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Old August 10th, 2017, 01:12 PM   #16
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Re: Request suggestions for Wedding Cake Cutting

Steven -

This is my guess. The 'no reply' may be due to the way my wife worded the email. She said that I would be doing photos and video (I don't do photos) but didn't know that a photographer has been hired. My guess is that the person that got the email to reply to has an agreement with the hired photographer. That's one scenario.

The other is that they just don't want to be bothered. Time is money. There is no contact phone number for the venue anywhere that I've been able to find so if one want's to communicate with them it's first via email and they can screen the messages.

We'll be staying at a nearby hotel tomorrow and the venue is about a 15 minute drive from there and in a rural setting, and the wedding is the next day. Initially I was really kinda fired up about doing this but due to the lack of communication I've lost a lot of interest but still hoping for a successful go at it.

A few days ago I did a shoot at the couples government official wedding with only a few family and good friends present (~20) and both the couple and their family really liked the video. The sister of the groom totally gushed over it. Well, I did do a lot of difficult editing trying to eliminate people who walked in front of the cam but still salvaging a precious moment on either side (used a Ken Burns effect on one for example), difficult audio parts, etc. Threw in a couple slo-mo parts. Not up to the pro wedding video standards but the story and the casting was great and the actors, especially the bride, did an excellent performance hamming it up. A bit over 3 minutes long from a lot of shooting.

Last edited by John Nantz; August 10th, 2017 at 01:18 PM. Reason: forgot the word 'hotel'
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Old August 10th, 2017, 07:54 PM   #17
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Re: Request suggestions for Wedding Cake Cutting

Hi john, I'd say you'll do fine! just go in there like the photographer, like your supposed to be there! and have fun doing it.
Best of luck, let us know how it worked out in the end!

BTW I'll be in that neck of the woods soon doing a photography gig...small world eh?


good luck

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Old August 11th, 2017, 12:55 AM   #18
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Re: Request suggestions for Wedding Cake Cutting

Rob - Thanks for the moral support. It'll definitely be interesting.

The event is in Pezinok, Slowakei, outside of Bratislava (formerly Pressburg). The forecast is for moderate temperatures.

The northwest was blanketed by smoke from forest fires when we left and, based on last year, they'll be burning until sometime in at least September, or when there is enough rain to slow them down. If you can get upwind of the smoke it will be wonderful this time of year.

The mother of the bride speaks some German, better than me, so it'll be an interesting time communicating. Most of the people there will be from Slowakei and I don't know any Slowakisch.

Just found out who the photographer is and she is a very "artistic" type. Gotta run!
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Old August 11th, 2017, 06:44 AM   #19
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Re: Request suggestions for Wedding Cake Cutting

nice one, you'll be able to get in a few shots of the Danube and your not a million miles from one of the most beautiful cities in the world - Vienna.

I had a look at the fire map site for WA so the nearest one to where I'll be (Whidbey Island) is over 100 Km so it should be ok.

Enjoy your time there :-)
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Old August 25th, 2017, 11:08 AM   #20
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Re: Request suggestions for Wedding Cake Cutting

Got back home and trying to get caught up, so here is a quickie update:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Gunkel View Post
You haven't mentioned a photographer, but I assume they are having one. If so, liase wth him/her to find out what they will be doing. Usually with the cake cutting, the photographer will want to be right at the front taking priority over the guests for the cake shot as he is being paid to get a good shot. He will then move out of the way for the guests, so a quick chat with him should enable you to work alongside him.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob Cantwell View Post
It's a good option if you can do a staged cake cut etc. less pressure!
:-) yeah it's Mea Culpa..... you get the shot and I agree with what Roger advises during the cake cutting just shadow the photographer.

with the speeches you can probably have the locked of cam for one angle and use the 53 as a B Roll for a few different angles.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob Cantwell View Post
The best way to keep out of the photographers frame is to stay a pace or so behind them.
Well, you guys were spot on. This is where experience definitely counts, learning through the road of hard knocks.

The photographer blocked a number of important shots and here are [pictures of] just two of them, one during the ring ceremony and the other during the cake cutting. With the ring ceremony, the guy with the cell phone was okay but while I was concentrating on my shot the photographer came up and blind-sided me. She was normally on the opposite side from me.

In the cake cutting, it was very similar. She was walking all around the table taking shots behind, to the side and in front of the B & G and the cake table. In this case she came over right in front of me as there was no one standing there because they were considerate and left me a space. Due to the very crowded situation I couldn't move either way because of people standing there. Wound up raising the cam over her head while continuously shooting and just did a one-arm overhead shoot.

Thank goodness for the BOSS on the AX53. Didn't think it would turn out that well but it was both framed well and not shaking hardly at all after supplementing the BOSS with stabilization in post.

By the way, I did meet the photographer but we had a language communication problem and she was rushed after showing up fairly late. Her daughter was supporting her with a second camera.

Edit: In the cake shot she backed up right in front of me. With a picture of that, one wouldn't even know it was a cake shot, only the maroon color of the back of her dress filling the frame. That's when I went overhead with one arm.
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Last edited by John Nantz; August 25th, 2017 at 11:44 AM. Reason: added "pictures of"
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Old August 25th, 2017, 12:18 PM   #21
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Re: Request suggestions for Wedding Cake Cutting

I always cover the cakecutting with my steadicam so I can quickly move when needed but with a ceremony at a venue I have 3 unmanned camera's pointed towards the action, one center and 2 on each side and I walk around with a 4th one handheld so even if a photog would block one angle I still can get away with another one.

If I only would have one camera I would talk to the photog before the ceremony just to get an idea how they plan to shoot the vows or rings, when I see something like in your framegrab that only means it's a unprofessional and not so experienced photographer who doesn't care about you at all. During such a ceremony you can't do that much about it anymore but I would have a talk afterwards with that photog to agree on some rules of cooperation.

Also the guy with the smartphone.. I get this sometimes at Italian/Greek weddings and I always tell them to move if they are in my frame. If the wedding is in a venue I always ask the person leading the ceremony if they can ask that no-one gets up to shoot video or take photos so that I and the photographer can do our job.
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Old August 26th, 2017, 08:15 AM   #22
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Re: Request suggestions for Wedding Cake Cutting

I agree looks like a novice phtoographer to do something like that. Especially an outdoor ceremony, how do they not have a zoom lens?? I can understand a catholic church where you're 15-20 aisles down, maybe its too dark if the zoom too far or they have a 24-70. Usually tho they ask me to move with them in those cases, knowing I can bounce to cam 2 in the edit I usually oblige. I hate that tho, I get them now & then outside where they want that closeup of the candles or sand ceremony and videographer be damned they're going to get it.


OTOH it helps to discuss with the photog you're plan & setup, especially reception where it's less formal & less restrictions than the ceremony. I usually inform them I plan on being center aisle and where the 2nd cam will be setup just so they don't accidentally stand in front of it for long periods or have an associate shoot important events in front of it (vows). Cake cutting too, I just tell the photog to select their preferred position then shoot it next to them. As Noa said I just move if they get in my way. It happens, weddings are so run & gun. A photog once called it 'Delayed Chaos'. You're told somethings going to begin (cake, intros), you plan for it, you wait for it, you position yourself, then it occurs in a completely different way then you were informed.
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Old August 26th, 2017, 01:11 PM   #23
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Re: Request suggestions for Wedding Cake Cutting

A little more background,
The schedule managed to get the day before the wedding was a follows:
Guests arrive at Hotel Rozálka @ 1:30
First shuttle @ 2:00
Reception @ 3:00
Wedding @ 4:00
Wedding banquet @ 6:00
Wedding cake cutting @ 7:30
Dancing with dance music @ 9:00
And a link to the wedding photographer’s web page: https://www.facebook.com/Mária-Zajac...4269122007929/

The venue was very nice and the setting was to be outside for the ring ceremony and inside for the reception. Their web site: Wiegerova vila
The weather two days before the ceremony was very hot with major thunder storms in the area (including Wien, or Vienna) and the forecast for the wedding day was rain and that would put a real dampener on the outside ceremony.

The plan quickly changed to move everything indoors but there was limited space for that option. The largest room was set up for the banquet with tables and chairs for a sit-down meal with long tables at one end for the speeches (often known as a roasting but fortunately not the type with a rotisserie with a skewer).

The logistics was terrible. The table and chairs were heavy wood construction so to move everything out, do the ring ceremony, then move everything back in …. Well, this would be a nightmare. The night before the wedding the weather forecasters started to predict a clearing spell but with high winds. The next morning it was a close call whether to spring for the outdoor ceremony on a soggy lawn with chancy weather and high winds, or go indoors. The decision was made to do it outside.

As it turned out, it didn’t rain but the winds were really strong. For sailboaters this would have been a double-reef day. The reception outside had tables and there was a bar service. Glasses were frequently falling over and often breaking. For the women who spent a lot of money at the hair dressers the day before this turned out to be a “natural wind-blown hair day”.

We got there the day before and stayed at the Hotel Rozálka because I wanted to get some video of the setting up and guest arrivals the next morning. We hired a taxi to go from Wien (Vienna) to the hotel because public transit would have been too much of a hassle. For the trip to Wien I had one suitcase, one carry-on, and one “ladies purse” equivalent which it and much of the carry-on was full with a limited amount of camera gear and the computer.

A couple days before I called plus sent an email to the venue, the hotel, and the sister of the groom, to try and seek information about what to expect. The only reply I got was the schedule above from the sister. (Afterward the sister said she didn't reply because I had too many questions. Arrrrgh!!!)

I hope this background helps to put the situation and my replies into context.
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Old August 26th, 2017, 02:24 PM   #24
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Re: Request suggestions for Wedding Cake Cutting

Noa Put (also known as “the man who can make people disappear”):

Yes, later I would find that it would be nice to make a few disappear, too!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Noa Put View Post
If I only would have one camera I would talk to the photog before the ceremony just to get an idea how they plan to shoot the vows or rings,
I took three cams: AX53 for handheld, AX100 locked off on a tripod, and my wife’s Sony HDR-CX380.

The CX380 I gave to the sister of the groom to take preparation shots before the wedding ceremony and anything else she could. Had a large memory card in it and also gave her a spare battery (even though she almost has her Doctorate, lets face it, that doesn’t mean they know how to do steady hand-held shots. She is really good with a cell phone though.) and an introduction on how to use it and some tips about how to do shots. She did get some nice candid youtube-ish shots but not as many as I had hoped.

As for talking to the photographer, that was a disaster. She only spoke Slovakian and I spoke English, enough German to kinda carry on a conversation, and even worse French from my school days. It was not what I call a warm and friendly meeting, partly because I think she was stressed for getting there late and needed to get on with it. I definitely got the feeling that “cooperation” wasn’t in her vocabulary, at least not on that day.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Noa Put View Post
I always cover the cakecutting with my steadicam so I can quickly move when needed but with a ceremony at a venue I have 3 unmanned camera's pointed towards the action, one center and 2 on each side and I walk around with a 4th one handheld so even if a photog would block one angle I still can get away with another one.
That’s a good modus operandi.

The cake cutting was moved to the area where the outside bar service was, on the smallish patio and under a tent that covered the portable bar and the wind was trying hard to blow over.

Almost right after the ceremony, the wind seemed to pick up another 5 to 10 mph (~9 to 16 kph). The area was small and the door to the banquet room area was just off my left shoulder. People were gonig in and out all the time and passing in front of my frame. Nearly everybody avoided my cam either by ducking under the frame or waiting for my nod. Everybody else was trying to crowd around.

Except for the photographer. She got in my frame so fast I didn’t have time to talk to her and just went one-armed over her head. If I had said anything it would have been recorded in the audio and exactly at a bad time. Looking back, should have tapped her on the shoulder with my other hand and maybe ruined her shot but didn’t think of it in time. Ya gotta be a quick thinker in these situations! (Champagne is not your friend)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Noa Put View Post
Also the guy with the smartphone.. I get this sometimes at Italian/Greek weddings and I always tell them to move if they are in my frame. If the wedding is in a venue I always ask the person leading the ceremony if they can ask that no-one gets up to shoot video or take photos so that I and the photographer can do our job.
Good plan if I ever do this again. Actually, and as of yesterday, I might. Hated to do it but I sold my old JVC HD7 cam and the buyer has a lot of gigs lined up. It pulled on my heart strings to see it go, and adding insult to injury, so cheap. After he saw my videos and gear, wants to team up but for me this is just a hobby but would be, I think, very interesting.

Confession time: This was technically my second wedding. A few days before the couple had a civil ceremony with only about ~ 20 of their closest friends and relatives. I did a short 3+ minute video highlight of it and at a combined family get-together watching it on TV they REALLY raved over it and that left me with a good feeling (I wasn't there, actually, we were leaving for the airport when the call came in). It wasn’t the pomp-and-circumstance type of wedding, just sport suit attire and low-key, but with a bit of the trimmings, you might say. Even though it was in HD, there was a Ken Burns or two (one to get rid of a person in my frame), and a couple slo-mo’s (kisses, or special situation), and it was all AX53. So, who knows? Might reconsider, especially if there’s good food and drink.

Below is a picture of the ceremony wide shot with the AX100. Was far back because the tripod was only on short legs so it wouldn’t blow over, and it was next to something. Unfortunately, somehow, it got slightly moved either by wind or somebody touching it, so it wasn’t exactly centered.

The photographer in the frame was the photographer’s daughter. Note how everything is being blown.
[Edit: P.S. c'est moi, third from the right]
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Last edited by John Nantz; August 26th, 2017 at 09:27 PM. Reason: see Edit
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Old August 26th, 2017, 03:10 PM   #25
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Re: Request suggestions for Wedding Cake Cutting

David,
This was a totally new experience for me, more so because I was doing this for relatives and wanted something really nice for them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by David Barnett View Post
I agree looks like a novice phtoographer to do something like that. Especially an outdoor ceremony, how do they not have a zoom lens?? I can understand a catholic church where you're 15-20 aisles down, maybe its too dark if the zoom too far or they have a 24-70. Usually tho they ask me to move with them in those cases, knowing I can bounce to cam 2 in the edit I usually oblige. I hate that tho, I get them now & then outside where they want that closeup of the candles or sand ceremony and videographer be damned they're going to get it.
If communication was better (English to English, maybe), I think things would work out much better. Especially if meeting ahead of time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Barnett View Post
OTOH it helps to discuss with the photog you're plan & setup, especially reception where it's less formal & less restrictions than the ceremony. I usually inform them I plan on being center aisle and where the 2nd cam will be setup just so they don't accidentally stand in front of it for long periods or have an associate shoot important events in front of it (vows). Cake cutting too, I just tell the photog to select their preferred position then shoot it next to them. As Noa said I just move if they get in my way.
This is all good stuff if I ever do another gig like it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Barnett View Post
A photog once called it 'Delayed Chaos'. You're told somethings going to begin (cake, intros), you plan for it, you wait for it, you position yourself, then it occurs in a completely different way then you were informed.
Nice quote! Only in my case I think the word "Delayed" could be taken out.
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Old August 26th, 2017, 04:36 PM   #26
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Re: Request suggestions for Wedding Cake Cutting

Picture of mic setup.

Because I didn't have any lavalieres with recorders I had to improvise. Below is a shot of the Sennheiser ME-66 with a Rycote windshield connected to the Tascam DR-44WLrecorder. Had it set under the table for protection from stray people, the wind, and hopefully for wind protection so it wouldn't get blown over. Away from the table the wind gusts were so strong it would actually blow it over even though it was so close to the ground. As it turned out, the location worked perfectly.

Ran the recorder via Wi-Fi via an app on the iPhone and the setup worked marvelously. It picked up the B & G voices and, surprisingly, the Priest's voice, but his was going though the PA system so maybe that was what the mic picked up. The audio was very clean of wind noise.

Syncing:
This was the biggest issue. The locked-off AX100 has terrific wind noise from it's built-in microphone but this cam was key in the ceremony as it ran continuously. The AX53 B-cam has the Rřde Stereo VideoMic with a windshield cover so it's audio was quite good. Even with the high wind it was good.

The ME-66 being close to the ground and protected with it's windshield had the cleanest audio. Syncing the AX53 with the ME-66 track was really easy. Syncing with the AX100 audio track not so easy. I think my workflow was a bit backwards as the first thing I did was sync the AX53 with the AX100 and this was a lot of work. When that was done I brought in the Tascam audio track. Should have done this second and then the AX53.

For my arms and legs, this was a long ceremony. I found a chair so that helped but just holding the cam for various periods caused my arms to get tired. There was a large old wood table setup about 15 feet behind me and I sat the iPhone on it. Due to the distance I wasn't able to really monitor it as well as it should have been. The app allowed the recorder to be paused and turn On or Off, and the volume of either the safety track or the mic tracks to be adjusted independently. Really nice. There's an app update I haven't installed yet and Rob Cantwell mentioned about one for the Sony cams so I'll have to check that out.

The candle (seen on the ground) was put in a lantern for wind protection but even though there were small slits for air, the wind would snuff the flame out. The lantern was finally put on the ground to see if the flame would stay lit and it did. It was lit after this frame shot.

For this very windy day, the mic setup was a life saver.
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Old August 26th, 2017, 07:05 PM   #27
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Re: Request suggestions for Wedding Cake Cutting

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Nantz View Post
The schedule managed to get the day before the wedding was a follows:
Guests arrive at Hotel Rozálka @ 1:30
First shuttle @ 2:00
Reception @ 3:00
Wedding @ 4:00
Wedding banquet @ 6:00
Wedding cake cutting @ 7:30
Dancing with dance music @ 9:00
That sounds like a holiday :)
I just got back from a wedding
07:30 start shooting at the groom (after 2 hour drive to get there)
08:00 shoot make up and hairdresser at the bride
10:00 groom arrives, first meet
11:00 legal wedding in town hall
11:30 back to parents house for family pictures and to eat.
13:00 church wedding
14:00 photoshoot
16:00 to venue and have first reception
18:00 new reception second group
19:30 couples enters venue and first course is served
20:30 2 speeches
21:00 main dish served
22:00 2 speeches
22:30 dessert
23:00 game organised by friends
23:30 first dance
midnight - I go home, again a 2 hour drive.

This is a average wedding planning I have to go though every wedding I shoot. 2 Weeks ago I had a Chinese wedding with doorgames, 2 theaceremonies and 19(!) speeches in the evening, started at 7 in the morning, ended at 30 min past midnight.
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Old August 27th, 2017, 11:51 AM   #28
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Re: Request suggestions for Wedding Cake Cutting

Noa ....
Quote:
Originally Posted by Noa Put View Post
That sounds like a holiday :).
After reading your schedule I'd tend to agree (even though at the time I didn't think mine was.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Noa Put View Post
This is a average wedding planning I have to go though every wedding I shoot. 2 Weeks ago I had a Chinese wedding with doorgames, 2 theaceremonies and 19(!) speeches in the evening, started at 7 in the morning, ended at 30 min past midnight.
Two weeks ago you had one even worse than this? Is all the editing done on it?
Ya know …. looking at that schedule is a good reason to (1) NOT do wedding videos, and (2), as a groom, just elope! Can’t even imagine having to edit and re-live all that footage. (And 19 speeches ... yawn ... zzzz)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Noa Put View Post
07:30 start shooting at the groom (after 2 hour drive to get there)
08:00 shoot make up and hairdresser at the bride
10:00 groom arrives, first meet
11:00 legal wedding in town hall
If it were me (as a groom), at about 11:30 I’d be for getting on with the rest of life!
(Maybe I shouldn’t write that in this Forum section?)

Last edited by John Nantz; August 27th, 2017 at 11:51 AM. Reason: changed "it" to "mine"
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Old August 27th, 2017, 12:40 PM   #29
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Re: Request suggestions for Wedding Cake Cutting

While we are on the subject, one of the clues for working with photographers can be, do they use primes or zoom lenses.

We have primes too so we understand, but many shots taken with primes can be taken with zooms as well. So if a photographer shows up with only primes, I can almost bet they'll be running up into my video shots. Unlike my wife and I who shoot, we have very nice zooms and she's able to shoot from a distance.

Just a simple observation, but it does help me to look at the photogs lens gear.
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Old August 27th, 2017, 07:50 PM   #30
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Re: Request suggestions for Wedding Cake Cutting

I understand that you had language problems with the photographer, but there has to be mutual respect which clearly the photographer didn't show you.

You have to make a decision when you are a wedding videographer about what you are trying to achieve. If the couple are expecting a video of their day and photographs of their day, then you have as much right as the photographer to be allowed to do your job. I often hear on this forum about working around the photographer, but when I am doing video only, I only work around the photographer when he needs to set up poses and groups. During the ceremony, speeches and cake cutting, the photographer has no priority over positioning and those times are essential to have a mutual understanding of each other's requirements.

In your instance with the daughter of the photographer standing infront of you, that is totally unacceptable and is not something I would take lightly. A second shooter is just that - second to the primary shooter and as far as I am concerned second to the videographer. I would also not accept the primary photographer walking directly into my shot in a non set up or non posed part of the day. Some photographers seem to feel that the photography is the most important and it doesn't matter about the video, but if you are there working for the couple, then there is no greater importance with the photographs. In certain parts of the day such as the vows or speeches, an uninterrupted shot on the video is vital and there is no need at any time for the photographer to dominate the moment.

As regards guests with phones, DSLRs, or video cameras, they are bottom of the pile and are taking shots for themselves, not the couple. I never give way to them, and a friendly word or gentle tap on the shoulder is usually sufficient, but a gentle 'accidental' nudge is also sometimes appropriate. More often than not they just don't notice you and are apologetic when they realise they are in the way.

As a company, we do video only, photography only and most frequently a combined package, so I am very aware that working together on both is extremely easy to allow space for what each discipline requires. Just make sure that you are confident enough to assert yourself :-)

Roger
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