I've always been impressed by the SD quality of commercial DVD movies and lamented my lack of ability to take a 1440*1080 image and somehow lose sharpness by reducing it in size - coming from a Photoshop background, this was an unsuspected dissappointment. I thought there was some possibly archane magic going on with how well feature length studio movies were squeezed onto a single DVD with such sharpness and detail. I'm glad I stumbled upon this thread. I must look into other methods i.e. Lancoz etc.
I hear you with the Cineform codec. I'll only use that on projects over 30 minutes. I'll definitely use lossless of one form or another to go between Vegas and Virtual Dub.

I've read 3 pages of this thread, and while being somewhat new to NLEs and Vegas, I'm trying to understand why spend money and time on 3rd party software (besides Vegas) on something that most of clients (wedding, commerical) will never see?

I looked at the comparison above and I'm pretty sure that Its not worth my time to go thru the hassle just for a bit of more detail. I tell my clients that if they want the pretty picture they will need a BluRay disc player, otherwise IMO most people just can't tell the difference.

I just import my HDV (1080i/60) m2t files onto the time line and if its going to a DVD I use a progressive scan render (VBR 9K)(two pass), and so far everyone is happy (including me because I spend less time on a project)

Am I missing something here?

Craig's List vendors are welcome here too - - I guess.

Martin,

If you're happy with the existing HD-SD downconvert quality - then that's great. I really wish I was. There's a whole bunch of us here that aren't. I've spent a good chunk of the last few days just trying to improve my dvd output because I'm frankly disgusted by the quality of the Vegas downcnvert quality using the 'optimum settings'.

Most of my clients don't have HD players or don't request HD content.
I've spent a lot of time and money on my little videography business, and I put a lot of effort into the work that I do. Because of that, I'm passionate about squeezing every ounce of perceivable quality out of what I produce.
I think with the relative accessibility for the average Joe to purchase a nice camera and editing software/hardware, maintaining that professional edge and market advantage means that you do what you have to do to produce higher quality outcomes than the serious hobbyist (which there are plenty of these days) or your professional competition.
Not that I actually really care about that angle - I just want my images to look as pretty as I can possibly make them. This HD to SD method gives me enough of a perceivable image improvement to warrant the extra step in my workflow.

If you and your clients are happy, then no you are not missing anything. However, it is not the goal of everyone to produce faster results, or take shortcuts. Some people strive for excellence. Others don't.

vdub resize settings
 

Can someone share there virtual dub 'resize' and compression settings. While I'm rendering a very nice looking avi. DVDA does not like it at all and is really messing it up. The aspect ratio is off (vertically squished), and has horizontal lines.

The source clip is:

1440x180 (cineform .avi). Vegas project settings: HDV 1080-60i template - Upper field first, blend fields, 8-bit. Note: source footage is mixed hdv and 5d2 (cineform converted via Neoscene)

The vdub settings i'm using are:

Resize
Absolute pixels: (checked) set at 720x480
Relative:(unchecked) 50x44.4444

Aspect Ratio: Disabled
Filter Mode: Lanczos3

Interlace: (unchecked)
Framing Options: Letterox/crop to size: 720x480
Codec friendly sizing: have tried several - soesn't seem to matter.


I have also reloaded the .avi into Vegas. (widescreen project settings) and re-rendered using mpeg2 template and the re-rendered file , and while it looks good, the aspect ratio (vertical squishing) is happening again.

Any help would be appreciated.

Ken.

Hi Ken. I don't see the Letterbox/Crop to Size setting in my version of Vdub, but I don't think you should be setting anything that says letterbox.

Alternatively, are you setting up a 16:9 project in DVDA? Sounds like it could be your project is 4:3 and the footage is 16:9, hence the letterboxing.

Richard

[QUOTE=Jim Snow;1227673]

My conclusion is that most of the “damage” to resolution is when the files are resized when encoding with Main Concepts. The files that I encoded to MPEG-2 after resizing them in VirtualDub were of apparently equal quality when encoded with either the Main Concepts encoder or TMPGEnc. It appears that the culprit that degrades the files is the resizing operation in Main Concepts.

If the culprit is the resizing operation in Main Concept would a simple solution be to render your edited HDV footage as uncompressed SD avi in Vegas (ie resize). Then render this avi file to mpeg2 using mainconcept in Vegas. Or am I missing a vital point.

Ken, this is what a lot of people on the EDius forum use. The Vdub resize will be the same for Vegas too.
Using Virtual Dub and Edius to downscale HD to SD.
My normal approach is to use TMPGenc with Lancsos first and if the results are OK then I am happy if there are problems then I use this Vdub approach. IT takes longer needs some touch up for colour and sharpness but has less artifacts. Most of the time TMPGenc is fine and a lot better than directly out of Vegas or Edius. I output from Edius as a HQ file or Vegas as HDV file and let TMPGenc do the downconvert and encode for SD DVD.

Ron Evans

Thanks Richard/Ron,

I just ran yet another test in vdub with the resize set to 720x405 (16:9 ratio) using Lagarith compressor - and it renders beautifully. DVDA then prepared and burned it in proper aspect ratio. WTF?

I'm going to try another larger file now.

You would still have a resizing problem. The Lanczos3 resizer is important. It does a much better job.

Well, I'm not exactly sure why, but that 720x405 setting works beautifully in DVDA

Welcome to my workflow.

Lagarith + Lanczos = Beautiful downscales.

The 720x405 works fine for SD. It's a bit tricky for those with 16:9 TVs. 720x480 with the widescreen flag on should work fine for making SD discs and it's what I tend to do these days.

Perrone and others,

Thanks for all the help! That's the kind of DVD quality I was expecting from an HD-SD conversion.

Hi,

When rendering the HQ AVI file from Vegas using the Lagarith codec, for importing into Virtualdub, do you set the aspect ratio as 1440:1080 with PAR at 1.333333 (ie same as source) or use custom setting 1920:1080 with PAR square pixels. Apologies if this is a basic question. I don't have Vegas in front of me.

I avoid non-square pixels like the plague. They complicate matters more than necessary. Once you get to square pixels everything becomes perfectly simple.

I export out at 1440x1080, i.e. no change, so that VD can handle all the resizing. VD squashes the on-screen preview because it doesn't recognise the non-square pixels, but don't let this bother you, because you will get the correct geometry back after resizing to 720x480 and making a 16:9 DVD.

I certainly would not want to upsize to 1920x1080 just to resize back to SD resolution again.

Richard

Very true Richard, very true.

Perrone,

Are you shooting 1080/30p with your EX1 and creating interlaced SD DVDs from that or are you shooting 1080/60i?

Thanks,

John

I don't generally have to create DVDs from stuff I shoot. Occasionally, but not often. The last DVD project I shot, I did create 60i DVDs from 1080p/30 though. Generally, my delivery is for the web, and I shoot 24p. I shot 720/60p for a project last month but that was not DVD delivery.

Hi Guys

Just for interest I'm shooting in AVCHD 1920x1080i and due to a lack of CPU power I am currently transcoding to a variety of formats to see what works best. I have tried a variety of codecs to AVI and also the little package called Upshift which transcodes to a 50mbs M2t file.
In Vegas, rendering all the different footages to a standard PAL Widescreen Mpeg2 I must admit that it was hard to tell the difference but the M2t transcoded file had a definate edge!!
I don't use DVA as an authoring program but rather use DVDLab and the end result is pretty good and more importantly the workflow is almost as quick as SD!!!

Chris

Dennis:

There is quite a bit of gridding in the virtual dub image. Im not sure if that would be usable for me. The good thing is that there is not much moire effect.

I'm learning here so be kind. I shoot a 5D MK2 with RODE mic which produces .MOV - then convert the MOV to Cineform 720 AVIs.....which feom reading the thread is lossy :-(

Any how i edit with Sony Vegas Studio 9 PE....to MP4

I'd like to produce a great looking DVD that can be played in a regular DVD player since most folks don't have BluRay players yet.....could someone point me to the thread that tells me the best way to do that...

The DVD Architect (from Vegas9 export) produced a totally crappy donversion that wasn't watchable....Do i need to be rendering to MP2?

Please be kind and point me to the correct thread.....

TIA
Harry

Help us understand what you're doing?

You start with a native .MOV file.

You convert that to Cineform (why?)

You convert that to MP4 (why?)

You put the .MP4 files into DVDA and convert to .MPG for DVDs.


At what step in this workflow do you go from HD to SD? Why are you converting your file so many times?

I should point out that the images that I provided were a small section of the SD screen grab blown up - I picked the bit with the girl's hair that was backlit by the sun to show the finest detail part of the grab - so don't judge the images as an actual whole SD frame.

<<Help us understand what you're doing?>>
<<You start with a native .MOV file
<<You convert that to Cineform (why?).>>
Because the avi produced makes editing on a PC running Vegas smoother

<<You convert that to MP4 (why?)>>
I had been producing WMVs and uploading to Vimeo, YouTube and SmugMug and these all prefer to convert from MP4s

<<At what step in this workflow do you go from HD to SD?>>
Still trying to figure that out - I did the ol Vegas export to DVD Architect and it burned to DVD which i tried to place into a player for my HDTV and though i realized it would not be HD it looked terrible.

Why are you converting your file so many times?
Convert ftom MOV to AVI for editing (Cineform allows smooth playback in editor)
Render edited AVI to MP4 final file (720 not 1080)

I went to MP4 cause one person said they could not get SmugMug uploaded video to play period (that turned out to be a bug on SmugMugs part)

I would like to be able to produce a DVD that looked good for playback on most DVD players just as an alternative means of distribution. Write now I must just load the MP4s onto a DVD data disk and simply ask user to copy to their hard drive and play in VLC.

So the MP4 was to get the most quality in the smallest size for web and compter viewing.

Now if i want to produce the best quality to burn to a DVD for playback in a standard entertainment system i don't mind extra work i just need the knowledge to do so. The thread here is super though over my head at times....Thanks!!

Harry

Ok, I see where you're at.

Workflow should look like this:

1. Convert to Cineform
2. Finish editing
3. Produce MP4 for uploads
4. Bring Cineform file into Virtualdub and resize with Lanczos scaler.
5. Export Lagarith or HuffYUV compressed AVI
6. Bring avi from step 5 into DVDA and make your disk.

Alternately, you could bring the avi back into Vegas (or tmpenc) and cut your mpeg2 for DVD there along with separate audio. Either method will work.

Thanks this is great info.

So the mp4 is just as good as the MP2 for DVD creation? Is the MP2 always keep the audio seperate then.

DVDA is DVD Architect i assume....I need to ramp up on using it too - usually just have one video clip to burn so don't need all the chapters etc......

Thanks - i'll try this this afternoon.

Harry

Excellent thread - useful advise.

Would any of the discussion so far relate to converting 1080i to 720p - for example to convert footage shot on a Canon XHA1 1080 25f over to 720p ?

Couple of clarifications please...

1. Convert to Cineform
2. Finish editing
3. Produce MP4 for uploads (good til here)
4. Bring Cineform file into Virtualdub and resize with Lanczos scaler. (the Cineform file is pre edited avi. Don't i need work with my completed edited version but it's in MP4 - Can i bring the MP4 into Virtualdub?)
5. Export Lagarith or HuffYUV compressed AVI
6. Bring avi from step 5 into DVDA and make your disk.

No. MP4 is NOT a valid type for creating DVDs. ONLY Mpeg2 is. So if you bring an Mpeg4 file into your DVD authoring program, it will convert it on the spot to Mpeg2, thus causing further loss of quality.

Yes DVDA is DVD Architect. If you open that application, choose New > Single Movie. It will let you select a video and audio file. It will not create a menu or separate chapters. It just makes a simple DVD that auto-plays when inserted into a DVD player.

Virtualdub ONLY understand .avi files (and a couple specialized files with some hacks) so you will need to create an .avi master to bring into virtualdub. This should be done with a lossless .avi codec like Lagarith, HuffYUV, or uncompressed. Cineform is also a legal type to bring into Virtualdub, but it is not lossless.

Perrone don't shoot me! I'm close to being dangerous with this new knowledge. Couple more questions then i promise i'll figure out the rest.

So what i have so far is this:
1. Convert 1080 .MOV into 720 .AVI (take the lossy hit)
2. Edit video, add titles, cross fades, credits, whatever - finish content of movie.
3. Render in Vegas Studio to ? (.AVI again?)
4. Bring finished rendered .AVI into Virtualdub and resize (what size?) with Lanczos scaler.
5. Within Virtualdub, export a Lagarith or HuffYUV compressed AVI
6. Bring that into DVDA and select single movie and it will automatically convert it to a MP2 for DVD burn.

What am i missing?

Thank you for your patience
Harry

Does not have to be lossy, but if you want Cineform on the timeline, then yes it's slightly lossy. There are ways around this, but it's beyond the scope of this thread, and has been discussed at length on this forum. Basically it's the offline/online editing workflow and is lossless while still giving speed on the timeline.

Correct

Render to mpeg4 for your upload to smugmug, then render in HuffYUV or Lagarith lossless to import into VirtualDub.

NTSC size is 720x480.

Correct

Correct.

Did you by any chance test it on a CRT TV? I am going crazy trying to get SD DVD free from aliasing and twitter from 1080/30p EX1 footage.

If yes, how did you do it?

Thanks,

John

My editing machine previews out to a JVC Professional 14" calibrated monitor. I don't do anything special, and don't have twitter or aliasing issues.

I use the JVC 15 inch professional CRT calibrated monitor, but I see the problems. When you say you don't do anything special, how are you interlacing the footage? Are you resizing using the method you described using Virtual Dub resize first and then interlacing using AE? Have you viewed it on a standard CRT television played from a regular DVD player?

John

When I bring the material into DVD Architect, I get asked what kind of DVD I want to create. I choose NTSC 60i. I don't do anything beyond this. But maybe your source material is different than mine.

I generally write 30 minutes to a DVD RW to take home and check colors, sound, etc on a normal SDTV. I then check the DVD on our 72" plasmas at the office. If I like it, I burn the full project.

So my 5D Mk2 shoots 1080/30fps so should i produce an AVI in Vegas at that? (ie no resizing) I had been rendering in Vegas to 720.

I did find Lanczos scaler.
Where is the HuffYUV or Lagarith lossless in Vegas and in VirtualDub. I've spent hours looking for those suckas!!

Thanks