more because what you just said is true. Just to think, two weeks ago, I was debating dropping photography all together.



Quote:

Originally Posted by Noa Put (Post 1875226)
I have yet to see a trailer from someone that does both by themselves that captures the raw emotion from throughout the day in a compelling way, that's just not possible when you need to do both simultaneously, there often will be moments where you will be forced to choose to either take a picture or shoot video from a unexpected moment that won't repeat itself and which can make the difference in getting that killer photo or videorecording. It always will be a compromise, ofcourse it is possible but it will never be of the same standard compared to someone that dedicated his time to one thing only. I think this much we should be able to agree upon.

I haven't looked that far for those that do both solo, but I would lean towards your opinion on the matter.

Chris Harding February 3rd, 2015 07:36 PM

Re: A turning point in video/photo packages?
 
Hi Leon

I would say that pretty much 90% of my enquiries are for the dual package now so brides do like the idea. I think I did a grand total of 2 dual shoots on my own and they are VERY hard to do. It's tough having a video camera on a tripod, one on your shoulder and 2 DSLR's around your waste during the ceremony and still try to get video cutaways and stills that are half decent.. Even if you just have an assistant at the ceremony it helps as you cannot do both and capture the emotion. The photoshoot is easy to do solo as I do a stedicam shoot on video and all the rest is photography but with my wife, she takes the rest of the bridal party to one side and does shots with them while I'm doing the video shoot. I certainly wouldn't advise anyone to try to do both on their own!!

Chris

Roger Gunkel February 4th, 2015 05:23 AM

Re: A turning point in video/photo packages?
 
I certainly also wouldn't advise anyone to take on video and photos solo unless they are very competent at both disciplines and are geared up equipment wise to work solo. It is not a simply a matter of taking both lots of equipment with you.

As regards Noa's comment about it not being possible for anyone to offer a joint package to the standard of someone who is totally dedicated to one discipline. I would have to completely disagree as I have seen work from dedicated videographers and photographers that I would be embarrassed to put my name to. There are certainly those in both disciplines whose work I would not try to compete with however I worked, but that is as much about not liking their style and methodology as anything. What I do, I do well and clients are very happy with my work after comparing with other offerings. I also don't do trailers and would never post a video on the forum as I am not interested in what other professionals think of my work, or in having my ego massaged, they don't pay my bills. only clients and potential clients do that

Trying to compare one style with another is a pointless excercise as the only thing that matters is what your client wants, whether you can provide it and whether they can afford it. Opinions on this forum are interesting and sometimes entertaining, but in the real world the only thing that matters is whether the work is coming in, and after 30 years of weddings I'm very happy still :-)

Roger

Noa Put February 4th, 2015 05:40 AM

Re: A turning point in video/photo packages?
 
Quote:

As regards Noa's comment about it not being possible for anyone to offer a joint package to the standard of someone who is totally dedicated to one discipline. I would have to completely disagree as I have seen work from dedicated videographers and photographers that I would be embarrassed to put my name to.
Those I would like to see, do you have a link? (or even pm them to me if you don't want those other videographers site appear publicly) I also think that showing your work is not about having your ego massaged, I mean how else do you present your work to your clients if you don't share anything?

Noa Put February 4th, 2015 05:53 AM

Re: A turning point in video/photo packages?
 
Sorry, ignore my previous message as I misunderstood the first part, it is this part I am referring to:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roger Gunkel (Post 1875695)
There are certainly those in both disciplines whose work I would not try to compete with


So if that person would be the hired photographer at a wedding where you would be as well as videographer, would that mean that if he would send you home and take on your job as well on his own, he still would be doing a better job then you, how can one person doing 2 disciplines at the same time be any good or even better then someone who is dedicated to one job only?

Chris Harding February 4th, 2015 06:56 AM

Re: A turning point in video/photo packages?
 
Hi Noa

There seems to be some confusion here? Roger shoots video and Claire shoots stills. We do the same thing except during the stills photoshoot ,after I have finished my stedicam shoot I grab the second stills camera and help out a bit so I act as the assistant photog ... That's the only time we both do stills as I see it being pointless me sitting on my butt while she takes the stills.

With our weddings there is no time ever where either one of us is trying to shoot stills and video at the same time. I have a dedicated photographer and I'm a dedicated videographer ..I simply help out during the photoshoot and take some stills that might be used in her final batch or might not

That is a huge difference compared to a solo guy trying to do both

Chris

Noa Put February 4th, 2015 08:26 AM

Re: A turning point in video/photo packages?
 
I was under the impression we where talking about one person doing video and photo simultaneously, was that not the case Roger? When you work as a man/wife team that's completely different, in that case you have one person dedicated to each job.

Roger Gunkel February 4th, 2015 11:45 AM

Re: A turning point in video/photo packages?
 
There is lots of confusion going on here.

Noa, you have turned upside down my point on the dual package and the abilities of some photographers. There are photographers that use a lot of very sophisticated equipment above the level of most wedding photographers that I have worked with over the years. That may include assistants with various reflectors and lighting, indoor setups with studio facilities, collections of cameras and lenses beyond the norm, various assistants etc. They would also use props and poses beyond those used at most weddings. I wouldn't attempt to compete with that type of photography, neither would I want to do that sort of photography. It is what I would call top end and top price. Most photographers that I do and have worked with, would have no idea about shooting video so wouldn't be able to match my video whether they did it with or without photography! The same applies with top end video with multi operators, cranes, jibs, rails etc, not my thing I am afraid and not what I want to do or compete with. If I was shooting video using that type of setup, I wouldn't have time to do the stills, but the very quick and mobile way that I work and the setup of my equipment enables me to do both efficiently. Perhaps someone can suggest a typical wedding scenario that I would struggle to cover properly.

I produce to a level that I would expect to see from typical UK mid priced ordinary video and photography producers- competent video and photographic coverage. No matter how many ways you try to justify that I cannot possibly match the typical offerings of videographers and photographers, it is my clients that are the judge of what I offer and they are able to compare and make their own choice.

I can't give you any links to poor video and photos, and wouldn't if I could as it would not be ethical, but I see both at some wedding shows. I am not interested in spending my time looking at other people's sites, although I did see one a couple of months ago that showed horrendous video as a demo. I don't show any video on my site, I only show directly to clients at shows and on personal visits, showing complete videos rather than put together demos.

Chris I shoot dual packages both solo and with Claire, she also does the same. When we work together sometimes we swap video and photos, sometimes we concentrate on one and sometimes, Claire shoots video and stills at the bride's preps, while I am shooting both with the guys. It depends on the day and the circumstances, but if we only have one wedding booked, we both attend.

Roger

Roger Gunkel February 4th, 2015 12:07 PM

Re: A turning point in video/photo packages?
 
What is happening here is that most that think it is impossible to do both well, are looking at how they normally work with video, then imagining trying to also do what the photographer does. There is also a lot of comparison with top end videographers and photographers, which is not what I am talking about.

Working solo or with Claire, we are in total control of what we are doing and how we fit into the day. There is no fitting around the photographer, no competing for space and no trying to get a decent shot while he is working with his group or romantic shots. We can set up romantic and group shots when we are ready and take whatever time is necessary within the overall wedding schedule to fit in all the casual and formal shots, scene setting etc. Even during the groups, while people are getting in position, I am busy shooting what is going on around while I am waiting. The pace of the day within the fixed times of ceremony, meal, speeches etc is totally controlled by us.

When the couple exit the ceremony when a separate photographer is present, he will normally move quickly into getting group shots, making it a rush to pack up equipment without missing video footage. With the joint package, that is just one of the typical problems that is removed along with others too numerous to list. There is a lot to do for sure, but for me, I find it far less stressful than working with a photographer.

Roger

Noa Put February 4th, 2015 01:08 PM

Re: A turning point in video/photo packages?
 
I always work solo doing video only but I know my work is also a compromise in certain situations, I am able to deliver a decent product but I am very much aware I would be able to deliver a better product if I would have a dedicated second shooter with equal experience. If I would have to do video and photo combined by myself that would be a even bigger compromise in both areas, you can find a good balance but it would never be as good as having more dedicated persons, that's all I"m trying to say. I never will say I can do an equally good job as a team with 2 or 3 experienced people by myself, I just can't.

Steve Burkett February 4th, 2015 01:12 PM

Re: A turning point in video/photo packages?
 
Roger, I don't doubt you do both very well, but I think you're buttering your arguments a little too much. I do both a Wedding Video and Marryoke as a sole operator and have an inkling of the issues involved in balancing 2 things. Now I'm very proud of those days where I've pulled off both, but there are some days better than others. It really falls down to the things in the day that even the Photographer can't control. A Bride being late to the church, sometimes very late, stubborn caterers refusing to delay meals to accommodate, transport problems like the coach taking the guests from the Church to the Reception, dinner taking longer to serve, over-long Speeches, key guests disappearing when it's their turn to be photographed. Well perhaps the last one doesn't affect me, unless they've disappeared because they're being filmed for my Marryoke, in which case I make a quick exit to the loo.

But these issues I speak of, are hardly rare, or at least not in my case, maybe your experiences are different. Weddings never go according to plan and some go so far out of plan, it's all we can do just to keep up. I've seen toastmasters set a good pace for a day; I've met few Photographers who've kept the day moving, they're more interested in getting their shots. I think it's the moments where the day does go to pot that the compromise of offering 2 would show. It's certainly where it can show in my work when I do both Marryoke and Wedding Video. Do the clients notice, no of course not. I work too hard on the day and in the editing suite to let that happen, but it's there all the same, only noticeable to me as the Bride never ever sees what might have been.

Does it bother me that my Wedding Video is slightly compromised as a result of doing a Marryoke as well? Not really. It's business first, creative second. If there's such a thing as a hell and damnation for Wedding Videographers, perhaps I'll be judged harshly and confined with all those Photographers offering a Video add on service. On the other hand, my Bank Manager hasn't had need to call me in as of late, and he's much more frightening than anything the afterlife can conjure.

Roger Gunkel February 4th, 2015 04:42 PM

Re: A turning point in video/photo packages?
 
Steve, your last line sums it up well :-) last year was my best for 30 years and I am now getting confirmed bookings through 2016/17/18 which I have never experienced before. I have just returned from a video viewing tonight which turned into a booking. I was there for 90 minutes at their request and they had viewed 9 other video companies without finding what they wanted.

I won't bother to go into why the others all missed out because it will just cover old ground again, but suffice it to say it wasn't the cost. I'm very happy with our product and if clients continue to feel the same I will remain a very happy man :-)

I find it interesting that you are able to manage a Marryoke on the wedding day, because I would find putting the time into that impossible without severely compromising my video. Maybe your abilities enable you to do that successfully without noticeable compromise to the video, just as my duel package does with me.

Roger

Steve Burkett February 4th, 2015 05:20 PM

Re: A turning point in video/photo packages?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Roger Gunkel (Post 1875754)

I find it interesting that you are able to manage a Marryoke on the wedding day, because I would find putting the time into that impossible without severely compromising my video. Maybe your abilities enable you to do that successfully without noticeable compromise to the video, just as my duel package does with me.

Roger

Doing both can compromise both, if you have a Wedding that doesn't give you room to breath. I've got one this Saturday. I'm not sure which side this one will fall into; it's hard to tell. Timetables not as good as I'd like. If the Bride is late to church, the Photo Session video coverage takes a knocking. A few less beauty shots of guests drinking their drinks, chatting and having their photos taken. It's flavour shots, mostly to give the Bride and Groom shots of Guests who'll have starring roles in a music video anyway. You lose a few nuances, but maintain the substance. Personally I prefer doing just the Video, but it's market to be tapped and I do it well so I've been told. On the one hand it's an insult to my creative side that hates those sort of videos, on the other hand it's given me the best laughs when filming and pushes me out of my comfort zone.

Thing is, if people say either my video or Marryoke are compromised when I'm doing both, I say yes, but filming Weddings alone are themselves compromised; it's just a question of degrees. As long as I have some Weddings where I can give it my all, I'm happy. Besides if people are willing to pay me to compromise my work by juggling 2, I'm not going to say no.

Chris Harding February 4th, 2015 10:34 PM

Re: A turning point in video/photo packages?
 
Hey Steve

Just for interest at what stage of the wedding do you shoot the MarryOke?? I'd love to do one but I cannot see a slot where it would work ...with someone else doing the photos I doubt whether I would find any time as photogs seem to want all the spare time for photos. I could do one maybe at a photo venue as long as wifey is doing the stills.

Chris

Steve Burkett February 5th, 2015 04:25 AM

Re: A turning point in video/photo packages?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Harding (Post 1875795)
Just for interest at what stage of the wedding do you shoot the MarryOke??
Chris

There's a sweet spot between the Speeches and the First Dance; obviously different countries may not adhere to this and some of my Weddings have this at a reduced time. Here the room for the Wedding Breakfast has to be turned around for the Evening Party, with the DJ setting up his equipment. The Guests mingle. Rarely any photo sessions. If I get 45 minutes for this, I've got a good chance as long as I have a guest on tap for help (prearranged). They can round up some guests and tell me who I should and shouldn't go to.

However the Photo sessions aren't a waste too. Not all guests are having their photos done and then during the Bride and Groom formals, I've got say 15 minutes of the Guests all to myself. I run it like Guest Messages, go up and ask Guests for lines; later when they're drunk I just play the song and grab snatches of their dancing and miming. Then have it played on the dance floor and get the DJ to grab as many Guests as possible to come up, which fills in the gaps. If the latter doesn't cover it all or the dance footage of them all dancing to the song is crap, I just plug it with random dance footage from the evening and shots during the day. Results are wide ranging, as its down to the Guests how entertaining the final video is, but you work with what you have.
There was one I did that I hated, as filming went badly; then I return to the venue I had filmed it at and the staff there are saying how they saw it and thought it excellent. So there's room for margin with quality in results.

Chris Harding February 5th, 2015 08:29 AM

Re: A turning point in video/photo packages?
 
That's really neat Steve ..do they have music to sing the lines to or do you let me do it blind and hope they keep roughly in time. We did one at our home Christmas Party a year ago and getting people to actually sing to the music was a nightmare so I could imagine how hard it would be to go to a bunch of half drunk guys and tell them ..sing these lines for me!

I really think you are a star for doing yours so well ..this took us ages to do and do over!


Roger Gunkel February 5th, 2015 09:35 AM

Re: A turning point in video/photo packages?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve Burkett (Post 1875762)

Thing is, if people say either my video or Marryoke are compromised when I'm doing both, I say yes, but filming Weddings alone are themselves compromised; it's just a question of degrees.

This is a very often forgotten point, whether you are filming video only, combined package or working with many assistants, you can never capture everything that happens at a wedding unless you have a camera person on everyone there. It's all a balance of influencing the flow where you can, maximising quieter moments to your advantage and keeping your eyes open. You could have ten camera operators and something can happen that none of them catch.

There are always the obvious points of the day that have to be captured at all costs, but even if you miss some of the other things that happen you will still get more than the couple see, so it's lose some gain some no matter how you work.

Roger

Steve Burkett February 5th, 2015 04:32 PM

Re: A turning point in video/photo packages?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Harding (Post 1875825)
do they have music to sing the lines to or do you let me do it blind and hope they keep roughly in time.

Bit of both really. I use music to grab longer sections when I get a group of 4 to sing along to the chorus. If you get enough groups doing the same, you can mix between them in the edit. Tried the yt vid, but blocked in the UK on copyright grounds. Shame.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roger Gunkel (Post 1875832)
There are always the obvious points of the day that have to be captured at all costs, but even if you miss some of the other things that happen you will still get more than the couple see, so it's lose some gain some no matter how you work.
Roger

I think the nub of peoples arguments here are that in providing as full a coverage as possible for a Wedding Video, a 2 person team will have greater advantage over a single shooter, just as a single shooter will have an advantage over a joint Photo/Video operator. That doesn't mean an automatic down slide in quality. If 2 guys, new to Weddings, end up covering one, the disadvantage of their lack of experience will more than out-way their advantage of being a 2 man team. Obviously this same principle works from solo to joint Photo/Video. However the advantage is still there for a proficient 2 man team to capitalise on and produce work that stands a better chance of exceeding mine as a single shooter. That doesn't mean I'm delivering a bad product, just one with an added restriction.

Frankly, unless we all compare videos, what is and isn't a compromise in our work becomes a theoretical exercise and probably one that's been debated enough. Your only problem Roger is you've now got 2 Professions judging you on your work. There's something I like to call Creative snobbery amongst Photo and Video Professionals. Even I'm not immune to this. The fact you do both will be held against you by some Videographers and Photographers too regardless of quality, simply to make their own work seem better in their own eyes. You'll need a thick skin.

Roger Gunkel February 5th, 2015 06:28 PM

Re: A turning point in video/photo packages?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve Burkett (Post 1875891)
Your only problem Roger is you've now got 2 Professions judging you on your work. There's something I like to call Creative snobbery amongst Photo and Video Professionals. Even I'm not immune to this. The fact you do both will be held against you by some Videographers and Photographers too regardless of quality, simply to make their own work seem better in their own eyes. You'll need a thick skin.

Surely though Steve that is the point, I'm not being judged by these two professions, only by my client. What other professionals may or may not think of my work is of no real interest to me, as my potential clients have the chance to compare my work with other professionals at every wedding show I do, before they make their choice.

Just coming back to your observations about solo combined packages as against solo video only or video with more than one camera person. I have never subscribed to the view that more is better as I have never had a problem getting the money shots on my own. I do agree that more than one person lightens the work load and gives a backup if there are unforeseen camera problems, but preparation and experience reduces the risks and makes you adaptable and able to react instantly to the unforeseen.

I do find that many of the multi camera person shoots that I have seen, seem to use the other shooters for different angles or positions during the ceremony, speeches, dances etc, but for the rest of the day just seem to cover general action shots that really can be covered by one person who knows exactly what they want. Unless they are working to a carefully pre planned shot list, they end up covering virtually the same things.

Different angles, camera positioning etc can be covered with judiciously placed locked cameras in most instances and in my case I also have two video cameras on my main manned tripod. That enables me to capture different framing and subjects at the same time, while concentrating on my main camera and regularly changing the shot on the tripod B cam. It is not something that I would suggest everyone should try, but I am very used to working that way and can easily also add a stills camera to the mix. A number of videographers seem to work with frame mounted DSLR cameras, which would make using a stills camera at the same time extremely difficult if not impossible, which is why I have been at pains to say that is essential to work in a totally different way for the dual package. You can't work in a double mode, it is a single mode geared totally to a dual product.

I have found the input on this thread very interesting, at times dismissive and others constructive, but always interesting :-) Whilst on interesting, I have worked with one photographer on many occasions over the last 12 years and have watched him progress through always having a second camera person, to working on his own with a variety of full frame DSLRs and interchangeable lenses. I worked with him a couple of times recently and he now takes virtually all his photos with a small high quality bridge camera. He still carries a Full frame with him, but says it is more for image now than use. He feels that he has much more flexibility on shots and can work far more quickly and efficiently than he ever has before. That is my philosophy also, small, light and very mobile. The quality of his work is very high and I have booked him for my daughter's wedding next year, over the many other very good photographers that I have worked with.

Ways of working are constantly changing and will continue to do so as fashion and technology moves on, for videographers, photographers and clients and this will inevitably lead to more combined packages in my opinion. Hopefully also to video having a higher profile with couples and an increasing percentage of weddings. Just as in dedicated packages, there will be good and not so good, but the client will be the final decider in what they want.

Roger

Chris Harding February 5th, 2015 06:44 PM

Re: A turning point in video/photo packages?
 
Hey Roger

That's it in a nutshell really! If the bride loves what you do then that is all that matters...If you are shooting video with one hand and stills with the other or doing the video just with two GoPropros then so what?

If the client is happy then I couldn't care less what self professed video/photog professionals think ... I'm getting good jobs with great couples and I'm happy with the end result.

We spend far too much time looking at perfection from a technical point of view that brides cannot even see. That is one of the reasons why I never post clips here for comment. (I think you have the same attitude too)

I just know that we now get a heap more enquiries and bookings because we offer video/photo packages and we are running a business so better sales means that we doing something right even if we are breaking technical rules by doing something ourselves that should be done individually.

Steve Burkett February 6th, 2015 03:50 AM

Re: A turning point in video/photo packages?
 
Roger, I still think there's an advantage in having a 2nd guy, not important for all Weddings, but some. I use multi cameras as you do, 3-4 Cameras, one camera on top of the other, different angles - Ceremony, Speeches, 1st Dance plus other parts of the day too if I can. I make the most of my equipment to ensure the disadvantage of being 1 guy is minimal. Yet I can't be in 2 places at once. Can't be at the church filming the Groom and the Guests and also at the Bride's House filming her Dad's first look at his daughter in her dress, can't be with the couple at their romantic photo session at some ruined abbey and also at the venue filming the Guests arrival. I do have to sometimes ask the couple what focus they'd like between the church and the venue - their perspective or the guests perspective, and I'll get different replies and priorities from each.

As I say, it's not an issue at every Wedding and multi cameras can achieve a lot, but they can't tell a Guest to get out of the way if they stand in front of it (oh how I wish I could add that), nor move back into position if knocked. Nor change camera angle mid way, if perhaps the initial setup proves less ideal. A 2nd guy is a resource as useful as an extra bit of kit; who complains or says they could never benefit from an extra resource. It still makes it an advantage over a single shooter. Less so as the day goes on, which is no doubt why some 2nd Photographers naff off after the formals.

Roger Gunkel February 6th, 2015 04:18 AM

Re: A turning point in video/photo packages?
 
Hi Steve, no need to disagree with your points about a second shooter as what you say is quite right on many instances. You could of course make a good case for a third shooter and a sound engineer, but we are talking weddings not film productions, so we have to draw the line somewhere re cost and convenience. I don't disagree with anybody using a second shooter, as I frequently do myself when Claire doesn't have her own wedding to shoot.

There are always odd times when something may be missed the less people are involved, but if it is not something that the couple would notice or worry about, then neither would I. The example you mention of the B&G having romantic shots at an Abbey while the guests are off to the reception is one where I would plan very carefully if I was doing a solo dual package. I work quickly on those kind of shoots and I know from experience, as I am sure you do, that the guests take for ever to get from church to venue, so there would be very little missed. I would also get the couple arriving at the venue with the guests greeting them, so swings and roundabouts really.

There is room for every type of offering but the client is King, or in this case Queen.

Roger

Steve Burkett February 6th, 2015 05:02 AM

Re: A turning point in video/photo packages?
 
I think the argument diminishes when you start talking third shooter and sound engineer. A 2nd shooter has a strong case for Bridal and Groom Preps and the couple photo shoot and guests arrivals. I sometimes wish I could be in 2 places at once, never felt the need to be in 3. As for sound engineer, that's a whole other level of Wedding Video. But for my level, what I shoot and deliver, a 2nd guy would have been useful in some cases. Anyway if we're talking advantages here, I'd say you and your wife working a Wedding together will potentially achieve better things than I working alone with an uncooperative Photographer spoiling my shots.

Roger Gunkel February 6th, 2015 05:04 AM

Re: A turning point in video/photo packages?
 
Good morning Chris.

Yes my attitude to posting clips is the same as yours, it is irrelevant as far as I am concerned. To me the forum is great for exchanging ideas and solving problems! but having my work criticised or admired by fellow professionals has no bearing on what my clients think.

I totally agree that it is easy to get obsessed with technical and artistic perfection, whilst losing focus on what the bride really wants. I mentioned in an earlier post that a couple that I visited a few day ago had seen nine other video companies before booking me. They and the parents, told me that I was the only company they had found on line and at wedding shows that offered a whole day documentary! I was amazed to hear that, and asked them what other people were offering. They said that all the companies they had seen or spoken to were offering short form recordings, with the longest being 45 minutes. The majority were 4-15 minutes with two companies offering unedited ceremony and speeches for an extra price. They said that most were nicely done with highlights set to music and some seemed to be in a jumbled order. Dad said that they were like film trailers, leaving him wanting to see the full event.

I explained that the highlights style of video was a different product that was very popular with new companies and photographers moving into video. Their own worrying conclusion was that if they hadn't seen me, they would have assumed that all wedding videos were like that. I do feel that it is easy to follow fashion, admire other people's work and force a market that was not previously there, while ignoring an established existing market. Developing new ideas is great, as with the dual package, but ignoring what many people want when we already have a very small percentage of the market, strikes me as risky.

Roger

Steve Burkett February 6th, 2015 05:25 AM

Re: A turning point in video/photo packages?
 
Roger, your post to Chris has brightened my day. I confess to being worried the impact Photographers offering Video would have on my Business and how I could respond to that. It only occurred to me in reading your conversation with that couple that the answer is to market more strongly my service as a full length documentary video. I tend to just say Wedding Video, forgetting the term covers a broad range and therefore has the potential to be misinterpreted as something much shorter. In brochures, online and ads, I need to make a point of saying what type of video they're getting.


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