Dance Recital Video Distribution Revisited

Chris Harding · November 11th, 2018, 08:16 PM

Hi Paul

I see your point! However there is still no easy solution in most countries ! We now have a licence in Australia that allows you to put videos online as long as they have a password. However the moment you host it on any non Australian site you are back to square one as YouTube works on USA law so even if you could find a server locally It will more than likely cost an arm and a leg for decent bandwidth.

I wonder what would happen if you set up your own server as Paul Mailath hinted on, is that technically "broadcasting" ?? A private server with nothing but video files and never advertised or promoted with password protect isn't physically broadcasting or is it?? I wonder, even if that is considered broadcasting, they would still have a tough time finding your files?

Nigel Barker · November 12th, 2018, 12:27 AM

Those bit rates are ridiculously high. Netflix & Amazon stream 4K video at 15-20mbps but for 1080p it’s no more than 5mbps while 720p would be 1.5-3mbps.

Paul R Johnson · November 12th, 2018, 08:28 AM

No - I'd say it's not broadcasting, but here, they add in extra terms to make sure it's a catchall. However wee have a version for online downloads that's quite cheap and just has a £12,500 annual income from downloads as a rule. Is there nothing like this available your side of the water?

Chris Harding · November 12th, 2018, 05:57 PM

Hi Paul

We DO have an online option now but the video does need to be password protected BUT (and that's the BIG BUT) it only covers video hosted on an Australian server so you cannot pay for your licence and set up , say, a vimeo account and password because they will ping you as they recognise USA law. I dunno about the UK but here hosting is pricey and the word bandwidth causes jitters. I host my websites on an LA server (powweb) for something like $25 a quarter and that gives me unlimited files, unlimited space and unlimited bandwidth. I think the option here was designed to cater for the wedding videographer who wants an online sample of a few minutes rather than a dance recital producer that has 4 hours of a performance with hundreds of viewers.

Nigel?? We do regular livestream weddings each week and those are sent to the stream server at 2mbps and the quality looks pretty darn good at 2mbps .. Never had a complaint from brides .. in fact I shoot a backup to card at the same time at Panasonic's 28mbps but only render that out at no more than 8 mbps as an MP4 file ..I could probably get away with 4mbps for the backup

Tim OBrian · July 30th, 2019, 10:36 PM

Just found this interesting thread as I'm looking at the same options this year for my dance work. Been happily distributing via DVD however there have been a few dance studios ask about a download or USB option.

I am heading towards the USB option as that seems a lot easier route, albeit more expensive. As you say Chris, our AMCOS/APRA licences do not cover online distribution via hosting outside of Australia. I do not believe my customers are also in the position to be downloading 8GB files on their home internet NBN speeds. Some may, but I'm expecting I will get quite a few emails from unhappy parents unable to download the huge HD files of a 2.5 hour long concert. I expect that they would then ask for it on USB, defeating the purpose!

This leaves me with USB. I've been playing around with filesizes and codecs to see what is the most compatible. On my 8 yr old Sony LCD Smart TV, It refuses to play a video larger than around 4GB even though the USB is formatted for ExFat. This means I'll probably have to separate the files into Act 1 and Act 2 etc and keep the bitrate low enough in order to keep it around the 4GB mark. I've played around and 5mbps 1080p is actually pretty decent and keeps a roughly 1:45hr show to around 4.2GB. Splitting the acts up I could bump it to 10mbps and I think larger than that is overkill and would run into more compatibility issues.

Cost is a huge factor and would probably have to wear the cost of the USB as I can't see parents paying any more than they already are for DVDs. I've pushed Blu-Rays for a few years at an extra $5 but there have only been a couple of the larger dance studios that have bothered to plug it. Most of them are happy with DVDs. At this stage I can't see any of my studios going all USB instead of DVD, so I would still have to create the menus and author the DVDs along with the case artwork. So I'm not saving any time there.

If I do go down the USB route, I would have to change to a flat rate for every family. The only good thing about DVDs going by the wayside is I think a lot of people have forgotten how to pirate and/or don't own DVD drives on their computers. There's no way I'm going to do individual sales on USBs.

Has anyone actually taken this step and provide feedback from last year's run of dance concerts? I'd be interested to see how you got on.

Chris Harding · July 31st, 2019, 05:10 AM

Hi Tim

My mate Alan lives on the Gold Coast and a few years ago he worked for a guy in Queensland doing recitals and he told me they produce the USB drives on the night for parents ... each dance section is sent to a computer in realtime and by the time interval has arrived those parents can collect their USB's and pay for them before the next session ...it seemed to work OK and is great for people actually at the performance ...I guess the USB can also be posted the next day to people that cannot attend too ...the nice thing about USB is that you can duplicate them 10 at a time and if you have spares you can simply delete the files and use them again. Would that work for you?? I find that DVD's are getting harder to find !!

David Barnett · July 31st, 2019, 07:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim OBrian

If I do go down the USB route, I would have to change to a flat rate for every family. The only good thing about DVDs going by the wayside is I think a lot of people have forgotten how to pirate and/or don't own DVD drives on their computers. There's no way I'm going to do individual sales on USBs.

Not trying to be a downer, but since you mentioned pirating, wouldn't pirating/duplicating USBs be easier than DVDs? I mean, DVDs were quite simple to those who put some effort into learning and had a capable PC, but copying a USB I think everyone on the planet can do. (Unless you use some anti copying code/software)

Tim OBrian · July 31st, 2019, 06:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Harding

My mate Alan lives on the Gold Coast and a few years ago he worked for a guy in Queensland doing recitals and he told me they produce the USB drives on the night for parents ... each dance section is sent to a computer in realtime and by the time interval has arrived those parents can collect their USB's and pay for them before the next session ...it seemed to work OK and is great for people actually at the performance ..

That's a whole different ball game. I'd require staff to man cameras, direct and multi-switch as well as produce the USBs. Logistical nightmare, not to mention the quality of editing and mixing compared to having all the time in the world in post to fix anything up. This is something they do for Eisteddfods, as they're day long events and usually one fixed camera. They sell to parents a lot cheaper than shooting an end of year concert. I'm usually pretty quick at editing and getting my shows out to the studios. Usually it's the studios that go on holidays and need a break from preparing for the concerts and don't bother to check the master DVD where the hold-ups are with getting them to parents.

Quote:

Originally Posted by David Barnett

Not trying to be a downer, but since you mentioned pirating, wouldn't pirating/duplicating USBs be easier than DVDs?

Yes, that's why I'd only do it if every parent paid a fee.

A while back I ended up getting my own DVD Duplicator to bring costs down, and when a parent came to me 2 months later and asked for a DVD I could run one off instead of getting a supplier to do 1 or 2 copies of a show. I would probably do the same for the USBs and buy a duplicator. I source all my materials online from wholesalers as you're getting higher quality discs compared to what you can buy locally (if you can find them instore).

Chris Harding · July 31st, 2019, 06:34 PM

Thanks Tim

Both Alan and I do live streamed events with often just one camera and our server guys create a DVR directly from the live feed which can be downloaded too as long as they have the link. It's a neat solution for people wanting online and downloadable content and the DVR files are able to be edited too. However we tend to stay with weddings and funerals shot on a single camera/dolly setup. The whole idea was of course to be able where possible to eliminate hours of editing to make it cost effective so we can do a wedding ceremony (which takes 20 minutes) and be home within the hour done and dusted!

Your current method is probably the best for what you do! The only thing that bugged me was I could get DVD disks for 30 cents a pop ..a tiny bit more for a case and printing but certainly within a one dollar cost whilst now days you struggle to find a USB under 16GB capacity and those come out at $6 or $7 each which as you say, you have to bear the cost of!!!

Andrew Smith · July 31st, 2019, 07:54 PM

Why not just charge the extra $5 for the USB and be done with it? It's in the ball park of the cost of a good coffee, which the parents wouldn't bat an eyelid over. Plus ... they get to keep the super-handy USB! :-)

It may well be time for a price rise as it is, and this gives it some physical legitimacy.

Andrew

Chris Harding · August 1st, 2019, 12:04 AM

Hi Andrew .. I would add on to the price too but Tim sounded concerned about having to cover the extra cost of USB's
"Cost is a huge factor and would probably have to wear the cost of the USB as I can't see parents paying any more than they already are for DVDs."

Let's face it DVD's are on the way out ..and already I have clients saying "we don't have a DVD player" ..I dropped DVD's for weddings a while back but still get the odd person saying "Our parents only have a DVD player and cannot play a USB drive.

With the USB Tim, just split the files into each performance song and use intelligent naming so a TV will play them in sequence so : 0001Song1.mp4, then 0002Song2.mp4

Tim OBrian · August 5th, 2019, 04:52 AM

Thanks guys, I think I'll just increase the cost by $5 which would equal the same net profit if it costs me a couple of bucks for the DVD production

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Harding

With the USB Tim, just split the files into each performance song and use intelligent naming so a TV will play them in sequence so : 0001Song1.mp4, then 0002Song2.mp4

That sounds good in theory, but I don't have the patience to manually do IN and OUT points and then export each of them for 30+ dance items in a concert. Act 1 and Act 2 files will have to do!

Has anyone experienced file size or codec problems with playing on a TV?

Pete Cofrancesco · August 5th, 2019, 10:06 AM

In addition you can’t count how your tv or computer works that the clients will or that how they prefer to watch. Imagine the director or client wants to watch the show in it’s entirety and you’re sending them 40 individual files that don’t automatically play consecutively. Let alone all the time to individually in/out and name them.

I have many (most) clients who want a dvd, it’s not a matter of price that’s what they want.

Chris Harding · August 5th, 2019, 06:42 PM

Hi Tim

So you don't do any editing and render out your footage apart from act1 or act2 ?? As long as you keep the files under 4GB then most devices will play it. With regards to bitrate we actually only live broadcast at 2.0mbps and clients are quite happy with that. We obviously also supply a USB and I do that at just 8mbps and it looks great even on a big screen TV. Just for interest, at the recitals we have done I have stopped and started the cameras after each dance. The idea here was to allow parents to be able to use the USB on the TV and actually skip down to their little angel's performance. If you shoot each performance as an individual file they are nice and small and it does give you the option to supply custom USB's A string of files on a USB played on a TV will play seamlessly anyway!

Tim OBrian · August 5th, 2019, 09:44 PM

Yes I fully edit all the shows. Multi-cam timeline in Premiere with 3-4 cameras, overdub the music, add in the tap mics and any other vocal performances, add audience applause when needed and remove all the gaps in between the dances :) Each DVD has full menus with chapter points for each dance, so although they are getting the whole show, they can go to a menu and select the dance they want to watch.

Editing and producing live isn't really my business model as I prefer to have a quality product a few weeks later.

Getting it down to under 4GB should be fine if I stick to the 5-10mbps limit and split the show up into each act. No need to go overboard with the bitrate when they're used to DVD quality.

November 11th, 2018, 08:16 PM	#46
Chris Harding Inner Circle Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Perth, Western Australia Posts: 8,441	Re: Dance Recital Video Distribution Revisited Hi Paul I see your point! However there is still no easy solution in most countries ! We now have a licence in Australia that allows you to put videos online as long as they have a password. However the moment you host it on any non Australian site you are back to square one as YouTube works on USA law so even if you could find a server locally It will more than likely cost an arm and a leg for decent bandwidth. I wonder what would happen if you set up your own server as Paul Mailath hinted on, is that technically "broadcasting" ?? A private server with nothing but video files and never advertised or promoted with password protect isn't physically broadcasting or is it?? I wonder, even if that is considered broadcasting, they would still have a tough time finding your files?

November 12th, 2018, 12:27 AM	#47
Nigel Barker Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Norwich, Norfolk, UK Posts: 3,531	Re: Dance Recital Video Distribution Revisited Those bit rates are ridiculously high. Netflix & Amazon stream 4K video at 15-20mbps but for 1080p it’s no more than 5mbps while 720p would be 1.5-3mbps.

November 12th, 2018, 08:28 AM	#48
Paul R Johnson Inner Circle Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Lowestoft - UK Posts: 4,016	Re: Dance Recital Video Distribution Revisited No - I'd say it's not broadcasting, but here, they add in extra terms to make sure it's a catchall. However wee have a version for online downloads that's quite cheap and just has a £12,500 annual income from downloads as a rule. Is there nothing like this available your side of the water?

November 12th, 2018, 05:57 PM	#49
Chris Harding Inner Circle Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Perth, Western Australia Posts: 8,441	Re: Dance Recital Video Distribution Revisited Hi Paul We DO have an online option now but the video does need to be password protected BUT (and that's the BIG BUT) it only covers video hosted on an Australian server so you cannot pay for your licence and set up , say, a vimeo account and password because they will ping you as they recognise USA law. I dunno about the UK but here hosting is pricey and the word bandwidth causes jitters. I host my websites on an LA server (powweb) for something like $25 a quarter and that gives me unlimited files, unlimited space and unlimited bandwidth. I think the option here was designed to cater for the wedding videographer who wants an online sample of a few minutes rather than a dance recital producer that has 4 hours of a performance with hundreds of viewers. Nigel?? We do regular livestream weddings each week and those are sent to the stream server at 2mbps and the quality looks pretty darn good at 2mbps .. Never had a complaint from brides .. in fact I shoot a backup to card at the same time at Panasonic's 28mbps but only render that out at no more than 8 mbps as an MP4 file ..I could probably get away with 4mbps for the backup

July 30th, 2019, 10:36 PM	#50
Tim OBrian New Boot Join Date: Jul 2019 Location: QLD, Australia Posts: 9	Re: Dance Recital Video Distribution Revisited Just found this interesting thread as I'm looking at the same options this year for my dance work. Been happily distributing via DVD however there have been a few dance studios ask about a download or USB option. I am heading towards the USB option as that seems a lot easier route, albeit more expensive. As you say Chris, our AMCOS/APRA licences do not cover online distribution via hosting outside of Australia. I do not believe my customers are also in the position to be downloading 8GB files on their home internet NBN speeds. Some may, but I'm expecting I will get quite a few emails from unhappy parents unable to download the huge HD files of a 2.5 hour long concert. I expect that they would then ask for it on USB, defeating the purpose! This leaves me with USB. I've been playing around with filesizes and codecs to see what is the most compatible. On my 8 yr old Sony LCD Smart TV, It refuses to play a video larger than around 4GB even though the USB is formatted for ExFat. This means I'll probably have to separate the files into Act 1 and Act 2 etc and keep the bitrate low enough in order to keep it around the 4GB mark. I've played around and 5mbps 1080p is actually pretty decent and keeps a roughly 1:45hr show to around 4.2GB. Splitting the acts up I could bump it to 10mbps and I think larger than that is overkill and would run into more compatibility issues. Cost is a huge factor and would probably have to wear the cost of the USB as I can't see parents paying any more than they already are for DVDs. I've pushed Blu-Rays for a few years at an extra $5 but there have only been a couple of the larger dance studios that have bothered to plug it. Most of them are happy with DVDs. At this stage I can't see any of my studios going all USB instead of DVD, so I would still have to create the menus and author the DVDs along with the case artwork. So I'm not saving any time there. If I do go down the USB route, I would have to change to a flat rate for every family. The only good thing about DVDs going by the wayside is I think a lot of people have forgotten how to pirate and/or don't own DVD drives on their computers. There's no way I'm going to do individual sales on USBs. Has anyone actually taken this step and provide feedback from last year's run of dance concerts? I'd be interested to see how you got on.

July 31st, 2019, 05:10 AM	#51
Chris Harding Inner Circle Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Perth, Western Australia Posts: 8,441	Re: Dance Recital Video Distribution Revisited Hi Tim My mate Alan lives on the Gold Coast and a few years ago he worked for a guy in Queensland doing recitals and he told me they produce the USB drives on the night for parents ... each dance section is sent to a computer in realtime and by the time interval has arrived those parents can collect their USB's and pay for them before the next session ...it seemed to work OK and is great for people actually at the performance ...I guess the USB can also be posted the next day to people that cannot attend too ...the nice thing about USB is that you can duplicate them 10 at a time and if you have spares you can simply delete the files and use them again. Would that work for you?? I find that DVD's are getting harder to find !!

July 31st, 2019, 06:34 PM	#54
Chris Harding Inner Circle Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Perth, Western Australia Posts: 8,441	Re: Dance Recital Video Distribution Revisited Thanks Tim Both Alan and I do live streamed events with often just one camera and our server guys create a DVR directly from the live feed which can be downloaded too as long as they have the link. It's a neat solution for people wanting online and downloadable content and the DVR files are able to be edited too. However we tend to stay with weddings and funerals shot on a single camera/dolly setup. The whole idea was of course to be able where possible to eliminate hours of editing to make it cost effective so we can do a wedding ceremony (which takes 20 minutes) and be home within the hour done and dusted! Your current method is probably the best for what you do! The only thing that bugged me was I could get DVD disks for 30 cents a pop ..a tiny bit more for a case and printing but certainly within a one dollar cost whilst now days you struggle to find a USB under 16GB capacity and those come out at $6 or $7 each which as you say, you have to bear the cost of!!!

July 31st, 2019, 07:54 PM	#55
Andrew Smith Equal Opportunity Offender Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Brisbane, Australia Posts: 3,016	Re: Dance Recital Video Distribution Revisited Why not just charge the extra $5 for the USB and be done with it? It's in the ball park of the cost of a good coffee, which the parents wouldn't bat an eyelid over. Plus ... they get to keep the super-handy USB! :-) It may well be time for a price rise as it is, and this gives it some physical legitimacy. Andrew

August 1st, 2019, 12:04 AM	#56
Chris Harding Inner Circle Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Perth, Western Australia Posts: 8,441	Re: Dance Recital Video Distribution Revisited Hi Andrew .. I would add on to the price too but Tim sounded concerned about having to cover the extra cost of USB's "Cost is a huge factor and would probably have to wear the cost of the USB as I can't see parents paying any more than they already are for DVDs." Let's face it DVD's are on the way out ..and already I have clients saying "we don't have a DVD player" ..I dropped DVD's for weddings a while back but still get the odd person saying "Our parents only have a DVD player and cannot play a USB drive. With the USB Tim, just split the files into each performance song and use intelligent naming so a TV will play them in sequence so : 0001Song1.mp4, then 0002Song2.mp4

August 5th, 2019, 10:06 AM	#58
Pete Cofrancesco Inner Circle Join Date: May 2004 Location: USA Posts: 2,997	Re: Dance Recital Video Distribution Revisited In addition you can’t count how your tv or computer works that the clients will or that how they prefer to watch. Imagine the director or client wants to watch the show in it’s entirety and you’re sending them 40 individual files that don’t automatically play consecutively. Let alone all the time to individually in/out and name them. I have many (most) clients who want a dvd, it’s not a matter of price that’s what they want.

August 5th, 2019, 06:42 PM	#59
Chris Harding Inner Circle Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Perth, Western Australia Posts: 8,441	Re: Dance Recital Video Distribution Revisited Hi Tim So you don't do any editing and render out your footage apart from act1 or act2 ?? As long as you keep the files under 4GB then most devices will play it. With regards to bitrate we actually only live broadcast at 2.0mbps and clients are quite happy with that. We obviously also supply a USB and I do that at just 8mbps and it looks great even on a big screen TV. Just for interest, at the recitals we have done I have stopped and started the cameras after each dance. The idea here was to allow parents to be able to use the USB on the TV and actually skip down to their little angel's performance. If you shoot each performance as an individual file they are nice and small and it does give you the option to supply custom USB's A string of files on a USB played on a TV will play seamlessly anyway!

August 5th, 2019, 09:44 PM	#60
Tim OBrian New Boot Join Date: Jul 2019 Location: QLD, Australia Posts: 9	Re: Dance Recital Video Distribution Revisited Yes I fully edit all the shows. Multi-cam timeline in Premiere with 3-4 cameras, overdub the music, add in the tap mics and any other vocal performances, add audience applause when needed and remove all the gaps in between the dances :) Each DVD has full menus with chapter points for each dance, so although they are getting the whole show, they can go to a menu and select the dance they want to watch. Editing and producing live isn't really my business model as I prefer to have a quality product a few weeks later. Getting it down to under 4GB should be fine if I stick to the 5-10mbps limit and split the show up into each act. No need to go overboard with the bitrate when they're used to DVD quality.